Riding canter with closed hip vs open hip angle

[Lunabear1988]

I’m riding in a clinic this weekend but I’m unable to take my own young horse since he’s in the middle of the rehab in his stifle and I think it would be a little much both physically and mentally. But I’m riding my sister in law’s 13 year old gelding. He’s honestly extremely difficult for me to ride but I’m hoping that I’ll get something out of the clinic and I actually think it could be very good for him too.

He’s a low level eventer that years ago was diagnosed with some back issues. They do a couple of different things to manage that and he has been cleared to ride/event from CSU with management. He also gets a bit stiff in his hocks although I’m not sure if they’re fusing or what. They manage him with hock injections and shockwave/injections for his back.

This is relevant as he is absolutely not a supple horse. He’s gotten loads better than he was year ago now that his issues are better managed. He’s always been a bit of an opinionated horse by nature and then I’m sure if there’s any discomfort that shows in his opinions. He’s pretty well mannered these days but he’s still kind of resents if you tell him to put his body anywhere different. Part of this though is the program that he is in. Even though they event it seems the dressage portion of any training is mostly just head down and along the rail. No real lateral work or even a proper circle with actual bend. So he goes how he is ridden.

I cannot for the life of me sit this horse’s canter. Her do not have this problem on most horses. I can drop my stirrups on most with ease. But he travels crooked which may be because he needs his hocks done again. But again he is ridden in a very different manner than how I ride a dressage horse. So I really do think it’s both habit and potential stiffness.

his owner has no problem with his canter and so she loves it and thinks it’s one of the best she’s ever ridden. I was feeling a bit down and out about my riding because I just cannot seem to get it together on him at the canter. I took a lesson on a schoolmaster and asked my trainer about it and she said I said the canter just lovely and there is no issues that she sees on the school master.

So I’m watching his owner ride and we are in a western saddle because we were trying different saddles to see if it helps my seat. And all saddles she rides with a very closed hip angle kind of like a hunter jumper light seat. Like contact with the horse but definitely not sitting like a dressage rider by any means. I politely pointed that out and asked her if she could sit with a more open hip angle because of course that’s how I’m trying to ride the horse. She was unable to do it. She said when she tried to sit that way it felt like she was going to get popped out of the saddle. But if she closed her hip angle she felt like she could stay with him.

Obviously the horse is probably in need of his yearly maintenance. But I just found it curious that the hip angle would make such a drastic change. Is that because in a more forward seat the rider is not having to absorb the motion as much? It’s just so curious to me because I know in my own riding, I usually find the very opposite. If I tighten my hip angle it doesn’t feel very good versus actually sitting. But I suppose there is a difference in the intention as well.

As far as the clinic we are going to take it nice and easy. It is a laid-back clinic and I have talked to the organizer and all is good. It is possible we don’t even touch the canter at the clinic as I’m only doing one ride. There’s plenty to do at the walk and trot which he seems to feel very good in right now.

*I understand that some people would think that a horse with this kind of maintenance needed or that is going so crookedly in the canter should not be ridden. All I can say is it is not my horse and I know that according to her the vets think staying in work in some ways actually better for him. It is only one 40-minute ride and while things are not ideal I really will take in account this horse’s limitations and will not push it and only look to get help with making him feel better in his body. This is a one time thing. I hope that a proper dressage lesson will only help him. Fingers crossed. The next time I hope to take my own young horse!

[Lunabear1988]

I’m also not the most supple person either because of some physical challenges!! I’m sure that doesn’t help.

But I just found it really interesting that his owner who claims she loves his canter and has no problem sitting at isn’t truly sitting at all.

[Scribbler]

My mare provides me with about a dozen different canters. If I could get them on demand she would be amazingly adjustable! As it stands, it’s somewhat the luck of the draw.

When she is feeling good, we can get varieties of collected canter from almost bouncing in place to quite long stride but uphill. I can sit these in a dressage saddle with pleasure. Her full out hand gallop or run is also easy to sit.

