revisiting mini carts

[MySparrow]

Our new-cart-for-Little-River project was put on hold when Cedar was injured, but we’re all go again. We have looked at so many carts!!! And we just haven’t found “the one.” This is what we’re looking for:

wooden wheels – preferably 2 of them (or steel that look like wood)
well-balanced, with seat position adjustment to accommodate balance changes
light enough for Little River to pull and Becky to handle alone
reasonably priced (around $1,000)
sturdy enough to bounce around in my pasture but comfortable on roads

seems easy enough. But every cart we look at has some element that we don’t like. The seat adjustment either doesn’t exist or requires tools. The cart is called an easy entry but in fact has shafts that run across the sides like a meadowbrook, albeit lower (Becky calls these an “easier entry”). Or they’re too expensive. Or they’re just plain ugly.

Would you mini drivers out there mind telling me once more what you like about your carts?
Many thanks!

Dale

[olehossgal]

Dale, I have researched Miniature horse carts about as much as anybody, I imagine–and I have to say, I’m not sure all that you want is available in a cart that doesn’t cost over $1000…!
How tall is the mini you refer to, and of what build? That’s going to be a big factor, IMO. Your description of what you want best matches my Bennington, from England–but it costs considerably more than that(esp. when shipping is factored in!)-and is better for horses 34" and over, IMO.(I use it mostly on a 38" mare, though I have hooked it to one of my 34"ers once or twice.) It weighs @ 110 lbs. Bellcrown USA is an ‘easier entry’, well-made, costlier, weighs @ 105 lbs.; the Pacific ‘Smart Cart’ has gone up to over $2K in price(and in my mind, is still just a bit heavy for smaller minis-under 34", actually-it weighs around 115 lbs.) I don’t know about the details of the seat adjustment of the last two; the Benny does have seat adjustment w/o tools, has LOVELY balance and a WONDERFULLY comfortable and deep-enough, seat!
I also own a wooden Road Cart made by John Stoltzfus of Pequea Carriage Shop in PA(no website, but I do have a phone no., which I can send privately, if you want it.)The Road cart is very nice, rides nicely,seat adjusts w/o tools-but is not an ‘easy entry’.It also costs a deal over $1000. I have his brochures; I think he and/or his brother may build carts sold by Silver Penney Farm–and am pretty sure his brother builds the ones sold by Country Carriages–they appeal identical to mine built by John, but awhile back, cost a couple hundred more from Country Carriages…
I have read on other driving/mini forums that numerous people seem to like the kind of cart sold by Silver Penney(and as I said, made by one of the Stotzfus’, I believe.) They appear to be a basic EE cart,and have ‘pipe’ shaves, but w/ wooden basket and ?? elliptical springs(?-not sure of the proper terminology, but has elliptical springs that run parallel to the shafts and perpendicular to the seat). This causes the springs to ‘stick out’ behind the back of the cart, and that look doesn’t appeal to me, personally, so would not be my choice, but…? Don’t know other details about the construction, except that they ARE easy entry, they have high draft, and the same shallow seat that the less-expensive but very similar ‘all-pipe’ carts,like the Frontier(my choice of that type of cart, BTW) have. In the Pequea brochures there is also a little Meadowbrook ‘style’ wooden cart-not an EE, and(several years ago,so almost certainly higher now!), priced @ $850.My road cart does have a slightly deeper and more comfortable seat; all of the others from Pequea that I’ve referred to appear to have a similar, shallow(only around 11" ‘deep’, front to back!, and minimally padded–2" foam"; my Benny has 3" ultra dense, and WHAT a difference it makes! I think Bellcrown and Pacific also have similarly-padded, and somewhat deeper, seats), common in the ‘all-pipe’ and similar EE carts. Even the “Eazy Rider” carts, which have a hydraulic suspension, appear in other ways very similar to the less-expensive ‘all-pipe’ EE carts, and what appears to be a very similar shallow and 2" foam-padded, seat-and they are well over $1000, too. I don’t know about others, but the comfort of the seat REALLY makes a difference to me, esp. when driving for several hours!!
I am in the process of ordering a cart from Mike G. at IteBte; I am a ‘sucker’ for good equipment, and am after a lighter,overall ‘smaller’ ,yet maneuverable-in a way that my Frontier will NEVER BE!-cart for my smaller 32-34" driving horses, as I feel the Benny, as much as I like it, is still a bit large for them.)He began by building little 4-pneumatic-wheeled buggies(not my cup of tea at all!)-but he has ventured into marathon/all purpose metal carts, most similar to the Bellcrown. He is very willing to learn, and is trying some innovative ideas, and is also custom building according to customer desires. He told me he will be having to increase prices after the first of the year-and was already over $1K, though notably less expensive than the Benny, the Bellcrown, and the ‘Smart Cart’. A lady in WA state has recently announced the development of a super lightweight marathon-type metal cart for minis, w/ metal wheels, torsion suspension(I think!), and low draft–but in the one photo I’ve seen, it still has the shallow, minimally-padded seat–and is @ $1500, if memory serves! There are also several other overseas makers of carts, but most still appear not as light as you’d wish, and 'way more expensive than your stated price range…
Conclusion? It is STILL really hard to find the ‘ideal’ miniature cart or carriage! Things are ‘looking up’, for sure, but we aren’t ‘there’ yet, IMO!
My suggestion? That your best bet might be to look at the Pequea/Silver Penney carts, given the parameters you mentioned.
Good luck!

