RF Amber Eyes -- Now known as "Commentary"

[Jeito]

[QUOTE=asterix;7032311]
Your whole post made me laugh out loud, but, oh dear, let’s just say, we were very, very worried . . .[/QUOTE]

Aw, come on, back when I lived in Charlottesville, there was a “mature” lady who rode with the Farmington Hunt Club. Every time she fell, everyone would hold their breath, but she always got up. They had a black tie gala at the country club for her 90th birthday ( I wish I could remember her name, but I was just a student, and not even invited to the gala )

[lferguson]

[QUOTE=Discobold;7032317]
Aw, come on, back when I lived in Charlottesville, there was a “mature” lady who rode with the Farmington Hunt Club. Every time she fell, everyone would hold their breath, but she always got up. They had a black tie gala at the country club for her 90th birthday ( I wish I could remember her name, but I was just a student, and not even invited to the gala )[/QUOTE]

I don’t even know you or anyone involved in your anecdote, but I feel a little disappointed that you weren’t invited to the gala. Hmph.

[vineyridge]

She’s famous. Her name escapes me at the moment, but it is three parts, the first one of which may begin with an E. It’ll come to me tonight at 2 am. She’s been riding since about 1935.

I just looked her up and she was riding in 2011. Her name is Ellie Wood Baxter. She even has a facebook page.

[QUOTE=Discobold;7032317]
Aw, come on, back when I lived in Charlottesville, there was a “mature” lady who rode with the Farmington Hunt Club. Every time she fell, everyone would hold their breath, but she always got up. They had a black tie gala at the country club for her 90th birthday ( I wish I could remember her name, but I was just a student, and not even invited to the gala )[/QUOTE]

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

Early Applause is a gelding not a mare. He burst onto the scene with Kelley Farmer and Larry Glefke and won just about everything. He was sold to Pony Lane Farm and never went as well for Maggie Jayne as he did for Kelley. Frankly, if I was looking for a horse to provide a great example of a hunter I would not select this horse and rider. If you want a more forward ride get a video of Taken (my personal favorite) and if you want to demo the slow ride with the extravagant jump find one of Scott Stewart and Dedication.

[JenEM]

@asterix;7032311

Your whole post made me laugh out loud, but, oh dear, let’s just say, we were very, very worried (we being the SJ staff at our last horse trial). As we were picking her up off the ground and handing her to the EMT, she said “I didn’t see that coming.” Unfortunately, we had, from the second she came in the ring.
To be fair, I doubt she was north of 70.
I saw a rider the following weekend at our unrecognized who I KNOW is over 70, riding beautifully on a horse she made up herself, now competing at a lower level than they used to ride at.

I’m just hoping by the time we all roll around to that age someone will be brave enough to tell us if we are making people afraid…

I was afraid you were talking about someone in my division at the unrec, but then I looked up the horse and realized it wasn’t a former 4* horse. I don’t think bad riding has an age limit, or a discipline limit. I’m a hunter transplant, who, though the help of good trainers and an opinionated chestnut mare, is figuring out the eventing thing, and how to ride properly. I know I do the puppet thing with my hands, which pisses off the aforementioned chestnut mare, so I spent most of my last lesson riding on a circle to a jump with my hands on the breastplate. The progress is slow, though, so I’m hoping that by the time I’m 70, I might not suck anymore

I do think this whole situation reflects badly on people who do things properly, and follow the rules. I can maybe understand being confused about the eventing rules and heights if you don’t know anything about the discipline, but the horse had an easily accessible FEI record linked to her registration, and it would have taken another 2 seconds of googling to figure out what fence heights that equated to. It’s really a shame, too, because the horse’s handy round from the Devon derby was just lovely, and what I’d like to see more of in hunters.

[vineyridge]

So was he a warmblood, breeding unknown, that was imported from over the pond before he started showing? Although that would have nothing to do with different riders.

Does anyone know if US government records, including Quarantine, have horse names? How about Shippers records? Change the name and lose the records.

[JER]

[QUOTE=NinaL aka Chrissy;7032367]
Early Applause is a gelding not a mare. [/QUOTE]

Oops.

The animal was most definitely making mare faces, with the ears pinned back and the crabby expression. Is this a consequence of too much Depo?

(That is a joke. I’ve heard h/j people give Depo to geldings. Chemical castration for the already castrated?)

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7032404]
So was he a warmblood, breeding unknown, that was imported from over the pond before he started showing? Although that would have nothing to do with different riders.

