Review of judges?

[BestLegUp]

Does anyone know of a website that posts reviews/comments on the performance of judges? Not looking for nasty but intel; e.g., “this judge will penalize a simple lead change far higher than maintaining the wrong lead around the entire turn.” It would also be nice to know that a certain judge(s) seem to have a habit of pinning riders despite their having gone off course. Positive reviews would be helpful too.

FYI - I do not have any particular judge in mind at the moment. Its worse than that. I keep observing poor judging; judging that does not seem to conform to the standards in the rule book; judges that don’t seem to know an equitation class is judged on different standards than a hunter class. Yes, I know hunters and equitation have a subjective component. But there are some objective standards too. And when the judge’s opinion frequently doesn’t comport to the consensus opinion of the trainers at the in-gate, the judge’s opinions are wrong. It would be nice to get some feedback mechanism so that good judges get rewarded and bad judges get skipped.

Anyway, if you know of a rating website or other place to find such info about judges, I would love to hear about it.

[snaffle635]

I’m not aware of a Yelp for judges. I suppose it wouldn’t be all that hard to start one on your own, but I just can’t imagine it would be very useful. It’s hard to imagine the feedback would be very constructive or useful.

The vast majority of complaining about judges is based on lack of education by the complainer. (I say this having complained on occasion and been corrected by friends or trainers who understood and supported the judge’s decision. I’ve also learned that judging is incredibly difficult and they sometimes make mistakes. Sometimes you’re the beneficiary of those errors and sometimes your ribbon gets awarded to someone else. )

In terms of figuring out a judge’s preferences, it takes time and experience. Watch the classes before yours. Talk to your trainer. Make notes.

BTW, a judge should penalize a simple change far higher than maintaining the wrong lead around the corner. The former is a break in pace* and is a worse fault than a wrong lead.

*I originally said ‘pace’, but should have said ‘gait’.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;8295701]

The vast majority of complaining about judges is based on lack of education by the complainer. (I say this having complained on occasion and been corrected by friends or trainers who understood and supported the judge’s decision.

BTW, a judge should penalize a simple change far higher than maintaining the wrong lead around the corner. The former is a break in pace and is a worse fault than a wrong lead.[/QUOTE]

I could not agree more with what is being said. Sometimes, it isn’t a matter of what our personal preferences are, but what is being put in front of us for that class and having to decide which rider errors are more costly than others…or which errors we find more offensive to our personal tastes than others. Other classes, there may be quite a few fabulous rounds and then it comes down to personal preference. But honestly, unless you have watched every single ride in every single class…and watched it from the vantage point of the judge…it is really hard to critique most judges. The view you have from the sideline may be very different than the view from inside the judges booth.

As noted above, as far as judges penalizing a simple change over no change, this is the correct thing for a judge to do! USEF has their rulebook online. You can also view it on your phone. If you look at rule HU136, it describes how a judge scores a hunter round. Both missing a lead change and breaking gait on course are listed under major faults. At any hunter judging clinics, it is taught that a break in gait on course is normally an automatic score of 55. A missed lead change isn’t scored quite as severely. So if you are not happy about that, you’ll have to talk to USEF in regards to changing their educational clinics.

A competitor is always welcome to contact USEF after a show in regards to a judge…but please make sure you’ve read through the USEF rulebook first and understand what you may or may not be complaining about. Are there less than stellar judges out there? Of course. No different than there are poor lawyers, doctors…or any other professional. But the vast majority are knowledgeable and try very hard to pick the correct horses in each class. Unfortunately, with hunter judging comes critiquing style, way of going and personal preference…and that can be hard to pinpoint down for most judging, as it often depends on the rounds that are presented to that judge on that day.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295633]
And when the judge’s opinion frequently doesn’t comport to the consensus opinion of the trainers at the in-gate, the judge’s opinions are wrong.[/QUOTE]

Really? :rolleyes: Everyone seems to feel their rider was the best and everyone is a critic. Unless those trainers were at the ring and watched every single round, there’s no way to have an accurate opinion on how the class placed. I would suggest anyone thinking classes are consistently not getting pinned properly should send in a judges evaluation to USEF…or submit an application for the USEF Hunter judges program and work their way up through the officiating levels so we can make sure to have accurate judging at shows. Because, of course, trainer opinions at the in-gate far outweighs what a judge is seeing from their judging booth.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295633]
It would also be nice to know that a certain judge(s) seem to have a habit of pinning riders despite their having gone off course. [/QUOTE]

This will happen occasionally to even the best judges. But no judge has a ‘habit’ of pinning off course riders. Off course is not a tie breaker, it is elimination.