Margo in NM

[MySparrow]

Thanks, Margo for that exhaustive commentary. Little River is 30" tall and lightly built. She pulled Bob Giles, who is substantially built, through sand around the obstacle and cone courses at the National Drive and made a fair rate of knots, so she’s a powerful little mite, but still, we’d like to minimize her load as much as possible. Becky’s resistant to four wheels because they’re hard for her to manage and store (she carries LR in the back of her Dodge van, and the cart on the roof).

I’ll share this information with her. I know she’ll appreciate your help.

BTW, my daughter is now living in Albuquerque and working at the Old Town Stables part-time, subbing in the charter schools the rest of the time. I’d love to get you two togther!

Dale

[hobbyhorse23]

Margo, Margo, Margo…

…Get over the seat thing! :no: :lol: (I’m allowed to tease her folks as this is a recurring friendly discussion between us on several boards.) The 3" thick dense seat which works so well for you makes others of us bounce right out of the cart because they give so little. I like my cushions to actually cushion, thank you! LOL

Anyway, on a more serious note…

Sparrow, are you sure you’re remembering the right measurement for Little River? I met her at the National Drive and she didn’t seem nearly that small, plus I remember Becky telling me she was of a similar height to Kody who is 33.5". I still think Kody is the more finely built of the two (not a good thing) so I run into similar problems with trying to choose a light cart. Becky isn’t that much larger than I am so I think our concerns are going to be similar.

Give me a few more details to work with. Can you put those criteria in order of importance to you? Does Becky want an easy entry cart for instance, or just one that’s pretty easy to get in and out of? Is she going to be using it for pleasure shows, CDE’s, or strictly goofing off? Is she concerned about easy adjustability on the balance because she’s going to be taking passengers for long drives fairly frequently? Does she want wood for the look or because she thinks metal wheels are too heavy for the size? (A reasonable concern on a mini cart, to be sure.) Does she want the ability to carry cargo like a picnic basket or camera? I’ve got some thoughts for you guys but a lot depends on the kind of things I’m inquiring about above.

I wouldn’t go with a four-wheeler even if Becky could fit one in the van. While they keep the weight off the horse on flat ground and brakes might help going downhill, she’d be pulled to her knees going uphill! They just don’t make them light enough for a single mini yet. Heck, with Little River’s new harness you’re going to have to stick with horizontal draft as it is. Nope, I’d keep it simple.

Leia

[SLW]

I have two carts from Silver Penny- the Show Pleasure and the Easy Entry. They are well made, comfortable for the driver and my mini’s seem to pull them comfortably. IMO, the Easy Entry feels heavier perhaps because there is a little more metal to the frame. They arrive needing to be assembled.

