Rider position

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I was watching 7 Clinics with Buck Brannaman the other day. On Disc 3, he discusses rider position. He says the contact between the rider’s leg and the saddle should be behind the inseam of the rider’s pants. Lower leg should be on, knee not gripping, toes turned slightly outward.

Really? Contact should be behind the inseam?

Here’s how I was always taught: the flat of the rider’s thigh, forward of the inseam, contacts the saddle. Knee is off, calf is on.

I understand Buck’s major point is the rider should never grip with the knee (and I agree), but I don’t understand the thigh position he advocates. Seems to me doing it his way would roll the thigh into the wrong position.

ETA: I learned how to ride huntseat and have only recently begun riding western. But Buck has dressage riders and huntseat riders in his clinics, so I don’t guess this is discipline specific? Or is there something I’m not getting about western saddles? (Like how I didn’t get that you need to hold the horn when you dismount so you don’t accidentally hang yourself. :lol:)

Thoughts, please?

[Beverley]

As I sit here in my office chair visualizing…

Yes, what you learned is right for English (Lendon Gray used to share a really good tip on physically moving your muscles with your hands to get an even more secure placement). But for western, yeah, behind the inseam. It correlates a bit to difference in pelvic positioning as well. At the risk of oversimplifying, when western, you are riding such that your jeans back pockets are making contact with the cantle.

[NoSuchPerson]

I think, like so many things involving horses, the answer is “it depends.” For example, look up “position of exhibitor” in the AQHA western horsemanship rules and you will find the classic ear-shoulder-hip-heel/ankle line recommended. Also:

The rider’s base of support should maintain secure contact with the saddle from the seat to the inner thigh. Light contact should be maintained with the saddle and horse from the knee to mid-calf. The knee should point forward and remain closed with no space between the exhibitor’s knee and the saddle…The rider’s toes should be pointing straight ahead or slightly turned out with the ankles straight or slightly broken in.

The “ideal” position is going to change somewhat depending on what you are doing, just like it does when riding English. And just like English, Western riding encompasses a variety of sub-disciplines with their own demands.

[Lusoluv]

As a former Western rider who showed horses in Stock Seat competition and also reiners, proper position is very similar to the correct dressage seat - which has been my discipline for the last dozen years. Ear, shoulder, hip heal alignment with the entire flat inner thigh & calf draped over the horse. Toes straight ahead or slightly pointed IN. Sitting on 3 seat bones (pubic bone and 2 hip bones). Sitting up erect, not on your pockets as that would indicate rounded small of the back.

Does that mean all reiners ride/sit/train correctly?? Nope. Does that mean ALL dressage riders are correct. NO. I really like Buck, but like all trainers, use what helps and what works/makes sense for you. Everything Buck says is not gospel, but I like to think the intent behind it is

[BeaSting]

I’ve been taught that no matter the saddle, sit in such a position that if the horse under you were to suddenly disappear, you’ll land on your feet rather your butt.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7969481]
I was watching 7 Clinics with Buck Brannaman the other day. On Disc 3, he discusses rider position. He says the contact between the rider’s leg and the saddle should be behind the inseam of the rider’s pants. Lower leg should be on, knee not gripping, toes turned slightly outward.

Really? Contact should be behind the inseam?

Here’s how I was always taught: the flat of the rider’s thigh, forward of the inseam, contacts the saddle. Knee is off, calf is on.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if this depends on how you’re built…I am sitting in my chair wondering how I could get contact in front of my inseam. Maybe I’m bowlegged? Maybe my thighs are too fat? LOL.

[Lusoluv]

I second BeaSting’s post!!

[potteryshop]

I would like to suggest that jean seams are placed differently with different brands. I prefer to ride in Wrangler Q-baby and have found that the seam is more toward the front. I have no seam pinch with these jeans.

[Riverotter]

[QUOTE=S1969;7970338]
.I am sitting in my chair wondering how I could get contact in front of my inseam. [/QUOTE]

@pAin't_Misbehavin';7969481

Or is there something I’m not getting about western saddles?

Guys, there’s a trick to it and it IS about how western saddles are built and not how we are (although the poster who mentioned sitting on your pubic bone in the show ring - ouch, and double ouch for guys)

Here is how I teach people to sit a western saddle, step by step;
Stand up in the stirrups and tuck your bottom under you. Tip your pelvis a tiny bit, kind of clench a little and sit back on your natural cushioning.

