Rich Fellers

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@kenyarider

Further comments. The unnamed trainer in Oregon was not under any SS requirements when he allegedly engaged in “sexual” behavior with a woman under 18, nor was his spouse. Sexual misbehavior is complicated and has many causes. It is also especially in juveniles, very treatable. Adults can learn to modify their behaviors with treatment and support. So perhaps it is time to stop gossiping about a situation that happened some time ago where the victims are NOT complaining and it appears there the treatment or therapy worked. Jimmy Williams and George Morris were unapologetic about their behavior. Rich Fellers is slient so far. My point is that assuming that a person is a “child molester” FOREVER is unfair and uncalled for. How many of you want to be judged and recollected by your most heinous acts?

Follow up comments…

1. A female under the age of 18 is not a ‘woman’ … she’s a minor. And therefore off limits.

2. SS requirements might not have existed when this activity occurred, but there were certainly laws on the books against statutory rape. If he ignored those laws back then, why should anyone presume he will abide by SS requirements (which carry less severe penalties) now? I don’t follow the logic with this.

3. Sexual misbehavior in juveniles might very well be treatable. But that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing an adult male, between 30-50 years old, engaging in sex with at least one significantly underaged teenaged female, as well as another who was allegedly in her later teens, but an employee at the time(?) - the story is unclear. And there are rumors of him making advances on additional teens… So, though this all might be characterized as “gossip” … that’s a substantial amount of gossip and what can reasonably described as a pattern of behavior on the part of a grown male, not a juvenile. So I’m not sure how the statement that sexual misbehavior in juveniles is “very treatable” applies to this situation. I’m being crystal clear, because I think it’s important to not engage in obfuscation, even unintentionally, when talking about sensitive matters like this.

4. Why is it time for people to stop gossiping about this situation? Because gossiping is bad? Personally, I think statutory rape is worse than gossiping. If continuing to discuss it leads the parent of a minor student to switch programs, and that minor is then spared a life changing, soul crushing experience… well… I think that’s a good thing, and the ‘gossiping’ was just fine.

5. You seem to assume that some sort of treatment or therapy occurred, and that it worked, and this everything is fine and it’s time to move on. Do you believe anyone who has committed statutory rape should just be given a very generous benefit of the doubt like that? Should teachers? Priests? Should we just stop worrying about it, even though there was no accountability legally speaking in the aftermath, and assume the perpetrator is “treated” and it’s fine for them to continue to hold a position of trust and influence snd work closely with teenagers? In case it wasn’t obvious… I disagree. But it’s ok for us to have different opinions.

6. As far as the fairness of assuming someone is a child molester or sexual predator forever… well… as a parent, if I happen to know that an adult has a history of that sort of behavior… you BET I will assume the worst forever and keep my child away from that adult. Because my priority is my child’s safety… not ‘fairness’ to an adult who has engaged in criminal sexual behavior. I also would hope other adults who knew of the history related to this guy would prioritize the safety of minors over and above “fairness” to him with respect to not assuming his past behavior predicts his future behavior. But, different strokes for different folks.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Thanks for sharing that perspective with respect to alcoholism, substance abuse and recovery. Valuable food for thought.

Best of luck with your own continued recovery

[Scribbler]

Honestly I doubt there are that many adult men that only get sexual with one 14 year old and then stop. Because most men, I’d say almost all men, do not get sexual with young teens at all, period. It has been illegal forever, certainly since I was that age.

And getting sexual isn’t something that just happens out of thin air. They have been working this for a while, grooming or seducing. It’s not like two 22 year olds both with loads of previous experience hooking up at a night club no strings attached. The child has to be led, coerced, talked into it, and most importantly left feeling ashamed enough that they won’t go to the police.

Now it’s possible the adult man has been trying and trying and his success rate is low. Or that kids or parents got nervous and bolted from the program. But I honestly would not trust a man with any hint of this around teenage girls even if he never quite succeeded. I also don’t think they necessarily age out. RF was 61.

What you do about this as an adult client not on the receiving end of his attention is up to you and your moral compass. What you do about your acquaintances and friends that make different choices than you in this regard is complex, especially in the absence of actual criminal charges or SS sanctions.

But everyone should click through and read the article about Salinger. In the pre Internet era, his letters are a paper trail to the kind of manipulation this involves.

[Railbird]

Happy to. Really chaps my ass when people pull the recovery card as though it’s a get out of jail free pass

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@BlueMoonJumper

Yet, if sex crimes are notoriously underreported, and exceedingly difficult to prosecute, and even more difficult to win conviction on (and all the above have been demonstrated to be true) then these low 5-year recidivism rates start to take on a different character, at least to my eyes.

THIS.

According to RAINN, out of every 1000 sexual assaults,

Approximately 310 are reported to police

Out of those 310 reported sexual assaults

Approximately 50 result in an arrest

Out of those 50 arrests for sexual assault

Approximately 28 will lead to a felony conviction

So… that’s 28 felony convictions per 1000 sexual assaults.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

So recidivism rates that were calculated based on being arrested a second time for a sex crime, in the context of examining prison policy, and published by a group that advocates in favor of LESS mass incarceration (including for rapists apparently)? Yeah… those rates likely are low. Sexual assaults often don’t result in arrests, even when they are reported.

And yet… there actually are advocacy groups devoted to calling for even LESS jail time and penalties for those convicted of rape because they believe these stats indicate that the risk of reoffending is low. Huh. An argument can easily be made that the stats indicate it’s challenging to build enough of a case to arrest people for sexual assault.

Oh well. The legal system is based on advocacy for both sides… and that’s a good thing in general. But certainly agitating at times.

[oreo_mom]

I’m amazed all these women waited to have sex until they were 18 or married. Times really are different now.
Question: isn’t it interesting that no Hunter trainers have any problems? I’m amazed at that also.

[ladyj79]

@oreo_mom

I’m amazed all these women waited to have sex until they were 18 or married. Times really are different now.
Question: isn’t it interesting that no Hunter trainers have any problems? I’m amazed at that also.

So the first part is “sarcasm” but the second part, are you being serious? Cause you may not know who hunter trainers are if you are being serious.

[vxf111]

@ladyj79

@oreo_mom

I’m amazed all these women waited to have sex until they were 18 or married. Times really are different now.
Question: isn’t it interesting that no Hunter trainers have any problems? I’m amazed at that also.

So the first part is “sarcasm” but the second part, are you being serious? Cause you may not know who hunter trainers are if you are being serious.

She is trolling. Do not feed her.

[BlueMoonJumper]

Exactly, @Virginia_Horse_Mom. Also, I would like to clarify that when I’m talking about people like the subject of this thread, I am talking about abusers. Abusers, IME, don’t just turn into stand-up people if they’re caught once. They refine their methods to reduce their likelihood of getting caught again, and move on to different victims.

[ladyj79]

Oh I know she’s a wacky troll, it’s just so wildly uninformed about the basic who’s who of horses that it isn’t even good trolling on a horse board. Like go troll a board where you have some passing familiarity with the subject maybe?

[FitzE]

1000 times this!

[FitzE]

Honest question: why does anyone need a second chance? Why must they still be allowed to ply this particular trade after molesting children? So, even your “someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life” may still not qualify to continue teaching/training/being around junior riders. Period.

You asked how the industry should handle someone like that: I say, by decertifying, banning for life, disqualifying, etc. They can still go on with their lives and do other things, but there is absolutely NO reason why the industry should ever tolerate them again.

I’m a lawyer. There are things - much less catastrophic - that I could do to get myself disbarred from ever practicing law again. It would destroy my livelihood and career and forever alter my life trajectory for the worse. But if I did them, I’d still be disbarred and the legal industry would not need to handle me any other way even if I was “really reformed and changed [my] life.”

Ex: there was a very famous lawyer with an enormously powerful position at a US law firm who was involved in the Varsity Blues scandal. He can no longer practice law. I’d rather 100 men cheat on college admissions a year rather than one more RF or GM harm a child like Maggie. If that guy can suffer the consequences of his VASTLY less damaging actions, folks like RF sure as hell can.

Sometimes what you do brings about the end of something. Actions have consequences, some of which are forever. People can and do violate the standards of practice for their industry every day and they deal with the fall out of being thrown out of that industry and no longer able to practice their former trade. Horse trainers should be no different.

[FitzE]

Forgiveness is for interpersonal relationships. We are talking about PROFESSIONAL consequences for criminal activity. Since you asked, many, many, many people are judged and do live with the fallout of their most heinous acts even when those acts are VASTLY less heinous, damaging and disgusting than child molestation. Please see the example I noted above.

Getting kicked out of your professional organization, being stripped of your qualifications, and being forever prohibited from practicing that trade again happens ALL. THE. TIME.

RF and other horse trainers are no better or different or special and there is ZERO reason they not should suffer the same swift, decisive, and permanent consequences that other professionals live with.

There’s got to be a line we draw - a bright line rule - the violation of which is a one-way ticket out of the industry permanently. If sex with children is not that line for you, then all I can say is may god have mercy on your soul because, otherwise, I have no way of responding to that. If this is not our sticking point then literally nothing matters.

[Highflyer1]

To be honest until this thread I didn’t realize that there were people out there who believed this. Sex offenders absolutely need opportunities to support themselves by working for a living; they should be able to that working with horses if their crimes don’t involve animal abuse. But they shouldn’t be able to do it with children, no matter how successful their rehabilitation has been and no matter what the recidivism rates are.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@FitzE

There’s got to be a line we draw - a bright line rule - the violation of which is a one-way ticket out of the industry permanently. If sex with children is not that line for you, then all I can say is may god have mercy on your soul because, otherwise, I have no way of responding to that. If this is not our sticking point then literally nothing matters.

Thank you. It really is that simple. Or at least it should be.

[iridedressage]

So on this thread I’ve seen in reference to adult men and children “getting sexual with”, “molesting”, “having sex with”, etc.
It is none of those things. An adult rapes a child. There is no way to make rape politically correct. It is rape and nothing else.

[FitzE]

Yes, I should have said child sexual exploitation or rape, not molestation.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

I interviewed a man convicted of sexual offences. He said about the victim, “that stupid bitch, she’s just making trouble.”

The victim was his 4yo granddaughter. She told her mother, who was also a victim of his (don’t get me started as to what possessed her to leave her two young daughters in his care, after he had raped her as a child!!)

He was truly disgusting, and never ever admitted what he did was wrong.

True child sex offenders rarely rehabilitate. It is either a sexual attraction to children, or an opportunistic offence where the victim happened to be a child. People with sexual attractions to children can exist and never offend against someone - including child porn - but they are a true minority.

Offenders who view child porn are frequent reoffenders (true sexual deviates). They will never rehabilitate, just get caught less often. Opportunistic sexual offenders may never reoffend, as the circumstances in which the offence occurred may never reoccur (offences against own children). Have they rehabilitated, or just been curtailed?

If someone doesn’t get caught reoffending, it doesn’t mean they have “rehabilitated”.

[Jenerationx]

There is no such thing as a child molester or rapist that violates one child and then miraculously stops for the rest of their lives because they stopped drinking, or got therapy. There are just predators that stop getting caught or predators that haven’t found the opportunity to act again… YET.

[trubandloki]

@FitzE, thank you for your posts explaining the difference between getting a second chance and the whole professional ability to do a certain career.
They were great posts and kind of a light bulb thing for me. Very well said and the examples made it so easy to understand.