These photos were at the first CDE I did w/ them in September. The 35" appy is pulling the Show Pleasure and the 32" pinto is pulling the Easy Entry. The laid back pinto is maxed out weight wise once off level ground, IMO, while the electric appy is postively fine with the combined driver/cart weight. http://pets.webshots.com/album/560813811uAnTMe

There are many great cart vendors available so you’ll have plenty of quality products to select from! Good luck!

[MySparrow]

Hey, Leia, I was hoping you would respond (chuckling about the seat thing. For those who don’t know her, Leia is really, really, really small and delicately built. Strong and quick as a hummingbird!).

Before she met Bob Giles, Becky only wanted to tool around on quiet roads with Little River and work around my obstacle course on bumpy grass. Bob told her she ought to show the little mare, so that idea is in there somewhere. But for the most part, she’ll be driving on asphalt, driving on dirt, bouncing around my paddock (hope to get it a little more level this winter, but it will never be smooth) and driving on the wider paths in the woods (also pretty bouncy in places). At my place we work in dressage figures and run obstacles and cones along with roadwork. At Becky’s house it’s all roadwork. I don’t see her doing CDEs, though I wouldn’t rule it out completely.

She likes wooden wheels because she prefers the look. I’ve just about convinced her that steel wheels are equally good, weight being a factor.

She likes the easy-entry idea and is fearful of being “trapped” in the cart.

She rarely takes passengers, but it’s a possibility. More to the point, her current cart doesn’t rebalance at all, and is the wrong balance for Little River no matter who is sitting in the seat. To get the shafts neutral in weight, I have to stand behind the cart and push backwards on the seat back! She would probably love to carry a picnic basket, but I don’t think the idea has yet occurred to her.

I’m a little concerned about the inertia of the cart on hills, both up and down, so I don’t want it to be too heavy. While Becky is learning she sometimes lets LR get a little quick down hills, and there ensues the terrifying vision of the cart chasing the horse. We’re working on that issue, but for safety’s sake and for Little River’s strength I want them to have a light cart!

I think you’re right about the mare’s size. Not sure why I typed 30"!~

There’s probably a little stretch on price.

Thanks, Leia!!!

[hobbyhorse23]

Alright, well let’s see here then. Keep in mind I’m not sure what you’ve looked at so forgive me if I suggest something you’ve already ruled out for one reason or another.

As is evidenced by the disagreements on what constitutes a comfortable seat :winkgrin: what works for one person may not work for another. I’ve found that for me at least torsion axles give the best ride. The worse the ground gets, the more you notice the difference, and believe me I do an awful lot of cross-country with my VSE! Carts I know of that have those are the Ite Bte, the Bellcrown, the Edgeman (now discontinued), and I believe the new Scotsman cart that Margo mentioned has just been released. The Pacific uses an air suspension system which gives a similar ride. Now the problem is that most of those carts are more than a bit over her stated price-range and most, being all metal, are fairly heavy although not at all unreasonable for most minis.

For sheer lightness you absolutely can’t beat the Graham Carriage Works Hyperbike. It’s about 27lbs, comes apart without tools for travel, is strong, sturdy, safe, and utterly enjoyable for horse and driver. It’s also in her price range even with the recent price increase. It comes balanced for the particular driver or you can buy it with a sliding seat (again, no tools required) which can be balanced for any individual. This is possibly the best off-road vehicle I’ve ever driven as it’s nearly impossible to tip over, you can turn on a dime and give back change, and if you run into an obstacle like a downed tree in your path you can simply lift the vehicle over it without even unhitching! Can you tell I love my Hyperbike? Here’s a picture of Kody and me in ours the first year we had it. This was out on marathon at a Happ’s schooling show.

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a108/Spyderwind/?action=view&current=HyperbikeVSEDTT0601.jpg

The only problem with that one is that it’s not suitable for show and you can’t take passengers. You can get a bag to suspend below the seat for carrying stuff but I prefer to simply wear a fanny pack on trail drives as it’s easier to access.

For seat balance, I only know of one style of balance adjustment that does not require tools and that’s a seat slider. My Edgeman had one but once I had it set for me I never touched it again. My Bellcrown has adjustments both at the axle and to a limited extent at the seat but again, once I got it adjusted for me I’ve never changed it so I don’t particularly mind that it takes tools to do so. For the miniscule amount of time I carry passengers it’s not worth worrying about the balance. That’s why I make sure my horse has a comfortable harness! He can handle five minutes of walking on flat ground with an unbalanced cart without strain and that’s the most I ever ask him to do. I think some of the wooden carts have seat sliders as well but I’m not sure.

