rider's position and effect of the aids--what does this score really mean?

[Kathy_Johnson]

There are several threads currently going on about things that are not “judged” in the show ring, and therefore might not be important, posting diagonals being one, and the lap around the showring before the bell rings. Turnout is another question that always comes up.

In my experience, when riders dawdle without a plan before entering, not only have they created a poor first impression, but the horse is rarely on the aids, and the first three or four scores are low because it takes too long to get things together. Riders who are correctly warmed up and working before entering tend to nail the halt and get higher scores earlier in the ride. Riders who have big issues before entering sometimes have enough of an adrenaline high that they do amazing things.

Although diagonals are not judged, riders who trot around blissfully unaware are rarely aware of where the rest of their horses’ bodies are (this is not always true–I have had two or three exceptional dyslexic riders who had great feel in all other aspects, but had a visual perceptual delay when it came to the diagonals).

Rider position and effect of the aids is one of the most subjective scores. Riders who look like they know what they’re doing are going to score higher.

Imagine the following scenario, and let’s even pretend these are two friends sharing the same horse.

So let’s say rider 1 stands around just outside A, talking with her friends, then trots in the second the bell rings. Her horse is not braided, is muddy, and she never even thinks about her diagonals, staying on the same one the whole ride.

Rider 2 is impeccably turned out and braided. She is ready to start the outside track when the horse in front of her finishes his salute. She shows her horse the judge’s stand, schools some transitions, gets her horse well in front of the leg and enters on the aids. She is neat and precise with her diagonals.

Who is going to get the higher rider score?

[merrygoround]

Are we discussing a hunter ring here, or a dressage arena. I only see the first scenario at the local hunter shows.

Uh-Oh! Here comes the hunter forum! Hide! :lol: :lol:

[CLB15]

Imagine the following scenario, and let’s even pretend these are two friends sharing the same horse.

So let’s say rider 1 stands around just outside A, talking with her friends, then trots in the second the bell rings. Her horse is not braided, is muddy, and she never even thinks about her diagonals, staying on the same one the whole ride.

Rider 2 is impeccably turned out and braided. She is ready to start the outside track when the horse in front of her finishes his salute. She shows her horse the judge’s stand, schools some transitions, gets her horse well in front of the leg and enters on the aids. She is neat and precise with her diagonals.

Who is going to get the higher rider score?

Whichever one actually rides well? There’s not enough info on “looks” and what they do in the warmup to predict what the rider scores would be. Maybe Rider 1 looks like a mess but can ride effectively and had already reached “that point” with her horse and didn’t want to push any more warm-up before the test and Rider 2 may look the part & work up to the last minute, but can’t ride/sit her horse’s gaits. Or maybe Rider 1 has a horse that has nice conformation & movement, but the rider sits there with her heals pulled up and her shoulders hunched over, while Rider 2 has an average moving horse but can nail the movements and positively influence the horse because she moves well.

[jcotton]

Accuracy of the test is always beneficial. As well as knowing the test as thoroughly as one can–dyslexic or not.

While turnout is not judged, it gives a much better impression to the judge that you have some pride in what you are doing. The judge did get dressed for their job, you should be dressed for yours that being showing, volunteering or whatever.

Diagonals, thats another can of worms. One trainer says rising on the outside shoulder moving forward is correct and another trainer says rising on the inside shoulder moving forward is correct. Both are valid so who is right as long as you are not causing interference with the horses movement depending which you use. Personally I rise on the outside shoulder moving forward except when doing leg-yield, on a young horse, I then go to the wrong diagonal and change back to the correct diagonal when I reach the wall.

The time before you enter is not judged, most judges do not take notice since they are completing their collectives from the previous test. That is when the scribe can check the number on the next rider and get the corrrect test out to be ready for the next rider.

[Dressage_Art]

In some restaurants they can refuse a service if somebody shows up looking filthy like a homeless bum. In dressage, judges will not turn down a competitor who is looking filthy like a homeless bum. Judges can not take any points for a dirty, untidy horse and rider either.

The one aspect that easily missed by some people is the huge amount of riders that come-and-go before a judge in one show. Sometimes, several riders look almost the same with same mistakes and positives as well. If one of them stands out for a negative reason, then judges possibly will look at them with more scrutiny - the result of that scrutiny would depend on individual judge.

