Rich Fellers

[poltroon]

@Moneypitt

Point being, bail is set higher to keep those ‘alleged’ perpetrators, in jail here, until their trials.

Not everyone has the means to post five figure bail amounts.

Sure, that’s the theory. It boils down though to “rich people aren’t flight risks and aren’t dangerous, and poor people are.” Which, actually, is nonsensical.

You’d be shocked at the dirtbags that in fact do apparently have the means to post bond on a five figure bail amount.

In the meantime, people who don’t have that money end up losing their jobs or their kids because they can’t get home, and they may be innocent. Sometimes prosecutors use this to get people to plead to crimes they didn’t commit by abusing the bail process. Good for the win percentage.

The intended purpose is to get them to show up for a trial, and an ankle bracelet and a text message reminder is statistically shown to work at least as well or better. If they need to stay in jail until trial because they are too dangerous, then we shouldn’t allow bail at any amount.

[Scribbler]

Oh yes I wasn’t even thinking about family members.

[Moneypitt]

Yeah. Could be!

It’s a pretty high crime county, here. Mostly, seems to be catch and release type of situation. I noticed a definite difference though, in child porn or child molestation type cases. They don’t seem to mess around with that.

I have ‘heard’ from more than one source; the county here; is being paid to accept released criminals from other areas and states for $$$. They bus them in at night… Craziness?

[Trendline]

May we set aside discussions about legal and equestrian-community punishments, bail amounts,NDA’s, and so forth–just for a minute?

There are a couple hard realities to face:

1. What is now considered sexual abuse of a (teenage) minor was tolerated in the equestrian community and in society at large for decades. The word “tolerated” is key here. To tolerate a behavior is different than approving of it. In fact, the behavior may be widely disapproved of, but if it is allowed to go on without check, it is tolerated. No way around it.

2. It is all very well to punish sexual abuse, but no amount of punishment for the perpetrator removes the injury to the victim. A victim no doubt values support from the community, but not even that erases the injury.

So. While SafeSport and legal sanctions are appropriate and may be effective as deterrents, the more important focus should be on preventing sexual abuse in the first place. How to do that? Educate young people. Educate the adults around them–their parents, their parents’ friends, their adult barn mates-- not just the pros who are required to take SafeSport training. That means “If you see something, SAY something!”

Personal story: When I was the single mom of a fourteen-year-old horse-crazy girl, I was prepared to make financial sacrifices so she could pursue hunter-jumper training. One day, in conversation with a woman who’d been in the local scene a long time, I mentioned that I was looking for a board-and-training program, and was considering the one at BarnX. The woman glanced around nervously, then in a very low voice said “I would steer clear if I were you. And that’s all I’m going to say.”

Few words, but the expression on her face was enough to make me pass on Barn X and keep looking. I know people are reluctant to speak up. They fear reprisals, they don’t want to be dragged into an ugly dispute, with people taking sides, and they find it easier to justify keeping their mouths shut: It’s really none of my business, and anyway, what if I’m wrong?

But what has really annoyed me are some remarks on this thread and others dealing with sexual misconduct issues, comments like “Well, it’s about time!” (referring to a trainer who’s been outed). Or “What about So-and-So?” (referring to a trainer whose misconduct has so far escaped sanction).
And most annoying of all: “It was an open secret!” Or “Everybody knew!”

No. Everybody DIDN’T know. I sure didn’t. There are plenty of non-horsey parents who aren’t privy to “insider” information and whose kids could end up in a bad situation.

On one COTH thread, a poster described an abusive relationship they watched in action at a show prior to the institution of SafeSport. Another poster asked if they’d reported it, and the OP’s shrugging response was “Who should I have reported it to?”

That’s a cop-out. Even a quiet word can put innocents on alert and offenders on notice.

So I say to all you posters who are the “everybodies” who’ve seen something and said nothing, yet now are all full of self-righteous anger: Put down your pitchforks and zip it with your rhetoric about how brave it is to come forward and how you support victims, yada yada. It rings hollow. Just vow to step up and do better in the future.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

As for not reporting being a cop-out, that’s not true. Plenty of offenders have the financial or social means to keep people quiet. If you speak out to the wrong person/s, you run the risk of having yourself blacklisted, threatened with legal action, threatened with violence, have your horse/s threatened…

That’s why people don’t speak out, except to give “veiled” hints to stay away. Many top trainers have a lot of influence in the industry. Look at Hollywood - people who speak up get blacklisted and lose their incomes.

[poltroon]

I agree with your points, Trendline (and welcome!)