If she is not 100 per cent happy and warmed up, her canter can be harder to sit. At the worst she does a bounce at the back that feels like an incipient buck but is just being on the forehand. And her more foreward canter can feel rough. I think in these cases she is downhill. I also ride her in a jump saddle and can get out of the tack in this situation.

So my guess would be your borrowed horse is a bit on the forehand compared to a dressage horse and protecting his hind end. Maybe try shortening your stirrups. The clinician will doubtless have advice. If you have to ride a bit jump seat to survive in your dressage saddle do so. People often do this with green horses or in warmup.

Many h/j riders never really sit and have a big learning curve if they move to dressage.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes definitely on the forehand which doesn’t help. And to travels with his haunches quite to the inside and his owner tends to actually ride him kind of counterbent to the outside. And I’ve never seen him be any resemblance of round in the canter of course.

I will make sure he’s very warmed up before the clinic too. It will be an interesting clinic and I hope I get a little bit of insight!

[Abbie.S]

As someone who rides a lot of horses for a lots of different types of owners…

I do, more often than I’d probably like, run into horses whose canters I just. can’t. sit. I am by no means a perfect rider and am acutely aware of my own compensatory tendencies, but typically those horses I can’t sit are horses such as the one you are describing: a horse that is stiff moving, obviously crooked and - I am inferring this from your post - have a really hard time truly lifting their back in the canter. In these cases, I don’t WANT to sit that canter; it will do the horse no good to even attempt to canter him until I can address the crookedness and stiffness.

The lift in the back is what gives you that nice place to sit, even on the choppiest of movers. I doubt, from your description, that this horse is or knows how to lift through his back. And again, the common denominator with the majority of horses whose canters I struggle with is that they are just stiff in general, in all gaits, and when you add more forward energy, that stiffness gets multiplied.

If you cannot get soft, straight, round movement in the walk, you will not get it in the trot. If you cannot get it in the trot, it will not come out in the canter. Sounds like this horse is doing a lot of guarding and has for a long time and would benefit from a different program, but since you don’t own him, the best you can do is ride him as kindly as you can and learn what you can from him.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes yes yes to everything you said. Now that I think about it he does remind me of when I took some hunter jumper lessons on some school horses that were of course older and stiffer. But of course I was not really asked to sit the canter so all was well.

As far as I can tell the program that he has been in at least the trot, is about kind of just getting his head down and really getting him forward in the trot. Which honestly is a vast improvement from years ago when she first bought him.

Getting him to bend and even do a proper circle at the trot takes work. He definitely feels like he just never really gives himself to you. And I definitely feel like I’m just merely surviving at the canter. Apparently because I’m trying to do something that I probably can’t do, sit.

So I think if I’m reading what you were suggesting correctly it might actually be best to just work at walk and trot in the clinic. Honestly I do think so too. I think even opening the can of worms that is the canter is way too much for a one-day clinic. And I’m not sure I would particularly benefit from it as much as focusing on just the walk and trot.

I’m glad I posted here because I was seriously feeling crazy at first trying to ride this horse’s canter. While I have much to work as a rider, it’s nice to know that I’m probably trying to something that can’t be done in this short time. So we will try and focus on what we can improve in the clinic!

[stb]

I have a 21 year old gelding that is currently mostly retired. He generally only does the occasional walk-trot trail ride. He is a former goat roper, so has arthritic hocks (mostly fused at this point) and is about as bendy as your average ironing board. His canter has become horrendous. It pops me up and out of the saddle no matter how I try to ride it. It’s quite impressive. This is not the canter he had when he was younger. I assume his current gait is due to his hock issues.

As I said, he is very lightly ridden at this point anyway, so no more canter work for him.

