riders weight & horse ratio??

msg, we’ve chatted on this before but to share with the others…

my personal horse policy has always been to have 1-riding horse while owning projects. It gets tiresome always working with greenies, or young horses incapable yet of keeping up.

I also never want to push a horse ahead of their abilities as much as I dont like being left out of things I enjoy doing –

The downfall to this is that thers always been a stock of horses in my barn! this could be good, or bad depending :slight_smile:
for me… its heaven! :wink:

Ok, personally I would not let him ride your mare.

My husband events a large boned 16.2hh TB. He is 6’ and weighed 182 lbs when he bought the horse. However, he felt that to be fair to the horse, he should lose weight, which he did. He now weighs 168 lbs and you can definitely see that the horse appreciates it.
I would not be ok with a 250lb person riding my 15h fine boned arab… Husband or not, it’s not fair to expect the mare to do that.
Just my two cents and I appreciate that it might not go down well with some people, but it is just my opinion.

I do not own an Arabian, but I do board at an Arabian breeding facility that is full of little Egyptian bred Arabians. At first glance, they look delicate with their little dish faces, slender legs, flagging tail and narrow type chests (well, compared to a QH!). But I have come to find out standing next to them that they have broad flat backs, plenty of bottom and get up and go and are actually bigger than they look.

The barn manager tells me that Arabians can carry more weight than other horses of the same size and for longer periods of time. They are some tough little buggers. BM’ little Arabian is around 14.3 to 15 hh and yes, I think Legato could easily carry a 250 lb man and run like the wind doing it. BM isn’t a tiny lady by any means and is training Legato for endurance.

Darolyn Butler is near us and we attended a barefoot trimming clinic with her at our barn. She is a world class endurance rider and told us about a gelding that was not large by any means and that had had feet issues. A heavy weight rider started riding him and doing a great job at the endurance races they entered in and she said she had to take another look at that horse! She was amazed that he was doing so well carrying such a heavy rider!

I think that you will have to watch your hubby on the horse. I would never advocate hurting a horse for anything but I also know that Arabians are the toughest horses in the world. She may surprise you!

Honestly, I don’t think 250 pounds of balanced rider is too much for a horse that size for an average ride. My partner weighs about 225 pounds and used to ride a 13.3 hand fine-boned Arab on a regular basis before he bought his mare, and the little guy had no problem carrying him for a couple of hours. His current riding horse is a 15 hand Arab, but she has pretty good bone so I’m not sure that’s a good comparison. I’m pretty involved with the Arabian breed and I’ve seen lots of large male trainers riding dinky little Arabs at shows and such, and the horses are fine. In fact, a compact Arab will often carry weight better than a big Thoroughbred or Warmblood with a longer back. Like Painted Horse, I might stay out of significant mountains (although we often rode in the foothills of the Rockies on the little gelding) and avoid the all day trail rides, but otherwise it’s not that big of a deal for most horses. Of course, it must be taken on a case by case basis.

However, you say your husband isn’t a balanced rider, and you’re obviously uncomfortable with the idea of him riding your mare. I think you should go with your gut on this. I hope his horse winds up being sound or you guys can find a suitable replacement. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5686972]
We begin with a question: where does the 20% rule come from? Why 20%, as opposed to 15% or 25%?

This rule was certainly not used by the various cavalries during WWI (and probably before and after that event).

The standard load of the British Cavalry during WWI weighed 280 lbs. (including the rider). This load did not include a steel helmet or winter clothing.

The standard load of the U.S. Cavalry was about 250 lbs., including the rider. Again, the steel helmet and winter coat was not included.

Loads of Continental cavalries were also quite large. The following description of an Austrian Army Cavalry patrol is found in a 1917 issue of the U.S. Cavalry Journal:

On another occasion in East Galacia, an officer’s patrol of one officer and twenty men covered 342 miles in six days. The average load per horse was 300 lbs., and there were no sore backs. The mounts were of the stocky type, weighing about 1000 lbs., well bred, and from 15 to 15.2 hands in height.

Here are more interesting exerpts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XuA4g2RCZS0C&pg=PA306&dq=army+rule+maximum+horse+load&hl=en&ei=Ty0FTuqFJqT20gHyu4jnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=horse%20load&f=false

If you click on any page number it will take you to the whole book. There is a very interesting discussion on the “ideal” cavalry horse.

There is no question that loading up a horse increases its work load and increases the risk of injury to both horse and rider. Yet it’s equally clear that focusing on poundage, to the exclusion of all other factors (quality of the horse; quality of the equitation; quality of the husbandry; quality of strength and fitness of the horse; etc.) does no favors for either horse or rider. Indeed a narrow focus on weight ratios, alone, is far more likely to cause injury to the horse and/or rider than prevent them.

Whether or not the 20% rule has any basis in fact is a question I’ve not been able to answer in spite of some diligent research. It is generally quoted as “gospel” everywhere but not supported by fact anywhere. There is a large body of evidence from earlier mounted campaigns that demonstrates that horses loaded well beyond the 20% standard have provided excellent field service.

