Rich Fellers

[Night_Flight]

@Arlomine

Well, I’m insulted.
I’m a professional, I have a BA, I am literate, and I support safesport. I have defended it to many of my contemporaries. I have jeopardized a friendship with someone who is a past employee of RF, and is in denial that he is a predator. I teach kids, and I want to punch anyone who uses the hero-worship aspect of being a trainer to access prey.

Some/MOST of us are NOT at all like you describe. We do this because we love horses, have a drive to somehow make it work financially, and work hard to do it within the perimeters of living an ethical life.

When the Me Too scandal was in the news, a lot of men were offended; remember #notallmen?

Do you think that in the end, it was worth offending a few men in order to have more openness about sexual assault? I do. We can speak about it much more openly now and while there is still a long way to go, the Me Too movement has resulted in more women being believed and more women feeling like they can tell their stories.

Of course not all coaches are bad, just like not all men are bad. We should still take advantage of any situation that creates a safer environment in our sport, even if it results in a few trainers feeling offended for a short while.

[Thoroughbred1201]

I agree. And it’s called an echo chamber. You ride in the program. Everybody around you is saying, “it’s fine, he doesn’t do it anymore.” They tell you it’s long over, and it won’t happen again. But THEY all have a vested financial interest. That’s all you hear. You hear nothing dissenting. You are told what you want to hear. Your horse gets great care, and you win at the shows. And life goes on. We see it in politics all the time.

But at the same time, I’ve watched as the perpetrator is no longer listed as trainer. Now days, it’s usually just the wife. You hardly ever see his name in print on online entry sites like HorseShowTime. Before hand it was always ‘His name and her name’ as trainer. Now, just hers. He’s listed as a rider, but not the trainer. Coincidence? I don’t think so. I think that she is smart and careful.

And junior riders and their families still flock to them.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I agree 100% with your description of how all of this works in terms of it being an echo chamber.

And you are right… she is smart. But you know what? Not that smart. If he gets sanctioned by SafeSport, the business WILL be impacted/destroyed. Trying to sweep it under the rug and keep it all there is a substantial risk… for many reasons. If all the rumors about his behavior over the years are true… I seriously don’t understand why divorce papers haven’t been filed.

[Thoroughbred1201]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

And you are right… she is smart. But you know what? Not that smart. If he gets sanctioned by SafeSport, the business WILL be impacted/destroyed. Trying to sweep it under the rug and keep it all there is a substantial risk… for many reasons. If all the rumors about his behavior over the years are true… I seriously don’t understand why divorce papers haven’t been filed.

Money and success can make people do (and put up with) funny things.

[mvp]

@BITSA

It does make more sense, thank you, but the situation still frustrates me. How do we end the apathy so that our kids don’t have to give up something they love because people don’t care about significant and destructive issues?

I live in Oregon so the Rich issue is a particularly big issue. I’ve been relieved that so many seem to believe Maggie, despite their “hero” being the bad guy.

But I still see the apathy. I asked a rider, another adult ammy, who I really like, how she could ride at another barn where the male trainer (not Rich but mentioned many times on this thread as having been a known predator) could ride with that trainer. He response was that he went through a serious alcohol problem when those situations occurred (about 10 years ago), he’s become sober since, and she’s seen no indication of anything similar happening in the years she’s ridden there so there is no current danger to girls in the program.

How do we make the industry better when there is such a willingness to forgive and forget child molestation? I don’t have an answer. I do think SafeSport training needs to be given to the kids themselves though and I don’t understand why its not. But until adults are willing to–like you say move barns and vote with their feet–nothing will meaningfully change. And as a mom of a 15 year old daughter, that’s very disheartening.

Hold up.

The PNW pro friend of mine reported the same change in Campf and was of the same opinion that that’s the reason for Oregon folks in the SafeSport era doing something like “tolerating the open secret” of how he used to roll. Their point was that he is not a present danger.

So what, exactly, do you want, BITSA? I’m not asking this to be sarcastic and mean toward you, or rhetorical. Rather, I’m asking, genuinely, how you’d like the industry to handle someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life. After all, your 15-year-old isn’t at risk.

That said, I’d like to see a suspension of the Statute of Limitations extend for a time for sexual predation crimes and these guys nailed to the way. To me, being drunk (or a drunk or a junkie or whatever) does not at all absolve one of any responsibility for molesting minors. And plenty of recovering alcoholics and addicts have “the wreckage of their past” catch up with them in sobriety.

Short of that, I think it’s every customer’s prerogative to use the power of their wallet and their feet to support-- or withdraw support-- from causes that express their values. I don’t think people who have abused children should be rewarded, so, at the very least, they won’t be paid by me.

I don’t have a great deal of money/power but I absolutely use what I have to promote the ethical treatment of people.

[BITSA]

@mvp

Hold up.