I’ve found that no matter what the actual weight of the vehicle the wooden ones always feel lighter in your hand. My Bellcrown balances marvelously and I think is actually lighter than some of the wooden carts I’ve lifted due to the smaller wheels, but somehow in lifting the shafts of most wooden carts they always feel easier to handle. I really do like the Silver Penny Farms show/pleasure cart, it’s a beautiful vehicle and isn’t too heavy. The other brand I would strongly recommend is a Graber. The tradeoff with the wooden vehicles is that they are usually fairly bouncy and can be quite loud, but on the other hand they are gorgeous and can achieve much greater wheel sizes without adding much more weight. Grabers do not have a balancing mechanism as far as I am aware but I own one of their pneumatic-tired show carts and I have no trouble balancing it for Kody. As long as you have the shafts at the right height they are truly meant to put most of the weight on the wheels and it’s easy to sit so there is no upward tug either. It doesn’t work for everyone, but if you have an active seat and are aware of balance at all times it can be quite a good option. Those two types of wooden carts are also in her price-range, the problem with the Graber might be the suspension (also an issue with the SPF cart) and the fact that Grabers are single-seaters.

There are a lot of tradeoffs with mini vehicles and the most iron-clad one I’ve found so far is that to keep the weight down you really do need to be willing to forgo the ability to take passengers. The only carts I’ve found that I felt were truly light were the single-seaters. If you do want to take passengers I would choose the SPF cart or one of the Frontier easy entries. I know those are supposed to be starter carts but the more I look the more they really are the best basic mini cart on the market. You can always add steel wheels to make them more sturdy for trails as the tires are inevitably the weakest point.

Good luck, and let me know if you need links to any of the above carts! I’ve got pictures of all the vehicles I’m mentioning and then some.

Leia

[MySparrow]

Thanks, Leia!

That is a very helpful response.

I’m actually quite taken with the Bellcrown, but I’ve been in correspondence with the Graham Carriages people and they’re very approachable. But they have wire wheels, and Becky’s really got wooden (or steel, second choice) wheels in mind.

If I had the money in hand I’d buy the hyperbike so Sparrow and I could do the woods trails! But I don’t have the money. Sigh.

I’ll let you know what Becky decides, and also post any further questions she has. I’m excited to get a new cart for Little River. I know she’ll be much happier!

Dale

[MySparrow]

Oh, I forgot to add: links and pics would be very very helpful!!! The Graber, for example, is one that has never come up in a Google search, so I have no clue what it is!

[system]

Ite Bte Buggy

I have noted that my carts have been mentioned a couple times in this thread so wanted to offer an update regarding the CDE cart and a new vehicle we will be testing in the next couple of weeks.

The Missouri Flyer CDE cart weighs in at 106 lbs with 24 inch by 1 inch wheels. By using one inch wide wheels I have reduced wheel weight by about as much as is possible and been able to maintain needed strength. Unlike previous Ite Bte carts I have now begun using wood for the dash, floors and single tree. These changes have also aided in weight reduction. I continue to use the nice torsion axles and automobile seat sliders to insure as comfortable a ride as possible. I see many comments on the necessity of seat adjustment. Interestingly, some drivers feel the need for seat adjustment so that the cart is comfortable for them with sufficient leg room. In reality, seat adjustment is necessary to balance the cart with different drivers and size horses, a cart used by the same driver and horse seldom needs any seat adjustment.

I enjoy experimenting with different configurations of carts. I am currently building a cart for Donna Stormer that has 30 inch wheels. The 30 inch wheels will ride exceptionally smooth and pull easier than one with smaller wheels. We are hopeful that the easier roll of the larger wheels will offset the increase in weight of the wheels. The 30 inch wheels will raise the draft of the cart, provide greater ground clearance and offer a truly unique look in a miniature horse cart. However at the same time will keep the seat height the same as carts with smaller wheels.

