[QUOTE=Velvet;8896684]
What was the general consensus?
I’m happy that at least the furor over it has died off out here a bit so we can more calmly discuss it.[/QUOTE]
Mixed, but mostly in agreeance against Rollkur. While many acknowledged the existence of Rollkur as a problem in many disciplines, others argued hogwash just an age old useful training tool. I wish I could find it for a link…
I agree with lady that everyone has used it at some point, if you’re referring to extreme stretching. Calling it rolkur brings up the all bad image. Sjef started the practice because he couldn’t afford a “nice” horse and had an out of control horse that this worked for.
It has created the idea that people work lower and rounder and more forward, which I think has helped a lot of horses. There has been a definite change in the sport from when there were stiffer, dropped back horses doing the moves. Of course that also has to do with the much nicer quality of horse we see now.
Interesting segue into western. I think this is where the lens needs to be turned. I, unfortunately am at a barn with a “western pleasure” trainer. It’s horrific. Lock the horses in a stall 23 1/2 hours a day, bring them out and lunge the crap out of them in a 20 meter circle, get on them with pig sticker spurs and a 12 inch curb and spend 10 minutes spurring the crap out of them as you jerk on their mouth in a 10 meter circle. Oh, and go really slowly in some broken gait you can’t call anything like a walk, trot, or lope. Make sure the horse has given up and never moves or shows any sign of resistance.
And there are those videos of the reining trainers doing the same, running their horses into walls, spurring and jerking their heads into the ground in absolute submission. This is normal for a lot of people.
I think encouraging the horse to stretch low and deep, lifting the belly and back, can be very beneficial for certain horses at certain times. It’s a very different thing than forcing the nose to the chest, holding it in and making the horse carry that position for extended periods of time.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8896781]
I agree with lady that everyone has used it at some point, if you’re referring to extreme stretching. Calling it rolkur brings up the all bad image. Sjef started the practice because he couldn’t afford a “nice” horse and had an out of control horse that this worked for.
It has created the idea that people work lower and rounder and more forward, which I think has helped a lot of horses. There has been a definite change in the sport from when there were stiffer, dropped back horses doing the moves. Of course that also has to do with the much nicer quality of horse we see now.
Interesting segue into western. I think this is where the lens needs to be turned. I, unfortunately am at a barn with a “western pleasure” trainer. It’s horrific. Lock the horses in a stall 23 1/2 hours a day, bring them out and lunge the crap out of them in a 20 meter circle, get on them with pig sticker spurs and a 12 inch curb and spend 10 minutes spurring the crap out of them as you jerk on their mouth in a 10 meter circle. Oh, and go really slowly in some broken gait you can’t call anything like a walk, trot, or lope. Make sure the horse has given up and never moves or shows any sign of resistance.
And there are those videos of the reining trainers doing the same, running their horses into walls, spurring and jerking their heads into the ground in absolute submission. This is normal for a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and anyone who tries something else doesn’t ever get to the world championships because the judging rewards it. Hmmmm…
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8896781]
I agree with lady that everyone has used it at some point, if you’re referring to extreme stretching. Calling it rolkur brings up the all bad image. Sjef started the practice because he couldn’t afford a “nice” horse and had an out of control horse that this worked for.
It has created the idea that people work lower and rounder and more forward, which I think has helped a lot of horses. There has been a definite change in the sport from when there were stiffer, dropped back horses doing the moves. Of course that also has to do with the much nicer quality of horse we see now.
Interesting segue into western. I think this is where the lens needs to be turned. I, unfortunately am at a barn with a “western pleasure” trainer. It’s horrific. Lock the horses in a stall 23 1/2 hours a day, bring them out and lunge the crap out of them in a 20 meter circle, get on them with pig sticker spurs and a 12 inch curb and spend 10 minutes spurring the crap out of them as you jerk on their mouth in a 10 meter circle. Oh, and go really slowly in some broken gait you can’t call anything like a walk, trot, or lope. Make sure the horse has given up and never moves or shows any sign of resistance.
And there are those videos of the reining trainers doing the same, running their horses into walls, spurring and jerking their heads into the ground in absolute submission. This is normal for a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget tying their head UP while locked in the stall so they are eager to drop their neck. I was horrified to see that at a show a few years ago. Along with the broken gaits, backs hunched like they are crippled - how can anyone think this is in any way beautiful?