Clean horse and rider with braided horse historically is a sign of respect for judges and show management. Rider took her/his time to be presentable at that show. Some judges might find it “rude” for a rider/horse to be filthy at a show. To be clean just takes some time, soap and water.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson;3273511]
Rider position and effect of the aids is one of the most subjective scores.[/QUOTE]
All four collective marks are quite subjective, yet they can change the final score % dramatically. If I remember correctly, on Training Level collective marks make up 1/3 of the final score %. (may be somebody can double check that)

Yet, there is a fine line between 6 and 7 for the gaits.
Yet, if horse lacks elasticity of the steps b/c of the God given gaits - they can score 5 or lower for impulsion. And what degree of “elasticity of the steps” that judge would like to see??? Quite subjective.
Yet, if a horse doesn’t show the “ease of movements” - judge can score 5 or lower for the submission score. But again, what degree of “ease of movements” is satisfactory for this judge?
Yet, “correctness of the aids” varies from trainer to trainer just like from judge to judge - one wants to see high set necks in a shorter frame, yet another can’t stand BTV and wants longer frames - those judges will not agree on “correctness of the aids”…

There is way too much jammed in to collective scores. Its way to easy to justify lower/higher scores. There are some KEY movements that will affect collective scores: like transitions is a reflection of a rider score, change of direction is a reflection of an obedience score, medium trot is a reflection of impulsion. But all four collective scores are quite subjective and they are mostly bases on the GENERAL impressions of a judge about the test as a WHOLE. Quite subjective.

[BaroquePony]

At least rider 2 has the horse on the aids and in front of the leg.

I was always under the illusion that that was what dressage “tests” were supposed to be about.

[pintopiaffe]

What drew me to dressage was it’s NOT supposed to be about how you or your horse “look” to a big extent.

And yet, I’m the first to say that first impressions are huge. I’ve only judged at baby schooling shows, Intro and TL–as it should be, I am not a “Judge”. I’ve scribed though at many shows, right up through the levels. SOMETIMES it’s surprizing that the pair that mightn’t look at first glance to be ‘put together’ as well, score very well.

OTOH, if the scores are very close, i.e. between a 6 and a 7, I do think that blindingly clean and as impeccably presented as possible is going to subconsciously put the emphasis on the higher score.

Attitude counts too. I’ve seen the very sharp dressed, professionally braided ‘professional’ come in and be super-tense about a misbehaving horse… then someone with a not-so-perfectly fit jacket, home-done braids come in and have the horse shying at the same issue (a judges tent, in this case) but smile and ride through it as if it were nothing… I dont’ HONESTLY remember if it affected the numbers, but I know that rider B got comments that I’d be thrilled with about tact, kindness and “well ridden.” I would hope and suspect that was reflected in the collective.

It goes both ways. I COMPLETELY agree in as much spit and polish as humanly possible. Elbow grease costs nothing. I am heartbroken if it comes down to a perfectly tailored jacket or the ‘in’ kind of helment…

[Margaret]

what about the “elegance” factor? when I was auditing the L program a very few years ago, “elegance” was one of the characteristics which made the step from a 6 rider score to a 7 or possibly an 8…

???

[jumperx23]

hahahaha obviously we’re talking about dressagge. hahahahaha that just mafde my day.

[WindsongEq]

The riders score is on position and seat and correctness and effect of the aids.
After the final salute, the judge is looking down writing comments under furthur remarks and collectives to the last competitor. If Susie A is visiting with friends in the warmup before going around the outside of the arena, until the judge looks up, ready to ring the bell, they would not know! They are not being judged until they enter at “A”.
If the horse is muddy, whip held in the saluting hand while saluting, wrong posting diagonal, the judge will mention items like this, but it does not effect the score. (I personally have not seen a horse presented muddy in a dressage test, while judging, scribing, nor seen one in warmup at a recognized dressage show)

[pintopiaffe]

well, no, the judge mayn’t see the ride-around-the arena, but I think the point was the horse really being ON the aids and ready to enter, vs. the one that takes the first few movements to get their stuff together…

[J_Lav]

Well on our side of the pond it’s resonably simple really.

The rider mark is linked to the submission mark and as a general rule can be no more than one mark higher (2 at a push).

This is on the principle that if the submission has not been good then the riders aids have not been effective no matter how beautifully they may sit or how tactful they may have been on a tense or tricky horse.

Sometimes you see a horse showing surprisingly good submission despite the riders shortcommings in balance/postion etc and then the rider mark may be lower.