Take your foot out of the stirrup, bring your leg up to the cantle and then let your leg slide down to a natural position.
Repeat for the other leg.
*there is a kind of groove in a western saddle, you will not see it but when you do this your leg will naturally find it and the long muscle on the inside of your thigh will lie along it. This is different from the English position and quite frankly not what will get you a ribbon in a Western Pleasure show but is nevertheless correct for the saddle.

Then, moving your leg only from the knee down, reach back, pick up your stirrup and drop your heel.
You will quite likely find that you will want to let your stirrups down a notch when you are in this, correct, position.
You will instantly feel far more secure in the saddle and kind of “locked in”. You will also feel like you are leaning back at an angle and may be tempted to hollow out your back to correct for this.
You are fine.
You DO want to keep a straight line from shoulder, hip to heel but unlike in English or pleasure shows, you do NOT want that line to be perfectly perpendicular to the horse. You do want to angle back at the slightest angle and I promise you it is not as extreme as it feels at first (likely, no one looking at you will notice, really)

Also, ONLY in this position can you properly do a western post to the trot, which you do by pushing your heels down with the trot and not raising your seat out of the saddle. The action of your heels will feel as if you are pushing yourself back into the cantle a bit, and you are, as a secondary action. Just like learning to post English, it feels strange and awkward at first, and then once you get the hang of it it’s far easier on you and your horse and becomes so natural you have to think about it to not just automatically do it.

[Pocket_Pony]

Here are my thoughts on the matter. First of all, men’s bodies are different than women’s bodies - the shape and tilt of their pelvises and femur attachments are hugely different, so for a male rider to say “just do this” doesn’t give credit to conformational differences.

Secondly, women’s bodies and bone conformation vary hugely. I get that there’s an “ideal” position, but one should not have to contort one’s body to feel comfortable on a horse and to ride without pain. As a yoga teacher, I recognize that every student has different abilities. While I may be able to sit on the ground with my hips totally open in easy pose, another person may have great difficulty with that. Sure, it could be due to muscle tightness, but it could just as easily have to do with how one’s bones are put together. I have trouble getting my heels down - I always have, I always will. It isn’t my muscles, it isn’t my tendons or ligaments, it is my bones and there’s just so much room in that joint for them to move. It is what it is, as they say.

Having said that, I believe it is important to ride in a saddle that fits you and allows you to sit in a comfortable position with ease. I think a “neutral” spinal position is what is best for the body. If you are creating an arch in your back (think of a stiff looking new-to-riding h/j student who may get the instruction to stick out her boobs and her butt) then you are creating compression in your lower back and add that compression to the impact that riding produces (maybe not on a flat-moving QH, but if you’ve got a bouncy WB you’re going to have a different ride) and sooner or later it is going to catch up to you. Same with “sitting on your pockets” - if that causes you to over-flatten your lower back then you’re going to round in your middle back and you’re going to have problems. I think that the instruction to sit on your pockets is over-simplifying the point of getting into a centered position. We shouldn’t have to contort our bodies to ride.

Saddle fit has a LOT to do with it. In my dressage saddle, for example, when I found the right saddle, I think I actually exclaimed that it was easy to find the right position. It was easy. The saddle was correctly balanced for me that my legs hung in the right spot, my hips and spine were easily supported, and I didn’t have to fight for my position. That’s what you want in any discipline, IMHO.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;7971055]
Guys, there’s a trick to it and it IS about how western saddles are built and not how we are. [/QUOTE]

Well, maybe; I think I agree more with PocketPony that everyone is built differently so there’s no one correct answer. But we probably should not be measuring our contact points by the inseam of our jeans…

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;7971055]
Take your foot out of the stirrup, bring your leg up to the cantle and then let your leg slide down to a natural position.[/QUOTE]

Well there’s my problem, then. There is no way in hell I can get my leg anywhere near the cantle if my butt is in the saddle. :lol:

[Riverotter]

[QUOTE=S1969;7971291]
Well, maybe; I think I agree more with PocketPony that everyone is built differently so there’s no one correct answer. But we probably should not be measuring our contact points by the inseam of our jeans… :)[/QUOTE]

I have honestly shown more people than I can count - male and female, young and old, thick and thin - how to sit a western saddle with those exact steps and every one of them has felt more comfortable and secure in the saddle.
I never mentioned the inseam of the jeans.
But go ahead, give it a try and come back and tell me if you felt better positioned.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;7972337]
I have honestly shown more people than I can count - male and female, young and old, thick and thin - how to sit a western saddle with those exact steps and every one of them has felt more comfortable and secure in the saddle.
I never mentioned the inseam of the jeans.
But go ahead, give it a try and come back and tell me if you felt better positioned.[/QUOTE]

I’m not arguing that your method of having people sit isn’t useful; I’m still stuck on whether I could get my leg on my horse in front of my inseam as described by the OP. I think my jeans must be cut differently than hers.

