Any member would be expected to report misconduct to SS regardless of who it is, so no spousal exemption there. Again, it’s not a criminal investigation (although that may be reported also) it’s a misconduct investigation by SS. Not the same rules at all.
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As Sadie said, it is important to remember in some sex crimes , ( speaking generally here), the spouse of the perp participates as well Grooming, promoting or perhaps , ultimately, equally present.
Lets try to remember what we learned with the explosion of the Me Too movement.
The fact that some members of an equestrian FB / forum, who are likely mostly female, are quick to victim blame/shame shows some just wont learn the lesson
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Bingo! Seriously too many of us have stories about abusive trainers when we were young. I absolutely agree that there is something about the career of training horses and people that does attract the wrong type of person all too often. I mean to say, “I’m so skilled at this that people should pay me for my training” you have to be either extremely confident, or a raging narcissist, or both.
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Would it be safe to assume you did not travel with them to Sunshine Series 2020? Because a lot of it came out quite openly then and I would think it would be difficult to be in their barn and not know…
And unrelated to your post, it is quite mind boggling to think that the victim was younger than his own daughter.
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Lesurfsf
Is that why their barn was showing half way across the county in Michigan (?) last summer for weeks?
Or was that location their normal summer venue?
Oh, I dunno about narcissists being the common denominator among the people who self-selected into careers that are rife with sexual abuse or pedophilia cases. Would you say that Catholic Priests tend to be narcissists? That group had it’s share of abusers.
What I do think both the insular world of high-end H/J training and the Catholic Church was found to have in common were a whole lot of systems in place (from within and from the “paying customers”) that got everyone to look the other way and to STFU about what they saw.
Then again, that strategy by by-standers of sexual predation has been very, very common everywhere until quite recently.
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Maggie was at their barn in the weeks before GLEF, which RF hadn’t ridden at in the past, and she parted ways with him before he went to GLEF, so it looks like the cat got out of the bag around that time, as Maggie’s Mom was singing and dancing along with the rest of them, to the tune RF was playing. After she left, she was competing against him at GLEF. Whether or not he chose to show at GLEF before or after she parted ways with him is anyone’s guess, but if he did choose to show there as an attempt to intimidate or harass her, that’s going to hurt him in the investigation.
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I don’t think that @Equkelly was saying narcissists are sexual abusers, and I know darn sure that’s not what I was saying in my original statement.
I believe she meant verbal/emotional abuse, which I would agree with.
Look how many pro athletes have narcissistic tendencies, especially in solo sports. It can be quite beneficial to have inflated self-confidence and a self-centered mindset when competing, especially in horse sports where setbacks are ubiquitous.
But the problem is most professional equestrians are simultaneously running businesses and offering coaching/training services in addition to competing. Those self-absorbed tendencies lead to hostile environments where the trainer is blaming everyone else for the trainer’s own shortcomings.
As for gross sex stuff, that’s a whole different situation. In some cases where there are “consensual” incidents (but not really consensual because it never is in a power imbalance), the narcissistic tendencies may be to blame. “It’s not my fault if all these attractive young men/women want to have sex with me, who am I to deny them?” But perpetrators who exhibit predatory behaviors like grooming generally fall under a different set of mental disorders, as you noted in your post.
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If you actually wanted to know the answer, a quick Google search would ha e provided you tons of credible articles and studies in why victims of sexual assault - particularly those who are minors - don’t disclose to their family / friends or report to the police at the time.
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Before I say what I want to say below I feel the need to say that I think all sexual abuse is horrible. Please do not twist what I am saying to say otherwise.
I am also not saying that some of the posters on Facebook or wherever are not simply being rude jerks. I am simply trying to give some thoughts.
Having been in the situation that I learned that someone I had known for years, someone I would have called a mentor and good friend, was molesting young boys (and had a history of molesting prior to this) I think some discussion amongst people is frequently them trying to balance in their head the person they thought they knew versus the person they are now being told they knew. It is hard to learn that your truths are not what you thought they were. We all believed the information we were given about this man by the authorities, but our conversations still contained lots of what could be twisted into all kinds of bad things if someone wanted to while we discussed our experiences with the man who all then knew was evil, but had never looked evil to us. (For example - when we would say ‘but he was always so nice’ does not mean we did not believe he truly was evil.)