Does anyone know if US government records, including Quarantine, have horse names? How about Shippers records? Change the name and lose the records.[/QUOTE]

No idea, vineyridge. Probably imported and no other information available. It drives me crazy. I bred horses for the hunter ring (back in the TB times) and all of them were recorded with their Jockey Club names and breeding. I bought a born in the USA warmblood from Carol Lush. No papers but I knew his breeding, foal date and all the information, including the breeder was provided when I recorded him with the USEF. I imported a ISH from Ireland - all of his information accompanies his USEF number. He came with his passport - it was handed to me when I picked him up at the quarantine site. All of his identifying information was on his shipping manifest and his identity was absolutely confirmed down to the tag on his halter. I do not know if it is people being deceptive or truly not giving a rat’s behind, probably a mixture of both. I know for certain that there are four horses in my barn (one from Jay Matter, three from Emil Spadone) who came with their registered names and passports. Indeed, the horses from Emil Spadone can be found on the All Breed Pedigree site so someone took the time to enter the information before the people in the barn purchased them. I think that if buyers were more insistent upon the passport and registration information the sellers/horse dealers would be more apt to retain the information. Alas, in the hunter world, many of the clients could also give the proverbial rat’s behind so they just go along with the trainer.

[RugBug]

I am trying to tell myself this is a style thing, but that second video referenced above (the Maggie Jayne Handy round) is really hard to watch. I have no idea what all the wiggling and awkward outside rein motion is doing, the mare DOES land in a heap (taking her rider with her), and is heavy and disengaged. To me, “handy” would denote being in somewhat more self carriage and engaged behind, so that one can make the turns without doing a marionette show with the reins, and not take two strides to pick yourself up off the mane on landing.

@JER;7031821

I’m not sure what there is to like in the second video. The mare is rather sour at the start, she lands in a heap over the jumps, the contact is all over the place and the not-so-invisible steering…

FWIW-there was plenty of hullabaloo about this round in hunterland. Many found it lacking…even if the plcings did not reflect that.

The contact is light. Light contact is not the same thing as dropped contact, like that girl in the hunter video. If you don’t drop the contact, you don’t have to re-establish it. (You can read that same line in Steinkraus’s book, which is all about correct riding.)

My mare is carrying herself. The mare is 14.2hh, she has a naturally high head/shoulder carriage (which is something I actually breed for), the jumps are 3’7", and it is her first time competing at that level. Her neck is not upside down, it’s her neck, as you can see here. She’s half Akhal-Teke. Go to Google Images, type in ‘Akhal-Teke,’ and see the same neck everywhere.

Zizi is not a hunter type. She’s not really standard sport-horse type but that’s what you get when you breed to a rare, typey breed.

While your mare looks very nice, I wouldn’t say she’s in "“Self carriage.” IMO, self carriage wwould mean the that reins could be dropped and the horse would not change anything. It looks like your mare would add some speed if her riding weren’t holding her.

While you might define the rider’s contact in your video as “light” that is not how the hunter’s would define it. Neither is right or wrong, they are just different. Hunters are looking for what Vladimir Littuaer called “a stabilized horse.” One that does not need a constant feel to do its job. The stabilized horse goes on a very light contact at whatever pace and direction the rider tells it to go, until told otherwise. THIS is what we want in the hunters. A horse that speeds up if the reins are released is not in self carrriage, nor is it stabilized.

(And I could be wrong about your mare. Maybe she wouldn’t speed up if the reins were droppped, but she gives that impression).

[DMK]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7032694]
While you might define the rider’s contact in your video as “light” that is not how the hunter’s would define it. Neither is right or wrong, they are just different. Hunters are looking for what Vladimir Littuaer called “a stabilized horse.” One that does not need a constant feel to do its job. The stabilized horse goes on a very light contact at whatever pace and direction the rider tells it to go, until told otherwise. THIS is what we want in the hunters. A horse that speeds up if the reins are released is not in self carrriage, nor is it stabilized.

(And I could be wrong about your mare. Maybe she wouldn’t speed up if the reins were dropped, but she gives that impression).[/QUOTE]

Agreed 100% - also imagine doing that same round and add quite a few feet to the line (a 5 line would be approximately 4 - 6.5 feet longer than in a jumper class of similar height), take a few pounds of pressure off the reins, make sure any movements to adjust for the dreaded 4 to a 4 (move up/slow down) are done through your seat bones, and most experienced horse people are sharp enough top appreciate how difficult it is to not only create that ride, but be lucky enough to find the right horse to do it. I think most people that haven’t ridden hunters in an big show just don’t realize how long those lines are and how difficult it is to create the forward step without losing the relaxed mind. I remember just crying inside when I saw a 101’ seven step in an indoor (96’ on a 12 step for those keeping record). And then it rode like butter and I felt like a goddess. It’s a pretty awesome feeling.