Lots of people don’t know, or didn’t know. And it’s been a persistent problem of culture for students to take verbal abuse from trainers, to be taught to obey them without question, and for all kinds of poor ethics to be excused.

But some hasn’t been that hidden. It’s been distressingly common for a successful male trainer to marry a new 19 year old wife every 20 years or so, from their own clientele. Or similarly adopt a new “business partner.” I see that and I think, hmm, not sure that’s a good place for my teenager.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

Whoa. Did I hear that right? Sexual abuse of horses? For that, and I mean this quite literally, he should hang.

[Midge]

@NSC_Los_Angeles

Whoa. Did I hear that right? Sexual abuse of horses? For that, and I mean this quite literally, he should hang.

Rapping, not raping.

[Knights_Mom]

Rapping. Not raping. Not sex abuse. Hitting their legs painfully during jumping practice so they pick their legs up higher.

[Knights_Mom]

Rapping Definition:

Poling or rapping is the practice of hitting a horse on the legs as it goes over a jump, to make it think it hit the fence hard (due to the pain), so the animal will pick his legs up higher the next time. It is usually performed using a long bamboo stick, which is smacked on the cannon bones of the horse.

Poling is illegal under FEI rules, as well as under many national rules.[1] Show jumpers and hunt seat competitors were the most common users of this technique, as a rail down is often a deciding factor in winning a class. However, the practice is seen today as too painful for the horse.

In popular cultureEdit

Poling can be seen in a scene of the movie National Velvet , when Mi Taylor hits the Pie on the legs as Velvet rides him over an obstacle in a training session.

It can also be seen being used by Harry DeLeyer while working with his son’s horse in the documentary Harry and Snowman.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

Oh! Thanks for clarifying. Still absolutely horrible but I’m relieved it wasn’t what I thought. I hope he does real time for his crimes.

[McGurk]

The descriptions above are sort of the plain vanilla version of poling or rapping.

Their are also versions where the pole is electrified (GM references this in his biography ) or has tacks in it and a really lovely version where the horse’s shins are sored first so the rap with the pole is more painful. Devin Ryan’s expulsion from the Hampton Classic in 2015 was due to his horse’s legs showing clear signs of soring.

These are the things that make me despair for the sport.

And someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe it’s only illegal if done on the showgrounds under FEI/USE rules. You can rap and pole at home all you want. (In Devin Ryan’s case, it wasn’t the poling, it was that his horse’s shins were raw.) I believe the FEI rules state you can’t trailer off the showground once the show is in progress, in other words, you can’t haul to a neighboring farm to pole your horses and then go back to the show.

I actually don’t think the rap with the bamboo pole, done sparingly, is all that awful. But not a technique I’ve ever used or ever will. The alternative, which you see in warm up rings all the time, is to put the horse to a really deep spot over a warm up fence right before going into the ring, the deep spot causing the horse to make an extra effort to clear the fence or rap themselves. Not a fan of this method because I want my horse to trust me to get him to a good spot; deliberately getting him to a bad one that he has to make a huge effort to jump out or hit himself doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.

An interesting alternative that I learned from a jumper trainer and have used is to have one or two people stand at the back rail of the fence, and when the horse is approaching, lift the back rail and wave it up and down, lifting first one end and then the other. The horse then REALLY focuses on the back rail and tends to jump more carefully.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Schooling Incident at Palm Beach

I have been told of a terrible incident that took place yesterday in Palm Beach. Those of you who have contacts down there may want to look into this as well. A very (very very very) well-known trainer was schooling an Amateur student, and had the student’s horse jump a jump which included a metal pipe as one element. Tragically, in some way the pipe was bumped and dislodged … and the horse came down on it and was impaled. I am told that the horse bled to death on the scene. I don’t know if t…

George accident from rapping/poling a horse

[Bogie]

@McGurk

Their are also versions where the pole is electrified (GM references this in his biography ) or has tacks in it and a really lovely version where the horse’s shins are sored first so the rap with the pole is more painful. Devin Ryan’s expulsion from the Hampton Classic in 2015 was due to his horse’s legs showing clear signs of soring.

After the GM scandal emerged, I read his biography. I was shocked that people still supported him and bowed to his horsemanship when he admits to “training” methods like this. Of course, I’ve also been shocked by the ongoing support (US Team) of Devin Ryan – who was a “hand picked protegé” of Morris (said on his own website). Clearly, our sport has a high tolerance for poor behavior and the methods passed down by the “Gods” of the sport, continue.

[Bluey]

Funny, not so funny story about poling.