The PNW pro friend of mine reported the same change in Campf and was of the same opinion that that’s the reason for Oregon folks in the SafeSport era doing something like “tolerating the open secret” of how he used to roll. Their point was that he is not a present danger.

So what, exactly, do you want, BITSA? I’m not asking this to be sarcastic and mean toward you, or rhetorical. Rather, I’m asking, genuinely, how you’d like the industry to handle someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life. After all, your 15-year-old isn’t at risk.

So all is forgiven? There’s a child-molester free pass after what, one-year, five? The point made by one of the posters above is that people who do this don’t change. They get smarter, there may be a gap in conduct, but its not curable like a cold. I don’t know that my 15 year old or someone else’s isn’t at risk; there just hasn’t been a problem recently. For me–my daughter will never ride at a barn with a known child molester–I don’t care how many years ago it was. He didn’t get a speeding ticket or steal a TV. He had sex with underage girls. The “industry” meaning parents, clients, and owners should not want to reward someone who literally ruined girls’ lives while committing crimes against those girls. Maybe my background as a prosecutor being married to a child abuse detective gives me a different perspective, but you don’t “reform” sexual predators.

In Oregon, the statute of limitations for sex crimes if the victim was a child, is extended until the victim turns 40 years old or 5 years after the victim knew or should have known of the causal connection of the injury and the child abuse, whichever is later.

[crimsonrose]

I would argue that if the issue that prompted the reform involved a minor (ie sexual abuse of a minor charged with RF, sexual misconduct etc), there is no real reform until that individual faces the consequences of their actions. That’s not just a mistake or a life lesson that we can brush off and should sweep under the rug; that’s criminal behavior. I would say that for any individual and not just the ones we mentioned. Our kids deserve better.

[mvp]

@BITSA

@mvp

Hold up.

The PNW pro friend of mine reported the same change in Campf and was of the same opinion that that’s the reason for Oregon folks in the SafeSport era doing something like “tolerating the open secret” of how he used to roll. Their point was that he is not a present danger.

So what, exactly, do you want, BITSA? I’m not asking this to be sarcastic and mean toward you, or rhetorical. Rather, I’m asking, genuinely, how you’d like the industry to handle someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life. After all, your 15-year-old isn’t at risk.

So all is forgiven? There’s a child-molester free pass after what, one-year, five? The point made by one of the posters above is that people who do this don’t change. They get smarter, there may be a gap in conduct, but its not curable like a cold. I don’t know that my 15 year old or someone else’s isn’t at risk; there just hasn’t been a problem recently. For me–my daughter will never ride at a barn with a known child molester–I don’t care how many years ago it was. He didn’t get a speeding ticket or steal a TV. He had sex with underage girls. The “industry” meaning parents, clients, and owners should not want to reward someone who literally ruined girls’ lives while committing crimes against those girls.

I did not say he was forgiven. You may wish to read my post again to show me where I said that.

But then, again, so much of what SafeSport does is limit risk. That’s the justification for suspending folks during the investigation.

If you want to punish a sex offender forever, that’s fine with me. But know that that’s not the basis of your argument that referenced your now 15-year-old kid.

[BITSA]

I wasn’t talking about SafeSport, I was talking about apathy of a client as a more widespread problem in changing the industry. And I disagree re my 15 year old; I don’t think sexual predators of children get reformed so easily.

[BITSA]

@mvp

Rather, I’m asking, genuinely, how you’d like the industry to handle someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life. After all, your 15-year-old isn’t at risk.

This sure sounds like he’s being forgiven; no consequence for past actions and no accountability seems to be very similar to forgiveness at the least.

[Thoroughbred1201]

@crimsonrose

I would argue that if the issue that prompted the reform involved a minor (ie sexual abuse of a minor charged with RF, sexual misconduct etc), there is no real reform until that individual faces the consequences of their actions. That’s not just a mistake or a life lesson that we can brush off and should sweep under the rug; that’s criminal behavior. I would say that for any individual and not just the ones we mentioned. Our kids deserve better. Furthermore, criminal justice data does show that these types of behaviors or actions are rarely “one off” events.

Much like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, is trainer who had sex with minors in a period of his life still always a sex offender? I don’t know. Greater minds than mine will have to figure that one out. But I do know that the rumors swirled around this particular trainer for years before the final issue became public.

I believe in forgiveness and redemption. For all we know, he’s asked forgiveness of his victims, and they have granted it. I don’t have a clue. But I do know, I wouldn’t want to put that kind of temptation in front of him. Would you offer an alcoholic a drink knowing the likely outcome?

So maybe change the clientele - teach mostly amateurs. But they are still equitation specialists, and haven’t changed their business model a bit. And if he slips, just once? What happens then. Kind of like an alcoholic working as a bartender.

The ramifications are unthinkable.