I think most disciplines use some overbending - lateral and longitudinal - and some people instantly label that “hyperflexion”. I see it in dressage, reining, jumpers. I don’t have a problem with it, as long as it is not sustained or overly forceful. A quick bend and stretch, then get out. And I do think there is a huge difference between riding a horse a bit round and long and deep in the warm up, versus riding it with its chin pulled in to the chest. I do see some really GOOD trainers using that method, and it seems to get the horse focused and stretching over the back.
I never saw a huge use of “rollkur” going on, even at the CDIs. A few select riders use it - and I suspect some of them still do, But I never saw the “majority” of the riders using this as a training tool. I am not going to name names, but we are all aware of the handful of trainers that were pictured over and over and over. If you actually went to a CDI - you didn’t see many horses ridden this way.
I agree!
I was hesitant to post on this thread because of the topic - I think it has been regurgitated so many times, but WTH, here I am :lol:
[QUOTE=netg;8896119]
I absolutely think and see classical up/open riding working wonderfully for young horses and getting their hind ends more engaged - and it’s part of why Valegro is so spectacular. No, he’s not 100% classically trained (as Carl Hester openly admits to NOT trying to stick to classical methods) but far closer, and he is spectacular with excellent use of his hind end because of it. [/QUOTE]
Could you expand on this, please? I don’t know a lot about his training other than he likes to let his horses all go in turnout and play together and act like horses and that there’s some very lucky lady who gets to hack Valegro.
[QUOTE=BigMama1;8896817]
I think encouraging the horse to stretch low and deep, lifting the belly and back, can be very beneficial for certain horses at certain times. It’s a very different thing than forcing the nose to the chest, holding it in and making the horse carry that position for extended periods of time.[/QUOTE]
I think you got it 100% right with this post. And I think the crucial part is that the horse has to lift the back while he is stretching. And I think that the problem why many people who let their horse stretch low and deep will never get anywhere because their horses do not lift the back.
Riding is not about how to hold the head of the horse, its an overall picture… The whole body (and also the mind) has to work together. Sometimes you have to work on little things to improve the overall picture but you always have to keep the overall picture in mind.
And I still think Rollkur is a shortcut and cheating on the horse and its not necessary if you are patient and consistent.
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8897043]
Could you expand on this, please? I don’t know a lot about his training other than he likes to let his horses all go in turnout and play together and act like horses and that there’s some very lucky lady who gets to hack Valegro.[/QUOTE]
He publicly admits to not knowing a lot about classical theory (and wanting to learn more) and that he won’t label his riding classical. The “stretching” they do in which the horse is overbent in the neck to one side and then the other is clearly not classical, but really a large amount of what they do IS. He just will not use the label for himself, and while most of his work most likely is, thus the far improved use of hind ends on his horses compared to many others, he’s not completely.
[QUOTE=BigMama1;8896817]
I think encouraging the horse to stretch low and deep, lifting the belly and back, can be very beneficial for certain horses at certain times. It’s a very different thing than forcing the nose to the chest, holding it in and making the horse carry that position for extended periods of time.[/QUOTE]
AMEN!!
Dressage, to me, is riding in harmony with my horse. Rollkur is not harmonious. I hate it with a passion.
There is a FB page, https://www.facebook.com/Rollkur-Just-Say-NO-1597505527239968/ which I started after seeing rollkur in competition. I would like to see rollkur banned in New Zealand. It goes against everything that dressage should be.
“The goal of all dressage riding should be to bring the horse and rider together in harmony…a oneness of balance, purpose, and athletic expression” Walter Zettl
Rolkur is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer…it feels good when you stop.
I would think that’s more what the horse thinks.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33043/study-sellers-use-head-set-to-advertise-training-level
This caught my eye and thought this would be a good thread to share it on.
Interesting findings…
It fails to mention though what descriptive words were used the most in ads containing horses who’s heads were above vertical.
And I don’t know anything about the author.
Comments?
[QUOTE=Tanny98;8904812]
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33043/study-sellers-use-head-set-to-advertise-training-level
This caught my eye and thought this would be a good thread to share it on.
Interesting findings…
It fails to mention though what descriptive words were used the most in ads containing horses who’s heads were above vertical.
And I don’t know anything about the author.
Comments?[/QUOTE]
I always have more questions than answers when it comes to summaries of scholarly studies by The Horse. Often I find the questions are answered if I can find the original paper, but honestly that blurb sounds like all kinds of false assumptions which may or may not have been made - without seeing more info, I can’t really have an opinion on it.