[Riverotter]

LOL, I never even thought about my inseam but I know with jeans a high waistline feels as bad as a corset when riding!

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7969912]
As I sit here in my office chair visualizing…

Yes, what you learned is right for English (Lendon Gray used to share a really good tip on physically moving your muscles with your hands to get an even more secure placement). But for western, yeah, behind the inseam. It correlates a bit to difference in pelvic positioning as well. At the risk of oversimplifying, when western, you are riding such that your jeans back pockets are making contact with the cantle.[/QUOTE]

Lendon Gray might be who my instructor got the technique from.

@S1969;7970338

I wonder if this depends on how you’re built…I am sitting in my chair wondering how I could get contact in front of my inseam. Maybe I’m bowlegged? Maybe my thighs are too fat? LOL.

LOL, I’m sure that’s not it. I’ll try to describe the technique my instructor showed me:
stand in stirrups. Rotate your knees inward so that the flat insides of your thighs are parallel to the saddle. You’ll be kind of knock-kneed at this point.
Take your hands and move the flesh on the backs of your thighs towards the tail of the horse so as to get as much of it out from between your thigh bone and the horse as possible.
Sit straight down. Allow your toes to turn slightly outward so your calves are in contact with the horse but your knees are not.
In this position my thigh contacts my saddle in front of my inseam.
This makes me feel really secure in an english saddle, even in my flat jumping saddle.
Sadly, in my western saddle it makes my feet go instantly numb.:lol:

So I tried the Beverly/Buck method yesterday. Yes, contact behind the inseam. :yes: No numb feet, yay.
I’m still learning about pelvic positioning - I often get more energy than I meant to ask for because I tend to unconsciously rotate my pelvis forward into what Buck would call “position 1” instead of keeping it at a more neutral upright “position 2.” The tip about back pockets in light contact with the cantle helped me not to do this, so thanks Beverly.

Riverotter - I’m having a hard time visualizing your technique. Can you explain more about how you bring your leg up to the cantle, please?

BeaSting et al, yes, I agree. I was asking more about the position of the pelvis and thigh rather than the alignment of ear/shoulder/hip/heel. Very important to avoid a chair seat. :yes: Not just because it It looks awful, but - although I never thought about it before - my rider position DVD also says in a chair seat position you can’t get precision work out of the horse.

[Riverotter]

@pAin't_Misbehavin';7972953

Riverotter - I’m having a hard time visualizing your technique. Can you explain more about how you bring your leg up to the cantle, please?

It’s not an extreme position. Just, after you have sat back down in the saddle, lift your knee a bit without dragging your thigh along the saddle as you go. It’s only about a half an inch out and 4-5 inches up with the knee.

Then, just let your leg relax naturally into place.
This brings the long muscle on the inside of your thigh into contact and your leg will get “caught” by the saddle when it’s in the right position. You’ll feel it, I promise. Then just keep it there - moving your leg only from the knee down, bring your foot back, pick up your stirrup and press down into your heel.

About pelvis position, your pelvis is tipped back ever so slightly. At first it feels very extreme, but it really isn’t. I’ve actually taken pictures of people who have insisted that they are “practically lying down on the horse” and then handed it to them and to their utter shock, they look straight - every time. You do maintain the straight line of shoulder/hip/heel but it is not perfectly perpendicular to the horse.

Again, this is not how you do it for the show ring. But it is still the right way to sit a western saddle. Coming from an english background I was always very sore and a bit uncomfortable when I rode western. Then someone who rode like a centaur showed me this when I had first gotten a job that kept me in a western saddle 4-6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Instantly much more comfortable and secure and I could stick that saddle like I was superglued to it.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Riverotter;7973069]
It’s not an extreme position. Just, after you have sat back down in the saddle, lift your knee a bit without dragging your thigh along the saddle as you go. It’s only about a half an inch out and 4-5 inches up with the knee.[/QUOTE]

Is it possible you mean to say pommel (or fork or swell) instead of cantle? Because lifting your knee isn’t going to get your leg anywhere near the cantle.

Unless I’m just suffering from severe visualization failure.

[BEARCAT]

I am thinking pommel also (and have used that technique before.)

[Flash44]

In theory LOL! Most of the time we end up on our butts.