Over 50 years ago, jumping stable, somehow our trainer had heard of poling and that a bamboo pole worked best.
Found a bamboo pole and we were thinking poling was a way to teach horses to jump anything, not to be distracted by things in and around the jump.

We draped some old towels over the pole and laid it in the cavalletti cross rails, let horses see and smell them and popped over that.
Then we had two people raising the pole a bit, horses jumping the cross rails.
Then we raised it a bit more and were wiggling the pole and the towels were flapping lightly.
Horses jumped that fine, we were careful not to spook the horses, the idea was to instill confidence.
Eventually we were jumping little oxers, the ones holding the pole and shaking, towels flying around behind the last pole, horses really tight with their knees and over jumping with glee over the new thing.

It seemed so involved, we decided we really didn’t want to spend time “poling” horses.
We didn’t learn until years later what poling really was meant to be.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

I remember poling being referenced in the Sam Savitt book “Vicki and the black horse”, and it was put across as something that would save a horse from a rotational fall. The author was careful to describe the character using poling as doing so “lightly with bamboo, so the horse thought he misguided the fence slightly”, not to inflict pain or fear, or damage the front legs.

[Ghazzu]

I don’t think GM was actively poling the horse w/ the steel pipe.
The idea behind the pipe is that it is heavy and if you set it in a deep jump cup, it tends to stay put rather than fall, so a “lazy” horse will get clonked hard enough that it makes an impression.
(I am not a fan of this, for the record.)
In this case, he was using a short length of pipe and a “skinny” fence, and the horse did hit it hard enough to knock it out of the cups and it went end up on the landing side and horse landed on it.

I’ve always disliked poling as described in previous posts because you are in effect lying to the horse about whether his effort over the fence was sufficient.

[BigMama1]

@Ghazzu

In this case, he was using a short length of pipe and a “skinny” fence, and the horse did hit it hard enough to knock it out of the cups and it went end up on the landing side and horse landed on it.

And this is precisely the reason a good horseman / coach / trainer would never do this, and never allow it to be done in their watch. Basic safety risks like this get covered in Pony Club 101.

We already know GM is not a good person; can we now also dispense with the myth that he’s a great horseman or coach? Why on earth are people still paying take lessons from him?

[McGurk]

The cult of personality is strong with this one.

See also: why do people continue to take lessons with Paul Valliere?

[KellyS]

@Ghazzu

When I helped design an equine studies concentration, I urged the inclusion of a great deal of “business” content, including basic accounting, law pertaining to the horse industry, personnel management, and general business management.

Thank you for doing this!

I always find it sad that people discourage teenagers away from equine science/studies programs. While I do agree that other degrees may be more useful, I would rather see a young person go to college and get a degree rather than go straight into the “horse business”. If this means going through an equine program, so be it.

Both my husband and I have Bachelor of Science degrees in Large Animal Science, which was the degree you received if you followed the Equine Business track at our university. Neither of us had any idea what we wanted to do “when we grew up” but both of us were heavily involved with horses and this degree program attracted us to the university.

The program, for one, is how we met, for which I am forever grateful, and as Ghazzu points out, it was filled with required courses on business management, accounting, law courses–both general and equine-focused, math, and many science courses. After completing our degrees, which included doing required internships over the summer with horse businesses, we both agreed that we did not want to make our living that way. Rather, we wanted to keep horses as a hobby.

This led to both of our finding great careers “outside” of horses, but still linked to what we learned in college. My husband took elective courses in criminal justice and followed that career path, and I did a lot of work establishing a university-wide newsletter that covered happenings in the equine program, as well as tutoring for the university writing center. Those experiences led me to publishing, and I work in medical research publishing (where my science degree has gotten me further than an English/journalism degree).

I promise I’m not trying to derail this thread, but so much of this discussion revolves around teaching what is, and is not, a proper way to run a business. The majority of people I know who work outside of horses are surprised by the vehement response from “professionals” to USE Safe Sport requirements for members, which are easier than the sexual harassment training we go through at work. And for those of us who have done working student stints, many of us have been exposed to the imbalance of power in those relationships, even when it doesn’t result in sexual assault/rape.

Any encouragement we can give to young people to go to college is at least one way to help protect them as a professional as they learn how to run a business properly and also hopefully expose them to a bigger world than the fish bowl of horse sports. In addition, the strong campus focus on protecting yourself from assault and rape may be the first time young people are exposed to that type of information, especially if they’ve homeschooled or done online schooling.

This doesn’t solve all the issues discussed, but education is always a start. It’s just shame that it takes place when most people are already considered adults.