Here’s what I don’t get: How on EARTH does Rollkur help control a horse? My first horse used to tuck nose to chest and take off bucking like a rodeo bronc, and my only hope was to hang on until she bucked herself out - it took a dressage trainer teaching me upward half halts (or more if necessary) to get her nose out of her chest to learn to handle it.
Yes good on both points.
And I have always wondered this myself, about how this applies to horses who naturally duck BTV as evasion and laziness. Some are quite talented at it and can hang out there all day long no problem for sure.
I will say this about the use of Rollkur as a way to get the horse to “submit”. It would take a fairly good-natured, forgiving, and not highly sensitive mount to tolerate this type of handling to begin with, I would think. I know of plenty, including my own, who would take this as an insult and don’t forget such things… the type of horse I would rather not pick such a fight. But that’s just a personal theory of mine on the matter.
I see Denny Emerson (Tamarack Hill) posts liked by my friends and noticed he did a rollkur discussion on FB. Kind of interesting to see what an old eventer had to say. 
[QUOTE=Tanny98;8904911]
Yes good on both points.
And I have always wondered this myself, about how this applies to horses who naturally duck BTV as evasion and laziness. Some are quite talented at it and can hang out there all day long no problem for sure.
I will say this about the use of Rollkur as a way to get the horse to “submit”. It would take a fairly good-natured, forgiving, and not highly sensitive mount to tolerate this type of handling to begin with, I would think. I know of plenty, including my own, who would take this as an insult and don’t forget such things… the type of horse I would rather not pick such a fight. But that’s just a personal theory of mine on the matter.[/QUOTE]
BTV has nothing to do with RK— all horses have moments (even several moments) of being behind the vertical. Does not mean that they are evading contact- physical location of nose doesn’t mean they are not correct in the contact. (My opinion)
As we know, RK is a specific technique to HOLD them there by force.
All horses go BTV as a nature of being imperfect with imperfect riders. Many who are not strong can’t hold the correct carriage. Some breeds are prone to this. That doesn’t bother me one bit.
Its how is the rider correcting this and how aware are they of this?
the mindset of RK doesn’t mesh with classical riding that gets the horse up and out.
JMHO.
So WHo is pushing rollkur now 
Will people ever be happy with the people and horses that win…guess not
It will never be good enough for some.:no:
Too boring when things are going well
apparently :lol:
[edit]
My previous point also implying that I’m guessing he reads posts out here, or has an alter.
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8907224]
BTV has nothing to do with RK— all horses have moments (even several moments) of being behind the vertical. Does not mean that they are evading contact- physical location of nose doesn’t mean they are not correct in the contact. (My opinion)
As we know, RK is a specific technique to HOLD them there by force.
All horses go BTV as a nature of being imperfect with imperfect riders. Many who are not strong can’t hold the correct carriage. Some breeds are prone to this. That doesn’t bother me one bit.
Its how is the rider correcting this and how aware are they of this?
the mindset of RK doesn’t mesh with classical riding that gets the horse up and out.
JMHO.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree Senden, but would add - horses go “BTV” naturally too - when we talk about “natural head carriage”, horses put their heads and necks all over the place for balance and just for the sheer joy of movement. I have a 100 acre ranch and use to breed horses - AND I do photography. I have many, many, many pictures of horses totally free, in huge pastures, no tack, no rider, no interference, and they are “BTV”.
I would also add - when you see a horse ridden “IFV” but braced and resistent (hollow neck, etc), that so many people say is “better” then “curled neck” - people need to watch horses at liberty. They seldom go to that hollow neck stance - it is a much less natural and comfortable position for a horse.
And totally agree with you - RK is about force - and training by force is seldom the “right” way!
[QUOTE=Crockpot;8907229]
So WHo is pushing rollkur now
Will people ever be happy with the people and horses that win…guess not
It will never be good enough for some.:no:
Too boring when things are going well
apparently :lol:
I could be wrong but I get the distinct impression some here are possibly invalids or housebound ( and nothing wrong with thaT ) but it causes them to stir up non existent controversies for their own amusement.[/QUOTE]
I’m still scratching my head at how ANY of this fits the conversation, there must be a better platform for outing infirmities. Maybe you should bring it up on OT so others can help you.
So sorry to hear you are housebound and infirm. 
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