This has been the way it has been put to us in our judge training sessions with both National and FEI level master judges.

[slc2]

I think the wording of the general remark was misquoted. I think it actually is the ‘effectiveness’ of the aids. Are the aids effective. That is somewhat different.

The one hanging out and talking to friends will be more relaxed and ride better. LOL.

No, I don’t think this sort of scenario gives our judges any credit for judging correctly or even for having decent ethics or a conscience. I feel it’s a loaded question, like ‘do you still beat your wife’.

i never went in the ring with a dirty horse or dirty tack, but not because I thought it would, did or should influence the judge, that for me was just how i was taught. And I worked at enough shows (in the stabling) to know that plenty of people were going in there with filthy bridles and getting good scores.

It IS true that someone with a crappy warmup isn’t going to score well. That’s because the test is going to go just about how the warmup went, unless they have a special horse that benefits from a very different kind of warmup. Most horses benefit from a structured pretty standard warmup, and if the warmup is sloppy the test will be too. The judge knows it, but she WON’T make up her mind by how you come in the ring. That isn’t ethical. But she also won’t have to. The test will tell the story, score by score.

But ‘blissfully unaware of diagonal’ is not really a realistic thing. A judge wouldn’t have any way of determining the rider’s internal motivation or mental state, and it would be ridiculous to suggest any legit judge actually attempts to do so or judges accordingly.

But on the other hand, if the rider is ‘blissfully unaware’ of that he most likely is unaware of alot. But again, the judge is going to go thru the test, score by score. There is no place in dressage judging for ‘pre-scoring’ or ‘tallying’. And while judges are often accused of it, it isn’t ethical, and I don’t think it’s as widespread as judges are accused of.

[Kathy_Johnson]

I’ve scribed enough to let you know that except maybe when the judge is writing the final comment (which takes about 30 seconds), they are well aware of what the rider is doing, sometimes as far away as the warm up ring. As a USEF show manager and scribe I have had judges waiting in the judge’s box have the scribe contact the TD to investigate abuse, illegal equipment and lameness in the warm up ring.

In the 45 seconds after the bell has rung and before you might enter, the judge has finished writing comments and has nothing else to do but to focus on the next horse and rider. They notice when you pass by the judge’s stand. They always say hello. I have seen a judge ring the horse out for lameness about two steps into the arena. I guarantee the judge saw the horse limping outside the arena and didn’t want to prolong the pain.

I have had judges watch the schooling outside the ring and actually ask, “are you ready?” before ringing the bell. I have had them wait to ring the bell when I say, “almost” if the show is running ahead. I have seen judges (again, all at rated shows) step out of the judge’s box to help a kid on a nappy horse past the judge’s stand. I have seen the judges talk to spooky horses and sometimes even pet them so they don’t spook at the judge and scribe.

So, I’m not going to buy that the judge isn’t looking at what is going on out there. The more experienced the judge, the more they notice. I don’t think that’s unethical or poor judging at all and actually shows more ethics, conscious, and awareness than we may be giving the judges credit for.

I don’t really give a rats patootie what diagonal the rider is on, but I guarantee the judges know if the rider is making an effort to influence the horse, or merely bouncing about. This is the effectiveness of the aids. If the rider does not know where the horse’s legs are, the rider can not influence the horse very well, and the effectiveness of the aids is very weak. I think people need to wake up about how much the judges are watching before and during and even after a test. Whether or not you think it won’t hurt the judge’s impression of the rider, just know the judge is probably watching and show the respect to present the horse well, even before you enter the ring.

[SillyHorse]

@Kathy Johnson;3273511

Her horse is not braided, is muddy, and she never even thinks about her diagonals, staying on the same one the whole ride.

Honestly, has anyone ever actually seen a muddy horse at a show? I’ve been around a long time, and and have never, ever seen that. You might see legs and bellies that are splashed because the weather has caused the warmup arena to become wet and muddy, but I can’t remember ever seeing a horse that was muddy because the rider hadn’t bothered to groom it.

You do know that braiding is not required, right? We all do it at recognized shows, but the rules state that it’s “permitted.”

I would hope that neither of these issues would be reflected in the score, but as the saying goes, you don’t get a second chance to make a first impression.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson;3274111]
So, I’m not going to buy that the judge isn’t looking at what is going on out there. The more experienced the judge, the more they notice.[/QUOTE]

Experienced judges are so sharp, fast and notice so many things at the same time — it still amazes me.