Anyone interested in discussing rollkur and the effects we’ve seen over the past, oh, 15 years? Or the fact that it seems to be falling out of favor. (Or at least is not done as much in the warm up ring at the big shows.) Not looking for meltdowns or flame outs, even though we know that can happen on this topic. It’s like saying “Trump!” or “Hillary!” :lol: Can we just discuss the lasting impacts we see on our sport from the user of rollkur?
It’s been hashed so much…not interested…
You seem to like fanning the fires this week by starting these sorts of threads.
The tide is turning, I’m not interested in the same thread for the 500th time.
Lasting impact of the sport? what sport? CDIs? Lower levels? USA? Germany? its such a diverse sport that it is impossible to generalize and have an accurate answer.
What got me thinking about this was a few things I’ve noticed happening in the clinics I’ve watched (even online). I’m not seeing it as something people think is a one-size fits all approach anymore. Anky and Sjef never said it was, but everyone and their brother thought it was the winning secret. I honestly think that it has a very, very small place in our sport, and should be used only for the very brief moments. Some of the major practitioners seem to no longer be at the top or in the limelight. (No, not picking on Anky. I’m thinking of a few who lunged in that position.)
but everyone and their brother thought it was the winning secret.
no.
Velvet, the more and more I see your posts on this forum the more it confirms that you are just a troll poster.
[edit] given the pictures and videos widely posted of the 4 year olds in Sweden being warmed up before Charlotte Dujardin rode them, I’d say the practice was thriving 
Why the best trainers in the country think it’s appropriate to warm up the nicest young horses in the country this way is beyond me. I wish CD had spoken up about it at the time, but at least she proved how much better the horses all went by riding them in a rising trot, forward to a soft hand with the throatlatch open.
I think classical dressage makes a horse softer in the back, rounder, more cadenced with both more impulsion and suspension. So when a small number of modern dressage horses came out who moved that way already but the brain and always on engine were harder, it really makes sense that some would move away from classical teachings at least for a time.
Now, I think people are starting to see that yes a horse who is not braced as too many old school horses were is a good thing. But at the same time they are seeing that an active hind leg is also a good thing. And these spectacular modern horses are actually able to do both, and can aim more toward perfection. It turns out, a more classical (not Klassical) approach works well for these horses. I think as bad as rollkur can be, it has helped get more toward the middle of ideal instead of too far in one direction. And I really hate admitting that… But I don’t like an overly braced horse, either.
[QUOTE=BigMama1;8895991]
I don’t see why it’s trolling - given the pictures and videos widely posted of the 4 year olds in Sweden being warmed up before Charlotte Dujardin rode them, I’d say the practice was thriving
Why the best trainers in the country think it’s appropriate to warm up the nicest young horses in the country this way is beyond me. I wish CD had spoken up about it at the time, but at least she proved how much better the horses all went by riding them in a rising trot, forward to a soft hand with the throatlatch open.[/QUOTE]
,
What?
be careful what you are claiming here…
Most of us have done this to death for 10 yrs and are not going to feed the troll. Search Velvet’s history on here and the Obs L and you will see why this comment was made. Its not a theory discussion, it is meant to entice hype and drama
Thanks, BigMama1.
netg, you bring up some interesting points. Is rollkur the only way to warm up some of the modern horses due to their brains? You have to wonder about that. I mean, if they’re hot, people have ridden many hot horses over the years in a more classical frame/way. Do they have other issues? Vision? Is it because they are naturally so elastic that it becomes a better response to their antics?
And yet, with other great riders, rollkur is never used on the same horses. Is it certain riders who simply find it also fits their abilities and style?
[QUOTE=Velvet;8896073]
Thanks, BigMama1.
netg, you bring up some interesting points. Is rollkur the only way to warm up some of the modern horses due to their brains? You have to wonder about that. I mean, if they’re hot, people have ridden many hot horses over the years in a more classical frame/way. Do they have other issues? Vision? Is it because they are naturally so elastic that it becomes a better response to their antics?
And yet, with other great riders, rollkur is never used on the same horses. Is it certain riders who simply find it also fits their abilities and style?[/QUOTE]
I think because the horses have these soft, mobile backs, suspension, cadence, and as the first modern horses were coming out that was the priority rather than brains, there were riders who just worried about control. I don’t think it’s the right way to ride, and see super nice horses being ridden more classically around me and flourishing. I think it was a temporary mistake made by some because of the lack of need to develop that cadence. It’s also part of why lower level judging can be controversial - guidelines were set up for “normal” horses who had to be worked into having that cadence and suspension, and now horses are born that way.