(My experience was well before internet, forums and Facebook.)
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IMO, less narcissism and more the fact that the majority of major players in this industry have never held a real-world jobby-job. And a great many of those came to the industry fresh out of high school in the 60s, 70s & 80s.
No experience with work-place policy, professional boundaries, codes of conduct, or employee training that covers the myriad of principles & caveats one encounters while climbing the traditional ladder of success.
Add in very little higher education and minimal exposure to the news (excusable when working sun-up to sun-down at the 6-ring circus). Just this week I learned there are trainers out there that don’t know a covid vaccine is available…
If these characters have evolved at all since stepping into the industry at the age of 18, it has been to appease the whims of an antiquated trade that was already shrouded in shady, fully unregulated, willfully ignorant of modern work-place policy, and largely impervious to advances in labor laws.
Please, if any of you have young riders juggling that school/work or Go Pro! question, tell them school/work FIRST then come back & make a living in this bubble if you still want to. The industry is positively desperate for an injection of real-world professionalism. On all fronts.
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Ding, ding, ding.
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We say “big girl job” as we desperately try to convince my god daughter that horses ain’t the job for her
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Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful response. My experience was also before FB and social media though Safesport brought things from the past up to the present. I do want to clarify that the trainer I am referring to in my case was still active more recently as well. I had always thought that I was merely one in a string of “acceptably underage girlfriends”. That’s how I processed it and put it away in the past. I didn’t know that he was really a predator. He groomed my parents and then me when starting when I was 16. The really awful thing which I did not know then is that, at the very same time, he was abusing the younger girls at his own barn. Finding that out more recently sent me into a tailspin because I felt responsible for giving him his cover story. “Oh, he likes them young”, but not too young(wink, wink). As an adult now, I was looking back then and thinking that I should have done something, I should have known. I felt viscerally sickened at what he had done to girls as young as 12. I got past that and, while I remain horrified by what he did, I realize that the only person responsible for his actions is him.
When Safesport came to the equestrian world, I remember wondering how long it would be before his name came up. Would I get a phone call? The surprise to me was that when his name did come up, people whom I had long considered friends reached out to me, not to support me but to tell me not to cooperate with Safesport. “He’s changed, he’s not like that any more, he’s such a great guy.” In a horrible ironic twist, the daughter of one of those friends turned out to be a more recent victim.
I agree that the difference back then, is that these conversations where people try to figure things out were private, in person and not recorded. Now they are all over social media, seen by countless more people, including the victims. I also think that for some reason, people are more comfortable saying things on social media than they would ever say in person. The ugliness on FB on this topic is outrageous and couldn’t be more public. Here on COTH, people are mostly respectful. We have the protection of anonymity if we choose and there are moderators to keep things from getting out of hand. I am thankful for that.
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I am glad you have let yourself see that you were in no way responsible.
I can tell you that we (my group of friends) had that feeling too. The ‘we should have known’ was very strong. This horrible person had some contact with younger kids because their association with us.
I agree.
I think we (general) frequently forget that social media is not a conversation between us and our friends, it is a conversation between us and our friends and everyone else that can see it.
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We say ‘real’ job. As in, I’ve been thinking about getting a real job.
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This times ten. I have been a teacher for over 25 yeas in high school and college and so many young folks have come to me asking how to become an equine professional. My first response has always been go to college and get a degree, get a good job, and do horses on the side. Learn how to function in the real world and then decide if you want to go into horses. The equestrian industry never learned to function like a true profession - there are no standards and no one is held accountable for their actions.
The number of trainers who learned to show and just continued to do that when they aged out of the junior ring has led to the detriment of the industry. How many trainers out there have a business degree? How many have taken courses in personnel management? How many have taken courses in business law? How many have taken courses in accounting? All essential to running a business and not just showing horses.
Go to school and study before you try to open a business. It’s so much more than just riding and showing.
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Definitely not saying most narcissists are abusers but I probably would say that most abusers are probably narcissists.
What she said.
As someone who grew up catholic, in the greater philly area, and has since left the church all together I actually would. But that’s another discussion for another day.
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Moneypitt, no, not their usual summer, but that was more a Covid decision, I believe. I’m not in their barn, but that would be my best guess as everything on the West Coast was shutting down/getting canceled. Once Desert Horse Park was back, they were there.