I am also currently building a sulky for Cris Anderson which is also unique for a sulky. It does not compete in weight to Leia’s hyperbike but does provide some unique characteristics that we are testing. The sulky is equipped with independent wheel brakes. This will allow the driver to “help” the horse around on sharp turns. For any of you who have driven a farm tractor with independent brakes and tricycle front end know that when making a sharp turn applying the inside brake makes the turn sharper and quicker. We are applying the same principle to the sulky. The sulky will also have foam tires rather than the standard No Mor Flats commonly seen. The foam tires contain no air, are very durable and also cushion the ride which No Mor Flats do not do. The sulky should be completed in the next two weeks and will under go rugged testing to tweak the design.

These are the current activities that Ite Bte Buggys has under construction to think a bit out of the box in miniature vehicles. If anyone has any questions or just wants to talk carts feel free e-mail me or phone. Contact info is on my website.

Drive on, Mike

[MySparrow]

Mike, thanks for chiming in. I have forwarded your comments to my client, and I expect she’ll be contacting you after Christmas.

I note your comment about balancing the seat and I agree that it should not be necessary for one driver, one horse: but that assumes that the cart is correctly balanced for the horse in the first place, which Becky’s current cart is not.

I’m learning a lot as we pursue this purchase! Thanks to everyone for your help.

[hobbyhorse23]

Mike, way cool!

It’s great to hear an update on what you’ve been up to. I know I’ve gotten too involved with this sport when I’ve competed with both the people you’ve named, have talked extensively with Donna about her cart, and will have to try and beat Cris in her’s next year! Her little mare is already a holy terror in the hazards…you’re not helping! :lol:

Dale, I’m not sure Bob makes the Hyperbike any larger than pony size. I think it’s pretty much a mini vehicle! In other words, good for River, bad for Sparrow.

As for links, let’s see here. The SPF carts are at http://www.ccfdriving.atfreeweb.com/ and there’s a wide variety of nice pictures available under their new customer pictures gallery. Pam is great to talk to.

Examples of Graber carts are available at this website: http://www.katelandfarm.com/vehicles_for_sale.htm
…although I’ve been told it’s cheaper to buy them over the phone straight from Graber. Being Amish of course they don’t have a website. There are more pictures of Graber carts under Kateland’s “Horses for Sale” pages if you’d like to see them in action. Be sure to scroll down and look at their pair vehicles! Wow.

Here’s a shot of Kody and I in our pneumatic Graber show cart this last summer.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a108/Spyderwind/Evergreen%20AMHR%202007/IMG_7932web.jpg

Were there any other ones you needed?

Leia

[MSP]

[QUOTE=MySparrow;2878806]
Our new-cart-for-Little-River project was put on hold when Cedar was injured, but we’re all go again. We have looked at so many carts!!! And we just haven’t found “the one.” This is what we’re looking for:

wooden wheels – preferably 2 of them (or steel that look like wood)
well-balanced, with seat position adjustment to accommodate balance changes
light enough for Little River to pull and Becky to handle alone
reasonably priced (around $1,000)
sturdy enough to bounce around in my pasture but comfortable on roads

seems easy enough. But every cart we look at has some element that we don’t like. The seat adjustment either doesn’t exist or requires tools. The cart is called an easy entry but in fact has shafts that run across the sides like a meadowbrook, albeit lower (Becky calls these an “easier entry”). Or they’re too expensive. Or they’re just plain ugly.

Would you mini drivers out there mind telling me once more what you like about your carts?
Many thanks!

Dale[/QUOTE]

I am a Jerald fan (racing world), its what I am used to, I believe my jog cart is a Jerald. Any how they have a wooden wheeled cart but wood cost. I Thought I would post it for consideration. They do have an easy entry cart that is in the price range but no wooden wheels.

Jerald Roadmaster AM/49 Open-Wheeled Cart with wooden wheels http://www.kee-port.com/miniaturepleasurecarts.htm scroll down

Runabout https://jeraldsulky.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=The_Jerald_Runabout_Standard_Mini

I am no expert but have hundreds of hours experience in a jog cart and I wouldn’t let that design style stop you. I can get in and out very quickly from the rear by a sit and spin. Balancing was never a problem.