I absolutely think and see classical up/open riding working wonderfully for young horses and getting their hind ends more engaged - and it’s part of why Valegro is so spectacular. No, he’s not 100% classically trained (as Carl Hester openly admits to NOT trying to stick to classical methods) but far closer, and he is spectacular with excellent use of his hind end because of it. Our expectations of horse ability have grown, and now we’re starting to expect more they be ridden well, too.
netg, those are definitely interesting and good points. I’m also enjoying the discussion and no fires out here. 
It makes me wish we could take a couple of breeds, take two fairly similar horses (body, natural ability, and temperament) and put them with one more classical (like SRS) style trainer and another more “modern” style trainer and see what brings out what in each horse. That would be a VERY interesting study.
We removed a couple of post and responses to them. Please avoid the insults when addressing other users.
If you’re not interested in a topic, or question a poster’s motivation for posting, that’s fine, but you can hold those opinions without getting into the name calling, etc.
Thanks,
Mod 1
There was an article posted somewhere that popped up last week in my FB news feed about addressing Rollkur in reining and western sports. Boy was that a comment section…
It’s interesting as I feel dressage has brought such a practice to light and put a name on it and now horse people as a whole are becoming more familiar with its use in other horse sports as well. We didn’t have a name for it back in the day but I remember seeing trainers doing it regularly when I was showing in pleasure classes at breed shows as a kid.
Edit: not advocating just observing. I have yet to see any trainer or clinician use it since I have been in dressage, so I can’t speak of any recent personal experience, but I too am interested in what others have to say.
I know they do something similar, yet slight different, with QHs in reining, based on what my reining friends have told me. Many think the way they do it is helpful (not debating if anyone thinks it is right or not). My question was to ask why it helped, and they said it was all about creating more flexibility and a few included submission to the rider. So, if the horses we are creating are more flexible already, is it then all about submission, as nhwr suggests. If so, I go back to the thought that it might only be used by certain people who cannot obtain submission in another way, or find it a quicker way to get to the results they’re looking for from the horse.
Ok my opinion… No discussion really needed. Yes I am sure that there are lots of people using Rollkur still, but it is proven that its not needed to get to the top. Unfortunately not every trainer and rider has the ability, patience and time to bring up a young horse correctly so if they choose to go over to the dark side bad for them There are enough examples for riders doing it the right way. I posted a video a couple of days ago about Ingrid Klimke and she is riding 3 horses in the video. I believe (might be wrong though) that the second horse she is riding is Franziskus a very talented stallion… Before he came to I.K. he was known to be rather difficult and if you look at the video you can see a nice happy horse. And I.K. is one of the top dressage riders in Germany as well as one of the top eventers. And because I like the video so much here it is again…
https://www.facebook.com/pferdia/videos/1178942228820269/
So rollkur is not needed.
since HTML code isn’t accepted by this format: FACEPALM
Everyone uses hyperflexion.
Everyone.
Let me be more pointed, every successful professional rider used hyperflexion at some point for some purpose. At least in dressage and show jumping and eventing. And yep velvet, I’ve seen reining too. Their warm up looks identical to the show jumpers and dressage riders I have seen at the fei level
This is not prolonged use or held for extended periods of time. The people who do that are morons and there were never that many of them. Which is to say Andreas helgstrand definitely thought if a little was good a lot must be better. But it is a valuable techinique for building flexibility and ability to hold tension.
This is the same as any other inflammatory post on the subject ie still shots with no context.
Eta also cutting horses.
ladyj, not everyone in the sports you mentioned uses it. I know that especially in the “old days” it wasn’t really thought about as something you WOULD add to your tool box for training. The only exception I can see is when people were trying to stop a horse from rearing. You would crank their head around and making them go in a circle. Other than that, which was a correction for a potentially dangerous behavior on the part of the horse, it just wasn’t a thing. To say it is in all disciplines is probably true, but should it be? Is it a correction to make things safer? Is it a short cut? Is it necessary with the current horses we’re breeding? (The last one is very doubtful to me. Horses are still horses, unless we’re making them brain damaged with all the line breeding that can more easily cause genetic problems and freaks.) If its a short cut to submission, then it should show in the horse’s behavior and attitude.
[QUOTE=Tanny98;8896260]
There was an article posted somewhere that popped up last week in my FB news feed about addressing Rollkur in reining and western sports. Boy was that a comment section…
It’s interesting as I feel dressage has brought such a practice to light and put a name on it and now horse people as a whole are becoming more familiar with its use in other horse sports as well. We didn’t have a name for it back in the day but I remember seeing trainers doing it regularly when I was showing in pleasure classes at breed shows as a kid.
Edit: not advocating just observing. I have yet to see any trainer or clinician use it since I have been in dressage, so I can’t speak of any recent personal experience, but I too am interested in what others have to say.[/QUOTE]
What was the general consensus?
I’m happy that at least the furor over it has died off out here a bit so we can more calmly discuss it.