[mvp]

@BITSA

@mvp

Rather, I’m asking, genuinely, how you’d like the industry to handle someone who would appear to have really reformed and changed his life. After all, your 15-year-old isn’t at risk.

This sure sounds like he’s being forgiven; no consequence for past actions and no accountability seems to be very similar to forgiveness at the least.

You have misread me.

[kenyarider]

As someone who also lived in Oregon, practised criminal defense in Oregon and Washington, and knew the parties named and unnamed; here’s some science about recividism and which categories of crimes actually have the highest rate of recividism. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2019/06/06/sexoffenses/

Further comments. The unnamed trainer in Oregon was not under any SS requirements when he allegedly engaged in “sexual” behavior with a woman under 18, nor was his spouse. Sexual misbehavior is complicated and has many causes. It is also especially in juveniles, very treatable. Adults can learn to modify their behaviors with treatment and support. So perhaps it is time to stop gossiping about a situation that happened some time ago where the victims are NOT complaining and it appears there the treatment or therapy worked. Jimmy Williams and George Morris were unapologetic about their behavior. Rich Fellers is slient so far. My point is that assuming that a person is a “child molester” FOREVER is unfair and uncalled for. How many of you want to be judged and recollected by your most heinous acts?

Before the flames start, I know Rich Fellers and unnamed trainer but we are NOT anything more than mere acquaintances if that.

[Thoroughbred1201]

@kenyarider

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2019/06/06/sexoffenses/

Interesting reading. Very different from what I thought.

@kenyarider

Adults can learn to modify their behaviors with treatment and support. So perhaps it is time to stop gossiping about a situation that happened some time ago where the victims are NOT complaining and it appears there the treatment or therapy worked. Jimmy Williams and George Morris were unapologetic about their behavior. Rich Fellers is slient so far.

As I spoke about forgiveness and redemption, you point to a very specific point - we have no knowledge of how the unnamed trainer feels, felt or acted. Well, you may have more of an idea than I do, as I was unaware of the alcohol, etc. Has he indeed gone through therapy, and redeemed himself? If so, then yes, I’d say he shouldn’t be judged. But on him, as a person who is in the PNW, I’d personally pass on him as a trainer. I heard enough and saw enough that their program isn’t one I’d want to be a part of.

On the other hand, I know of another trainer years ago who’s marriage did break up over his affair with a minor (barely) student. But as far as I’m aware, it was a one off, and he’s gone on to live a truly exemplary life.

So I think on a personal level, each person must decide for themselves, as we never really know what is in a person’s heart. That said however, I think as an amateur, that is easy to say. As a parent of a horse crazy kid, well, I think the best interests of the child is number one, and I’d never take the chance. There are too many good horse trainers out there.

As far as SafeSport goes - the protection of the student is paramount. Whether he is redeemed or not, changed or not, if somebody lodges a report, and it’s upheld, he should be out. Do the deed, do the time. But if nobody files a report (is that the term?), and nobody sees him as a threat, then he’s dodged a bullet and life goes on. In Maggie’s case, an outside party felt she was in danger and lodged a report. Maggie herself did not. So if nobody sees children at risk, then as I said, life goes on. There will probably always be a cloud over his head, but that’s life - natural consequence of a heinous act.

Adults in a position of power sleeping with underage minors is always wrong, no doubt about it. It’s the question of punishment. SafeSport is not a court. But it does exist to make sure it does not become a pattern of behavior that is tolerated in sport.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@kenyarider

So perhaps it is time to stop gossiping about a situation that happened some time ago where the victims are NOT complaining and it appears there the treatment or therapy worked.

I don’t even have words for this statement. Acknowledging they are victims but they are not complaining so what does it matter… (and I have no clue to whom this is referencing but that statement is disgusting).

[hoopoe]

@BITSA

He response was that he went through a serious alcohol problem when those situations occurred (about 10 years ago), he’s become sober since, and she’s seen no indication of anything similar happening in the years she’s ridden there so there is no current danger to girls in the program

and has she personally had a word with these girls or with their parents to make them aware of ( real or rumored) past history. If not, then the girls may just as easily be keeping their secret. Just because she does not SEE it does not equal it not happening. Was past behavior so blatant that everyone SAW it.

If so may I say WTF people?

THIS is the issue I spoke about up thread. She turns a blind eye because it is more convenient.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Thoroughbred1201

As I spoke about forgiveness and redemption, you point to a very specific point - we have no knowledge of how the unnamed trainer feels, felt or acted. Well, you may have more of an idea than I do, as I was unaware of the alcohol, etc. Has he indeed gone through therapy, and redeemed himself? If so, then yes, I’d say he shouldn’t be judged.

I disagree.

Adults having sex with minors is ILLEGAL.

It doesn’t matter if they are alcoholics and were drunk at the time.

It doesn’t matter if they are sorry now.

It doesn’t matter if they apologized to the victim.