Note that this is not an endorsement of loading up a horse like you’d load a mule (or a pickup truck). Rather it’s recognition of the limits of the 20% rule and a direct challenge to the almost religious adherence to it by some folks.

G.[/QUOTE]

Horses used in the army expendable too, might want to take that into consideration when considering cavalry guidelines, funny that the British expected the horses to carry 30 lbs more… I guess our horses were happy for the Revolution too.’)

[QUOTE=CosMonster;5694606]
Honestly, I don’t think 250 pounds of balanced rider is too much for a horse that size for an average ride. My partner weighs about 225 pounds and used to ride a 13.3 hand fine-boned Arab on a regular basis before he bought his mare, and the little guy had no problem carrying him for a couple of hours. His current riding horse is a 15 hand Arab, but she has pretty good bone so I’m not sure that’s a good comparison. I’m pretty involved with the Arabian breed and I’ve seen lots of large male trainers riding dinky little Arabs at shows and such, and the horses are fine. In fact, a compact Arab will often carry weight better than a big Thoroughbred or Warmblood with a longer back. Like Painted Horse, I might stay out of significant mountains (although we often rode in the foothills of the Rockies on the little gelding) and avoid the all day trail rides, but otherwise it’s not that big of a deal for most horses. Of course, it must be taken on a case by case basis.

However, you say your husband isn’t a balanced rider, and you’re obviously uncomfortable with the idea of him riding your mare. I think you should go with your gut on this. I hope his horse winds up being sound or you guys can find a suitable replacement. :)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for saying this! I just rescued a little 14.2 h Arab with good bone but looks to be lighter in the body even in his good years (I have his 3 year old pictures, he is 20 now). I was thinking that I could not keep him for riding because I am nearly 5’8" and at 180 am not a lightweight (I know I need to lose about 20 lbs). I was really looking forward to riding him because he was a western equitation horse, a good trail riding horse and has had some dressage training. Can’t wait till he gets out of his starvation mode and puts some more weight on, his topline frightens me to ride him so I guess I will have to work him on the lunge and over cavaletti to try and develop something there.:no:

[QUOTE=Calamber;5694696]
Horses used in the army expendable too, might want to take that into consideration when considering cavalry guidelines, funny that the British expected the horses to carry 30 lbs more… I guess our horses were happy for the Revolution too.’)[/QUOTE]

This is a half truth.

In discussing standards you also have to remember that you’re looking at several centuries of military equine use. In each era there were both similarities and differences from other eras.

The modern (post 1900) U.S. Army planned to retire (declare surplus and sell at auction) Cavalry horses at the age of 16. This was the peacetime standard. They were replaced with remounts that were 4-5 years old. Any regimental commander who had a “wastage” that did not meet this standard would be questioned about his procedures and practices.

I don’t know what the practices were in the Artillery or in the British services.

In wartime the horse was, in fact, expendable. You didn’t do such a thing lightly (nor did you do it with tanks, aircraft, ships, or troopers). Any trooper who failed to properly care for his mount could find himself, suddenly, in the Infantry (afoot, in hostile territory, and without most of his gear). But losses were going to be part of process and they had to be expected and planned for. This was not evidence of callousness or cruelty, only recognition that Gen. Sherman was right when he said, “War is Hell.”*

The weight bearing standard, however, is the question. I’m still trying to find the “root” of the 20% Rule and I’m striking out so far. I did locate a gent who has a copy of the U.S. manuals from 1922 which allegedly cite the 20% rule. He’s checking on it for me (but is also in the Texas State Guard on the Border and is a bit busy right now). So I’ll be patient. :slight_smile:

The reason for the higher British number is that the British tack was significantly heavier than American tack of the day. The 1917 Cavalry Journal article that published the British load put the tack weight at 43 lbs. The U.S. load was closer to 30 lbs. I think some of the British equipment was also heavier and they carried a few more things.

I guess we’re still at the stage where the fat lady hasn’t sung yet (pun intended). :lol:

G.

*The actual Sherman quote (from his 1879 speech to the graduates at West Point is “I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here. Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!”

[QUOTE=Calamber;5694700]
Thank you for saying this! I just rescued a little 14.2 h Arab with good bone but looks to be lighter in the body even in his good years (I have his 3 year old pictures, he is 20 now). I was thinking that I could not keep him for riding because I am nearly 5’8" and at 180 am not a lightweight (I know I need to lose about 20 lbs). I was really looking forward to riding him because he was a western equitation horse, a good trail riding horse and has had some dressage training. Can’t wait till he gets out of his starvation mode and puts some more weight on, his topline frightens me to ride him so I guess I will have to work him on the lunge and over cavaletti to try and develop something there.:no:[/QUOTE]

I see endurance riders who weigh more than that riding horses that size for 100 miles and being fit to continue at the end. You’ll be fine. :slight_smile: Because of his age and lack of topline you should take it slow and check him regularly for soreness, but I bet it will be okay. Good luck with his rehab and thanks for rescuing the old guy! :slight_smile:

I do think having a strong topline is important. Really, that’s true of any horse. I’m pretty light, but even so I spend a long time on the longe in side reins and ground driving to build up the back before I ride a young or out of work horse. I think fitness of both horse and rider is a lot more important than size when it comes to weight ratios. And I don’t think that just because you’re overweight you can’t be fit. I’ve seen plenty of lightweight riders cause sore backs due to poor equitation, and some amazing heavyset riders!

I think that especially in the English riding world we’re so used to big horses (and often small riders on them :lol:) that we lose a bit of perspective. When I first starting working with Arabs after growing up in the open hunter/jumper and dressage worlds, I felt like even the big ones were too small for me. Now, my ideal size is in the 14-15 hand range–a far cry from when I thought I needed a minimum of 16.2 hands! :lol: I’d probably like even smaller horses except I’m 5’9" and my legs are a little too long for them. :wink:

[QUOTE=Guilherme;5694928]
This is a half truth.

In discussing standards you also have to remember that you’re looking at several centuries of military equine use. In each era there were both similarities and differences from other eras.

The modern (post 1900) U.S. Army planned to retire (declare surplus and sell at auction) Cavalry horses at the age of 16. This was the peacetime standard. They were replaced with remounts that were 4-5 years old. Any regimental commander who had a “wastage” that did not meet this standard would be questioned about his procedures and practices.

I don’t know what the practices were in the Artillery or in the British services.

In wartime the horse was, in fact, expendable. You didn’t do such a thing lightly (nor did you do it with tanks, aircraft, ships, or troopers). Any trooper who failed to properly care for his mount could find himself, suddenly, in the Infantry (afoot, in hostile territory, and without most of his gear). But losses were going to be part of process and they had to be expected and planned for. This was not evidence of callousness or cruelty, only recognition that Gen. Sherman was right when he said, “War is Hell.”*

The weight bearing standard, however, is the question. I’m still trying to find the “root” of the 20% Rule and I’m striking out so far. I did locate a gent who has a copy of the U.S. manuals from 1922 which allegedly cite the 20% rule. He’s checking on it for me (but is also in the Texas State Guard on the Border and is a bit busy right now). So I’ll be patient. :slight_smile:

The reason for the higher British number is that the British tack was significantly heavier than American tack of the day. The 1917 Cavalry Journal article that published the British load put the tack weight at 43 lbs. The U.S. load was closer to 30 lbs. I think some of the British equipment was also heavier and they carried a few more things.

I guess we’re still at the stage where the fat lady hasn’t sung yet (pun intended). :lol:

G.

*The actual Sherman quote (from his 1879 speech to the graduates at West Point is “I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here. Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!”[/QUOTE]

I think rather than a half truth, I did not fully explain so here it is for those who look at such things. It is not adequate to compare warhorses and the policies which were made for the sake of efficiency and the hope of winning a war, which of course is hell (you think we might want to stop a few ourselves), with pleasure riding for peaceable purposes. Their guidelines were at the outer edge of pushing the envelope for the sake of meeting the hoped for end of the war. I would say that cavalry guidelines for weight bearing for the purpose to which we use the horse is not useful.

In other words ratio of weight of rider to horse is a fallacious construct. As some have said, many factors play into that equation, fitness of both horse and rider have a much more important role to play than a weight ratio. After all, in war, many were expected to die. I do not think much was taken into account as far as humane policies of practice for either the horse or the human. I am certainly not denigrating the great Generals Grant, Sheridan or Sherman, but they were fighting a killing war as Sherman expressed it in the quote you found (thank you for that).

Just by the by, the surest footed horse I ever rode on a downhill gallop was also the smallest, she just happened to be a Morgan.;).

[QUOTE=CosMonster;5695042]
I see endurance riders who weigh more than that riding horses that size for 100 miles and being fit to continue at the end. You’ll be fine. :slight_smile: Because of his age and lack of topline you should take it slow and check him regularly for soreness, but I bet it will be okay. Good luck with his rehab and thanks for rescuing the old guy! :slight_smile:

I do think having a strong topline is important. Really, that’s true of any horse. I’m pretty light, but even so I spend a long time on the longe in side reins and ground driving to build up the back before I ride a young or out of work horse. I think fitness of both horse and rider is a lot more important than size when it comes to weight ratios. And I don’t think that just because you’re overweight you can’t be fit. I’ve seen plenty of lightweight riders cause sore backs due to poor equitation, and some amazing heavyset riders!

I think that especially in the English riding world we’re so used to big horses (and often small riders on them :lol:) that we lose a bit of perspective. When I first starting working with Arabs after growing up in the open hunter/jumper and dressage worlds, I felt like even the big ones were too small for me. Now, my ideal size is in the 14-15 hand range–a far cry from when I thought I needed a minimum of 16.2 hands! :lol: I’d probably like even smaller horses except I’m 5’9" and my legs are a little too long for them. ;)[/QUOTE]

Someone told me he looked like a unicorn but he got so hungry he ate the horn! He is such a lovely little fellow. I am glad I came along when did, just in time in fact.