[Tackpud]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295633]

And when the judge’s opinion frequently doesn’t comport to the consensus opinion of the trainers at the in-gate, the judge’s opinions are wrong.[/QUOTE]

The judge’s opinion is the only one that matters in the class. The judge is hired to give their opinion on a certain day in time, on certain rounds that they see in front of them, based on their observations. The trainers at the in-gate have no say in the results.

[BestLegUp]

So, that’s a “no” there is no review site for judges?

Why is it when you post on here, people enjoy assuming that you are uneducated or an idiot.

Daventry - a little sensitive about critiquing judges are we? Yet you eventually agree that some are good and some are bad. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had some data to help identify the better from the worse?

BTW - I didn’t say pinning a wrong lead over a simple change was wrong or, for that matter, that it was a hunter class being judged. How presumptuous of you. I am, however, well aware that both are major faults in a hunter class per the Rule HU136.2. That is the point - both are equally bad under the rule, so a judge can see one as worse than the other based on (i) execution or (ii) a per se hierarchy.

To future posters, if you know of a review/feedback site for judges, please let this post know. If you don’t know of one - please don’t try to tell me why we don’t need one. Thanks

[rizzodm]

Here is one for dressage…

http://www.dressagedetective.com/about-judge-reports/

[AmmyByNature]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295890]
So, that’s a “no” there is no review site for judges?

Why is it when you post on here, people enjoy assuming that you are uneducated or an idiot.

Daventry - a little sensitive about critiquing judges are we? Yet you eventually agree that some are good and some are bad. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had some data to help identify the better from the worse?

BTW - I didn’t say pinning a wrong lead over a simple change was wrong or, for that matter, that it was a hunter class being judged. How presumptuous of you. I am, however, well aware that both are major faults in a hunter class per the Rule HU136.2. That is the point - both are equally bad under the rule, so a judge can see one as worse than the other based on (i) execution or (ii) a per se hierarchy.

To future posters, if you know of a review/feedback site for judges, please let this post know. If you don’t know of one - please don’t try to tell me why we don’t need one. Thanks[/QUOTE]

We have only your words to go on, so when you say something that is uneducated, we assume that you are uneducated. Your comments about incorrect leads are uneducated, as are your opinions about the consensus at the in gate.

No one called you an idiot - but I have no idea what else you’re planning on posting today.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=rizzodm;8295917]
Here is one for dressage…

http://www.dressagedetective.com/about-judge-reports/[/QUOTE]

Which works for licensed dressage shows with licensed judges. But the OP is talking about people regularly going off course, missing changes, and doing simple changes on course, which makes me think she’s probably not talking about licensed/rated shows, so often not licensed judges. Which then does raise the question of how much experience & training they’ve had, but would make any kind of critiquing system difficult, since unlike licensed judges, there’s not a list of people to choose from.

[MHM]

@BestLegUp;8295890

HU136.2. That is the point - both are equally bad under the rule, so a judge can see one as worse than the other based on (i) execution or (ii) a per se hierarchy.

Except that as another poster stated, it is clearly defined at every USEF judges’ clinic that a trot constitutes a break in gait, which always scores lower than staying in the canter on the wrong lead, barring a more major fault in the round.

Perhaps someone could come up with an app like Tinder, so those who know their horse will trot the changes or add a stride can swipe right on the appropriate judge.