But most decent horse people are sharp enough to recognize that there is something to be learned from every discipline. Of course those same people also recognize that there are some very shallow, unlovely types in every discipline as well.

[see_u_at_x]

[QUOTE=JER;7032263]
Finally, someone on this board mentions marionettes. The lack of puppets was starting to get me down.

The turn that goes from :59 - 1:07 is like a mini Muppet Show. Maybe it’s not easy being green, although I suspect these horses have some experience in the ring. This mare appears to have enough experience to make her put her ears back at the start.

I also have no idea what ‘handy’ means. I actually thought from reading your post that the rider’s name was Maggie Jayne Handy, but then I remembered that hunters aren’t supposed to have stripper names.[/QUOTE]

I remember seeing Maggie and her sister ride at the International a couple of years ago. While I’m certainly no expert, they both were CONSTANTLY messing around with their horses’ mouths. It was really distracting and annoying to watch. IIRC, it was more noticable with Maggie, and my friend even commented to me, “That horse would go so much better if she’s stop f$%#ing with its mouth.” From the couple of articles I’ve read about her, she comes across like a very nice girl…I just don’t understand what the point of all that fiddling around is.

[KellyS]

I totally understand what JER is saying, and get the sense of humor.

To me, there are very few horses that can actually accomplish the truly perfect hunter round, and a whole bunch of horses that require quite the repertoire of “prep” and riding techniques to try to achieve that look. Reminds me of the western pleasure horses.

i much prefer disciplines that don’t force horses to go unnaturally. I want a horse that is forward, engaged, and in the contact. To me, there is nothing reassuring about basically loping down to a big fence on little to no contact, in a forward position on a horse that looks and/or feels half asleep.

After fox hunting for the first time this winter, show hunters are the antithesis of real hunters. I’ll never be able to comprehend how show hunters became the epitome of hunters. And many unethical practices have arisen from trying to take away a horse’s natural way of going to fit this distorted, “perfect” show hunter image.

JMHO

[Robby_Johnson]

[QUOTE=JER;7032478]
Oops.

The animal was most definitely making mare faces, with the ears pinned back and the crabby expression. Is this a consequence of too much Depo?

(That is a joke. I’ve heard h/j people give Depo to geldings. Chemical castration for the already castrated?)[/QUOTE]

I thought it was a mare too, for the same reason.

I also thought the rider looked like chicken-fried vom. Like maybe she was anticipating doing stunts over the fences.

[JER]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7032694]
Hunters are looking for what Vladimir Littuaer called “a stabilized horse.” One that does not need a constant feel to do its job. [/QUOTE]

Yet one that is very often drugged to achieve this result. I doubt that’s what Littauer had in mind.

This is puzzling to me. I read these comments about ‘happy’ and ‘natural’ and ‘light contact’, but that’s not what I see in the videos. Maggie Jayne’s handsy round is none of the above. John French is conducting a string quartet with his outside hand and repeatedly dropping contact. I watched a vid of Scott Stewart on Destination(?) and I saw a horse that lost what little impulsion it had as it approached most jumps. (I tried to watch Taken, but literally couldn’t see the horse for the trees.). A stabilized horse should not require, as asterix so astutely put it, a marionette show. A stabilized horse should be one that is connected from the inside leg to the outside rein, and all adjustments can be made from there.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=JER;7033165]
Yet one that is very often drugged to achieve this result. I doubt that’s what Littauer had in mind.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

Drugging is an issue. It doesn’t change that your horse does not look to be going on a huntery light contact or that it is stabilized. But you know, red herrings are awesome.

Stabilized does not mean slow…it means the horse does not need a lot of active management.

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

[QUOTE=KellyS;7032978]
I totally understand what JER is saying, and get the sense of humor.

To me, there are very few horses that can actually accomplish the truly perfect hunter round, and a whole bunch of horses that require quite the repertoire of “prep” and riding techniques to try to achieve that look. Reminds me of the western pleasure horses.

i much prefer disciplines that don’t force horses to go unnaturally. I want a horse that is forward, engaged, and in the contact. To me, there is nothing reassuring about basically loping down to a big fence on little to no contact, in a forward position on a horse that looks and/or feels half asleep.