It doesn’t matter if they attended therapy.

It doesn’t matter if they “redeemed” themselves.

A 40 something year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl is a crime. Full stop.

It’s fair to say that compiling adequate evidence to prove it in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt is a challenge… and it’s an uphill battle to convict a person of this crime years after the fact.

But conviction in a court of law is a different thing than social condemnation of a person who committed a sexual crime against a 14 year old child.

I have zero problem with judging him for that crime. I’m perplexed by people who seem to be looking for reasons to not judge him for it, and who seem quite willing to presume he is a ‘reformed’ predator… even though he suffered no criminal consequences for what was clearly a crime.

[Thoroughbred1201]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@Thoroughbred1201

As I spoke about forgiveness and redemption, you point to a very specific point - we have no knowledge of how the unnamed trainer feels, felt or acted. Well, you may have more of an idea than I do, as I was unaware of the alcohol, etc. Has he indeed gone through therapy, and redeemed himself? If so, then yes, I’d say he shouldn’t be judged.

I disagree.

I think that we are talking about two different things. The act of molesting is absolutely illegal. I’m not saying ignore the consequences of his actions. The judgement I’m talking about is a personal judgement. I can feel sympathy for a person who has acted heinously and is truly remorseful, but that doesn’t mean I don’t wish to see them suffer the consequences.

Also, my full quote is clearer on the subject.

@Thoroughbred1201

As I spoke about forgiveness and redemption, you point to a very specific point - we have no knowledge of how the unnamed trainer feels, felt or acted. Well, you may have more of an idea than I do, as I was unaware of the alcohol, etc. Has he indeed gone through therapy, and redeemed himself? If so, then yes, I’d say he shouldn’t be judged. But on him, as a person who is in the PNW, I’d personally pass on him as a trainer. I heard enough and saw enough that their program isn’t one I’d want to be a part of.

I’m also not looking for reasons not to judge him. I’m also not saying he’s redeemed. I believe he is guilty, and I would love for SafeSport and the Criminal Courts to set him down. But I’m also not a lawyer and people are not black and white.

I don’t know who makes the call on a person who grooms children, and has a pattern of it over years, and is truly a child molester in the biggest terms (think George Morris and Jimmy Williams), and somebody who does it once, shows remorse and recompense and tries to help the victim, are treated. Both neither are any less less guilty than the other, and both deserve the same consequences. One will certainly reoffend and the other may not. In a perfect world, I’d love to see each banned for life from the sport. But it’s not a perfect world (especially for the victims!!!), and people will choose to report on what they see and know of the person.

So understanding motives as to WHY people don’t report IS important. They may truly believe the offender has reformed. We also need to why people do report. The person who reported Rich Fellers for abusing Maggie has my utmost admiration. SafeSport and the Criminal Courts and lawyers like Kenyarider have the really difficult task of sorting out what to do. I don’t envy them.

This type of discussion has revolved around many topics of sex and power and consent. So many things discussed here have been heard about the #metoo movement.

But throughout all of this discussion, the victims are the one who need to be remember. Regardless of the discussion of guilt, redemption, banning and criminal charges, they are the ones who must live with it the rest of their lives.

[BlueMoonJumper]

@kenyarider

As someone who also lived in Oregon, practised criminal defense in Oregon and Washington, and knew the parties named and unnamed; here’s some science about recividism and which categories of crimes actually have the highest rate of recividism. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2019/06/06/sexoffenses/

@kenyarider At first blush this sounds like a totally reasoned analysis, however, in the footnotes it’s acknowledged that ‘recidivism’ as they are using it only includes arrests and convictions.

Yet, if sex crimes are notoriously underreported, and exceedingly difficult to prosecute, and even more difficult to win conviction on (and all the above have been demonstrated to be true) then these low 5-year recidivism rates start to take on a different character, at least to my eyes.

[Railbird]

Just speaking as a recovering addict/alcoholic, since the analogy is coming up, being in recovery does not absolve us of the consequences of our actions. In the aftermath of my own sexual assault I had a total break with reality and lost many friends I had in the horse world. Years of 12 step meetings and therapy mean that I can sleep at night, even if I deeply regret some actions in my past. I lost the right to be treated the same way as someone who never drank and used drugs and did the things that drunk/high/crazy people do.

That’s why there’s the expression of the dry drunk in AA specifically- just because you’ve stopped using doesn’t mean that you’ve meaningfully addressed that diseased part of your brain that distorts reality so deeply. As it applies to the people who abused children in the past (and the analogy that perhaps unintentionally lumps me in with them and really makes me want to puke) - if they are not meaningfully changing their behavior in other ways than just stopping abusing children, or stopping drinking, I don’t buy it. Continuing to work with children is inappropriate and, to me, makes any promises of changed behavior ring hollow.

Part of changing yourself means accepting the consequences of your actions.