[copper1]

I won a class even though I was off course once! The two courses were very similar (my excuse!!!) and when I refused the ribbon the judge came out and asked what was up. cost me the championship at that show but I do try to maintain my integrity! Was a well known and experienced judge too so they are human and make mistakes too.
If you are at a rated show there are judge evaluation forms to fill out where you can talk about the problem you had with a judge. They are also there when you are very pleased with a judges performance. If your complaint is legitimate USEF will look into it but they would probably not pay much attention if one were to second guess the placings or something similar

[jlphilli]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;8295701]

The vast majority of complaining about judges is based on lack of education by the complainer. .[/QUOTE]

I agree ^. I can see a judge review website doing more harm than good (for reasons I’m sure you all know).

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Tackpud;8295799]
The judge’s opinion is the only one that matters in the class. The judge is hired to give their opinion on a certain day in time, on certain rounds that they see in front of them, based on their observations. The trainers at the in-gate have no say in the results.[/QUOTE]
Brilliant post and right on.

I think most trainers have judges they prefer their riders show under versus other judges.
OP, it might be worth simply asking your trainer before you sign up for a show if they have an opinion on the judge listed in the prize list.

I have found at the rated show level the judging is pretty darn consistent. At open type shows the judging is all over the board and that is most likely because those judges might have a different background than you as a rider have. For example, a stock breed judge might like a different way of going than a person who usually does hunter type shows.

ETA, I simply can not see how a list online will help anyone. I know I would not put much weight to what it would say. After hearing people comment and reading various threads about how they were wronged by the judge (versus what I saw live with my own eyes or in videos they posted), I feel for the judges and what they have to put up with.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;8295890]

That is the point - both are equally bad under the rule, so a judge can see one as worse than the other based on (i) execution or (ii) a per se hierarchy. [/QUOTE]

No, they are not.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=MHM;8296092]

Perhaps someone could come up with an app like Tinder, so those who know their horse will trot the changes or add a stride can swipe right on the appropriate judge.[/QUOTE]

snork

[vxf111]

I’d like to know what shows you attend that have consensus at the gate.

[M_O_Connor]

No need to hire a judge if the consensus at the gate is better at the job!

[MintHillFarm]

[QUOTE=Daventry;8295716]
I could not agree more with what is being said. Sometimes, it isn’t a matter of what our personal preferences are, but what is being put in front of us for that class and having to decide which rider errors are more costly than others…or which errors we find more offensive to our personal tastes than others. Other classes, there may be quite a few fabulous rounds and then it comes down to personal preference. But honestly, unless you have watched every single ride in every single class…and watched it from the vantage point of the judge…it is really hard to critique most judges. The view you have from the sideline may be very different than the view from inside the judges booth.

As noted above, as far as judges penalizing a simple change over no change, this is the correct thing for a judge to do! USEF has their rulebook online. You can also view it on your phone. If you look at rule HU136, it describes how a judge scores a hunter round. Both missing a lead change and breaking gait on course are listed under major faults. At any hunter judging clinics, it is taught that a break in gait on course is normally an automatic score of 55. A missed lead change isn’t scored quite as severely. So if you are not happy about that, you’ll have to talk to USEF in regards to changing their educational clinics.

A competitor is always welcome to contact USEF after a show in regards to a judge…but please make sure you’ve read through the USEF rulebook first and understand what you may or may not be complaining about. Are there less than stellar judges out there? Of course. No different than there are poor lawyers, doctors…or any other professional. But the vast majority are knowledgeable and try very hard to pick the correct horses in each class. Unfortunately, with hunter judging comes critiquing style, way of going and personal preference…and that can be hard to pinpoint down for most judging, as it often depends on the rounds that are presented to that judge on that day.[/QUOTE]

Well put, Daventry! And at times we do have to look down to mark the card as well…Again, unless one is sitting in the same spot as the judge, watching every single trip, it can be difficult to form an opinion at the in-gate…

[MHM]

[QUOTE=MintHillFarm;8296254]
Again, unless one is sitting in the same spot as the judge, watching every single trip, it can be difficult to form an opinion at the in-gate…[/QUOTE]
I beg to differ.

It’s extremely easy to form an opinion at the gate, as we’ve seen here countless times over the years.

The difficult part is forming an accurate opinion at the gate. :lol: