JER, those are cool videos. It took me a minute to figure out who the “old geezer” was
While I was half-joking when I said the jumping video showed a horse destined to be a hunter, I actually like the horse in that video. It’s hard to compare the two videos because one is a sales video and the other is a show video. What I noticed about the sales video is that there is a lot of fading in and out. I didn’t see a single upward transition. Someone mentioned that the horse missed the lead swaps in the jumping video, but did you notice that the hunter video fades out in several places where you would except to see a lead change? Also, the two lead changes at around 4:20 and 4:47 are pretty sloppy. There is no question this is a stunning horse - and, hey, they sold her, undoubtedly for big bucks - but I’m a little surprised that so many, especially on the eventing forum, think the hunter video shows a much nicer horse.
[QUOTE=Discobold;7031232]
It took me a minute to figure out who the “old geezer” was [/QUOTE]
Discobold, I know you didn’t mean to, but you came very close to turning my life upside down.
If you go back and read for content – actual content, as opposed to inflammatory, imaginary language – you will see that I referred to Mike Plumb as a ‘geezer’. Not an ‘old geezer.’
Fortunately, the man in question doesn’t have internet. I will live to see another day.
Also, I should add that JMP was eliminated at his most recent Prelim schooling HT because he went around the SJ course clear and inside the time, but then jumped an Intermediate fence which had been removed from the course for P. If we’re talking about serious USEF rule changes, I think eventing should allow all riders over 70 years of age to jump any Intermediate obstacle at any time without penalty.
[QUOTE=JER;7031489]
Discobold, I know you didn’t mean to, but you came very close to turning my life upside down.
If you go back and read for content – actual content, as opposed to inflammatory, imaginary language – you will see that I referred to Mike Plumb as a ‘geezer’. Not an ‘old geezer.’
Fortunately, the man in question doesn’t have internet. I will live to see another day.
Also, I should add that JMP was eliminated at his most recent Prelim schooling HT because he went around the SJ course clear and inside the time, but then jumped an Intermediate fence which had been removed from the course for P. If we’re talking about serious USEF rule changes, I think eventing should allow all riders over 70 years of age to jump any Intermediate obstacle at any time without penalty.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but in many states, aren’t “drivers” required a new eye sight/driving test over 70!!!
There is nothing incorrect about hunters. And there is nothing incorrect about Eventers.
There are however, wonky riders in every discipline and the discipline as a whole should not be flamed because of the loose ends.
And there is certainly nothing incorrect concerning Commentary’s trips at Devon.
now THOSE horses were ridden with light contact. JER, if your horse were ridden with light contact and holding herself then her neck would have been longer (like in the lunging video) rather than upside down (like in the riding video). Your horse also inverted, accelerated, dipped onto her forehand and took a rail at one point.
Not saying one is right or one is wrong or one is better or one is worse. But I do think you made a gross blanket accusation.
Yes, the trial ride for the mare was under paced. But it was a TRIAL RIDE. The mare was used to being ridden with a heavier hand and leg and it could be that the rider was just testing her out. Seeing if she would hold herself up without the rider every step of the way.
Because that’s what you do in a TEST RIDE. You TEST all the buttons to see what innate and what needs to be trained if a discipline change in the making.
Lord knows, when I test ride horses for amateur riders I bounce all about, hang off the horses and do the dumbest things. But that’s not how I go into competition.
Did you see her courses at Devon? They were beautiful and forward.
Time to put the “dissing of the hunters” to a rest.
It’s not their fault that horses sell for more in their discipline. Sure Amber would have been a lovely eventer long term, but she is also a lovely derby horse. A horse is worth what someone will pay…and that day she was worth a lot to someone who wanted a great derby horse.
Purp - agree 100%. The grossest see sawing I see is in eventing dressage where too many horses are being shoved into frames and end up short in front, long in back. Oh well, we all see what we want to see I guess!
[QUOTE=flutie1;7031726]
Purp - agree 100%. The grossest see sawing I see is in eventing dressage where too many horses are being shoved into frames and end up short in front, long in back. Oh well, we all see what we want to see I guess![/QUOTE]
:yes:
[QUOTE=flutie1;7031726]
Purp - agree 100%. The grossest see sawing I see is in eventing dressage where too many horses are being shoved into frames and end up short in front, long in back. Oh well, we all see what we want to see I guess![/QUOTE]
A topic my trainer and I were discussing the other day. It seems some event riders are skipping steps in training.
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7031714]
There is nothing incorrect about hunters. And there is nothing incorrect about Eventers.
There are however, wonky riders in every discipline and the discipline as a whole should not be flamed because of the loose ends. [/QUOTE]
now THOSE horses were ridden with light contact. [/QUOTE]
John French is a very good rider. Years ago, I bought a horse out of his barn – a former top hunter who was ready for a new life. The horse had one of the great brains ever doled out to an equine. I learned a lot from him. However, I do not like the horse in that video. He’s very heavy on his feet and overweight. Also, I’d rather see a horse being ridden into the outside rein than see the outside rein being fiddled with to make the turn – but clearly, this is what it takes at that moment to maintain the desired hunter picture.
I’m not sure what there is to like in the second video. The mare is rather sour at the start, she lands in a heap over the jumps, the contact is all over the place and the not-so-invisible steering maneuvers are not exactly textbook.
I’m not making the claim that eventers are better riders than hunters. Last weekend, we went to a Jimmy Wofford clinic in Aiken and the standard of riding was shockingly poor. The majority of the riders used the horse’s mouth for balance.
The contact is light. Light contact is not the same thing as dropped contact, like that girl in the hunter video. If you don’t drop the contact, you don’t have to re-establish it. (You can read that same line in Steinkraus’s book, which is all about correct riding.)
My mare is carrying herself. The mare is 14.2hh, she has a naturally high head/shoulder carriage (which is something I actually breed for), the jumps are 3’7", and it is her first time competing at that level. Her neck is not upside down, it’s her neck, as you can see here. She’s half Akhal-Teke. Go to Google Images, type in ‘Akhal-Teke,’ and see the same neck everywhere.
Zizi is not a hunter type. She’s not really standard sport-horse type but that’s what you get when you breed to a rare, typey breed.
Last week, we almost went to an h/j show instead of the Wofford clinic because we want to show Zizi’s full TB half-sister in the hunters this year. As you can see, one sister is the hunter type and one is really not. I have no issue with that – the look and type is part of the hunters. Most of my horses are not the hunter type, but now that I have one that is, we look forward to trying out some hunter classes.
As for the rail, horses make mistakes. This is the kind of mistake she should learn from, as opposed to a rider mistake, like jumping up the neck, which can make a horse lose confidence and back off the jumps.
Really? Where did I say that?
If you’re referring to my description of the hunter test ride, I thought it was obvious that there was some humor thrown in. But I don’t think I made any gross accusations, especially if you read my follow-up posts.
[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7031714]Yes, the trial ride for the mare was under paced. But it was a TRIAL RIDE. The mare was used to being ridden with a heavier hand and leg and it could be that the rider was just testing her out. Seeing if she would hold herself up without the rider every step of the way.
Because that’s what you do in a TEST RIDE. You TEST all the buttons to see what innate and what needs to be trained if a discipline change in the making. [/QUOTE]
Actually, it was a sales video. Can I at least make the gross blanket assumption that it’s what hunter trainer/riders want to see in a horse?
Where did you get the idea that I had any issue with the horse being sold as a hunter? I don’t feel that way at all. If the horse is appropriate for a discipline and there’s a buyer in that discipline, then why not?
The Wofford clinic last weekend was a festival of front-to-back riding. However, I don’t recall seeing any see-sawing, just using the reins exclusively for balance. When the horses were allowed to go forward (JW is quite blunt about taking rein action away), they all went so much better. I hope these riders took that lesson home.
JER, having recently seen a “mature” rider very nearly kill herself right in front of my eyes because no one apparently told her that the level she was riding was not appropriate for her current skill (despite being mounted on a very well behaved ex-4* horse), can we amend your proposed rule to apply ONLY to those riders over 70 who have actually competed at Intermediate at some point in their lives?
I am trying to tell myself this is a style thing, but that second video referenced above (the Maggie Jayne Handy round) is really hard to watch. I have no idea what all the wiggling and awkward outside rein motion is doing, the mare DOES land in a heap (taking her rider with her), and is heavy and disengaged. To me, “handy” would denote being in somewhat more self carriage and engaged behind, so that one can make the turns without doing a marionette show with the reins, and not take two strides to pick yourself up off the mane on landing.
Happily for the hunters, I have no interest in that discipline and my new baby horse wouldn’t make a hunter if you drugged him to his eyeballs and tied his front legs to the ground.
(Go ahead, my hunter friends, fire away. That way of riding is incorrect and indefensible.)[/QUOTE]
and here:
[QUOTE=JER;7031054]Oh dear.
Bad riding can be found in any discipline. Correct riding can also be found in any discipline. It is possible to ride a horse in a correct, connected, on-the-aids way in the hunters. It does happen. But this is not what was happening in the video I referenced.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know. It’s odd.
Everyone knows you’re not uneducated, quite the contrary.
But your original statement was tacky. Right down to the fancy car in the background. Kind of like high school girls going at it.
Almost like you had an sour emotional connection to the circumstances surrounding the sale and new rider of the horse.
The post was very “mocking-ish” of hunters in general.
that’s all.
I still like the hunter way of going and think they do a great job. And I think (in general) their horses look a lot happier on course than the majority of eventers I see being kicked around.
I don’t know. It’s odd.
Everyone knows you’re not uneducated, quite the contrary.
But your original statement was tacky. Right down to the fancy car in the background. Kind of like high school girls going at it.
Almost like you had an sour emotional connection to the circumstances surrounding the sale and new rider of the horse.
The post was very “mocking-ish” of hunters in general.
that’s all.
I still like the hunter way of going and think they do a great job. And I think (in general) their horses look a lot happier on course than the majority of eventers I see being kicked around.[/QUOTE]
and yes, I do wish we had a sarcastic emotion. : )
I don’t know that hunters look happy-a lot of them mostly they look asleep. Given that horses that show any expression can’t win in the hunters, then it’s not surprising that successful hunters don’t show displeasure. They also don’t show excitement or enjoyment either.
And I agree with JER-one your your videos of a happy hunter looks sour.
[QUOTE=JER;7031489]
Discobold, I know you didn’t mean to, but you came very close to turning my life upside down.[/QUOTE]
JER - Are you joking ? I thought you were being “tongue in cheek,” and so was I. Your phrase and mine are synonymous in my part of the world. Why would I “imagine” that you would use “inflammatory language” about someone you obviously respect (and so do I)?
Finally, someone on this board mentions marionettes. The lack of puppets was starting to get me down.
The turn that goes from :59 - 1:07 is like a mini Muppet Show. Maybe it’s not easy being green, although I suspect these horses have some experience in the ring. This mare appears to have enough experience to make her put her ears back at the start.
I also have no idea what ‘handy’ means. I actually thought from reading your post that the rider’s name was Maggie Jayne Handy, but then I remembered that hunters aren’t supposed to have stripper names.
Oh. Well, I think we’re talking about two different things.
I’m describing the video sales rider’s way of riding as incorrect. To me, it is incorrect. To me, it is incorrect to ride a horse behind the bit, behind the leg, not on the aids, underpowered, all those things I said. It is incorrect regardless of discipline.
It is possible to ride a hunter round using correct, classic principles of riding. I have no idea how often you’ll see this v. the mannered, behind-the-bit/leg version, but this is also true in other disciplines, although the incorrect variations differ somewhat.
If you felt my post had a mocking tone, it was supposed to be read with some humor. That might be my failing; I accept that. Writing is a lot like riding in that respect – twenty-five years as a professional and I’m still working on it. The stuff about the cars was supposed to be silly. My videos would have my 1997 Dodge diesel truck in the background, and you might see a crew of people pushing it to the second location.
I admit I’m not a fan of the modern hunter thing. I really don’t get the mannered riding, although I do understand the goal of riding those eight fences smoothly and in good form. It’s just not what I see when I look at photos like this or those videos you posted.
[QUOTE=Discobold;7032261]
JER - Are you joking ? I thought you were being “tongue in cheek,” and so was I. Your phrase and mine are synonymous in my part of the world. Why would I “imagine” that you would use “inflammatory language” about someone you obviously respect (and so do I)?[/QUOTE]
Of course I was joking. I even used one of these in my response.
Your whole post made me laugh out loud, but, oh dear, let’s just say, we were very, very worried (we being the SJ staff at our last horse trial). As we were picking her up off the ground and handing her to the EMT, she said “I didn’t see that coming.” Unfortunately, we had, from the second she came in the ring.
To be fair, I doubt she was north of 70.
I saw a rider the following weekend at our unrecognized who I KNOW is over 70, riding beautifully on a horse she made up herself, now competing at a lower level than they used to ride at.
I’m just hoping by the time we all roll around to that age someone will be brave enough to tell us if we are making people afraid…
And to keep this on point, I thought the John French video was MUCH nicer than the other one. Horse was more balanced and ride was quiet.
I’m just hoping by the time we all roll around to that age someone will be brave enough to tell us if we are making people afraid…[/QUOTE]
I’m not so sure. As long as the horse’s welfare isn’t being compromised (and let’s be honest, some people ride badly whether they’re 10, 50 or 100), I’d think there are worse ways to spend one’s time.
? I thought you were being “tongue in cheek,” and so was I. Your phrase and mine are synonymous in my part of the world. Why would I “imagine” that you would use “inflammatory language” about someone you obviously respect (and so do I)?