After fox hunting for the first time this winter, show hunters are the antithesis of real hunters. I’ll never be able to comprehend how show hunters became the epitome of hunters. And many unethical practices have arisen from trying to take away a horse’s natural way of going to fit this distorted, “perfect” show hunter image.

JMHO[/QUOTE]

Oh, piffle. I am in a barn that goes to a lot of AA shows and the riders compete successfully. The “prep” most of the hunters get is probably less than your average eventer. Granted they are not as fit as an eventing horse but does this sound like a hard prep? Hack on showgrounds day before class. Maybe do one or two 3’3" performance hunters with pro. Day of show - 15 minute to 60 minute hack in the ring depending upon time schedule and energy level of horse. Medications - Bute the night before (just in case) and maybe Robaxin all within the legal limits.

Some of the riding techniques you see are mannerisms. I do not love seeing them but I do not think they alter the performance as much as you believe.

It is like everything else. You hear about the bad guys because it is just so much more fun to talk about them rather than everyone who does it by the books. That’s why hunter folks like to point out all of the “abuse” that event horses go through.

As far as go unnaturally? How about dressage - is that natural? What is natural about your chosen discipline - hitching a horse up to a cart? Jumping a horse through some of the eventing complexes? Jumping a wooden squirrel or fish? Nothing we do with horses allow them to go naturally. Naturally to a horse is head down eating grass.

And, BTW, show hunters ceased to be field hunters at least 30 years ago. I should know, I go back that far.

Nina

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7033180]
:rolleyes:

Drugging is an issue. It doesn’t change that your horse does not look to be going on a huntery light contact or that it is stabilized. But you know, red herrings are awesome.

Stabilized does not mean slow…it means the horse does not need a lot of active management.[/QUOTE]

Rugbug, most people these days have no clue about a stabilized horse :). Back when I was breeding and breaking babies all my horses were stabilized. I think some people on this thread need to pick up Littauer and give it a read or re-read before they throw any more darts.

Nina (agreeing with you)

[vineyridge]

Stabilizing horses should always be a crucial step in training any horse. Littauer was a master trainer, writer, and innovator. His work is just as important for eventers as hunters and jumpers. But Littauer would probably be appalled at modern American show hunters and the style.

IIRC from some of the German FN publications, it’s also a step in their training.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7033246]
Stabilizing horses should always be a crucial step in training any horse. Littauer was a master trainer, writer, and innovator. His work is just as important for eventers as hunters and jumpers. But Littauer would probably be appalled at modern American show hunters and the style.

IIRC from some of the German FN publications, it’s also a step in their training.[/QUOTE]

I think he would also be appalled at the current training of eventers and dressage horses.

[subk]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7032694]
While your mare looks very nice, I wouldn’t say she’s in "“Self carriage.” IMO, self carriage would mean the that reins could be dropped and the horse would not change anything. It looks like your mare would add some speed if her riding weren’t holding her.

…Hunters are looking for what Vladimir Littuaer called “a stabilized horse.” …A horse that speeds up if the reins are released is not in self carriage, nor is it stabilized. [/QUOTE]
I think you have totally missed the understanding of what “self-carriage” is. It doesn’t have much of anything to do with “speed.” Instead it is a function of balance. A horse in self-carriage changes speed, pace, gaits while in self-carriage all the time. The change of speed that you speak of might be a secondary effect to the primary one of a loss of balance when the weight in the hands is removed.

To have “carriage” a horse has to be balanced and a balanced horse is one that has transferred and his carrying 50%+ of his weight on his hind end as opposed to how a horse goes at liberty with 50%+ of his weight on his front end. So if you aren’t balanced in “carriage” in the first place you can’t have “self-carriage.” If you are running around with the hind end trailing with the weight on the forehand I don’t care what you do with the reins and what kind of response you get or don’t get nothing you do with your hands will indicate “self carriage.”

The idea to check for self-carriage isn’t “to drop the reins” and have the horse stay in the same place–that would indicated a horse stuck in a frame and probably an incorrect one at that. The idea is to soften your hand for a stride maybe two. A horse is self carriage should actually stay in balance, but then reach forward to seek the dropped contact. So yes, there should be change, but not in balance. The speed issue comes in because a horse using the rider to balance on will increase pace as a means of not falling on his nose when the support is taken away. (This is actually different than a horse that wants to visit the next county. )

I agree with Littuaer, and very much train my eventers for that type of ride. But I’m pretty sure if you go re-read him he would say that the FIRST characteristic of a “stabilized horse” is one that is in balance.

.