[netg]

If you have your butt a bit out of the saddle, your ankles, knees and hips can more easily absorb motion. Being able to ride canter in a light seat or half seat/two point is a very valuable tool I’m pretty positive you have even if you haven’t used it lately. I would be open to riding that way - think of it as the canter version of posting a back which isn’t ready to sit. It could be a great way to work on a tool which may be useful with your youngster! My first year of work with JJ there was a lot of cantering out of the saddle. (With Ellie, a light and forward seat in any gait was too off balance for her until about a year in - every horse is different!)

[Lunabear1988]

Yes it’s like the back legs turn into pogo sticks, can’t bend much when the hocks start bothering them. That’s what it feels like too.

I may just see if we can do walk and trot in the clinic.

[Lunabear1988]

I have actually been taking some jumping lessons this year (even cantered my first ever course 2 weeks ago) so it’s definitely in my wheel house right now. And sometimes we do use a light seat with Lynx. Although I can sit him if I really want to (this horse makes Lynx look easy ha ha)

I just had in my head, 13 year old gelding, in a program, dressage clinic, I sit. But there is more going on than I thought. I’m glad I was noticing what the owner was doing. She actually didn’t realize that’s how she rode. She gets that pelvic tilt that so many people fight with. So I’m assuming that seat is the easiest for her and I doubt she is ever told to sit any different with the program she’s in.

Like Abby said, I do think with this horse given his age it depends on how the walk and trot go to see if we touch the canter. The lesson is only 40 minutes long- and honestly there’s probably enough to do for even getting into the canter. The canter would be such a project, I’m not sure if we should touch it in this clinic. Maybe if I had two rides!

[IPEsq]

H/J rider here who has tried to learn a dressage seat. One thing about the forward seat even when it is a 3 point is that there’s usually less pelvis movement from the rider because the thighs are not taking as much weight with shorter stirrups. What this can do is block a horse with the seat who dives down on the forehand. Which may be why it works for the owner.

If you have an open hip angle, you may need to still restrict your seat so that it doesn’t follow so much given the horse’s limitations, as you’d be following him forward and down and this feeling like you’re being pitched. Not saying that you are going to find the canter comfortable in any case without a lot of changes to how this horse canters (if that’s even possible), but try stabilizing some from the sit bones and even upper core rather than feeling like you are just a butt in the saddle with your legs draped. You can do this with an open enough hip angle…look at European jumper riders. This might put you in a place where you can manage the canter for now.

[Djones]

If he’s this stiff and unaccustomed to being asked to do yoga is it fair to do a clinic with him? What’s your goal?

[Lunabear1988]

I’ll keep that in mind! That might be what is making it feel so awful as I’m trying so hard to follow him but like you said it’s probably all too downward…

[Lunabear1988]

Well he is an eventer so some low level dressage is expected of him. The clinic is this weekend and is only a one day ride and is 6 minutes away from his barn so low stress. More low key, with a clinician that is exceptional with green or young horses.

My expectations are low because at home I myself have a 4-year-old. Since I cannot take him I’m okay with this horse also being a bit of a project because some of it will be relatable. The only thing that is not is the canter but even then I’m sure it can be a little bit relatable even if my own horse isn’t as crooked.

My goals are minimal and even if we just stick to walk and trot I feel it will actually be beneficial to the horse and me. I tend to get performance anxiety so clinics are a good way to combat that or in the past they sure have. Because once I get to work it all kind of melts away. Another big thing to work on is always my position. And helping this horse be introduced to suppleness would be beneficial for me to take home to my own horse too. And I figure working on me not being too reliant on my inside rain is always a good thing

Like I said above I am definitely not over ambitions and I will be very in tune about what this horse can do. I will not push him to do something that he physically cannot do and I have faith that the clinician will also not do that.

[IPEsq]

Yes you might be following too much given the canter quality. I took a dressage seat clinic where one of the horses did have a more low and down canter. The criticism was that the rider followed too much which allowed the horse to get too low and on the forehand in the down part of the stride. So the clinician asked her to follow less. I have a tendency to not follow enough at least with the area below the belly button (see above and I also have a long stiff back myself and am not supple either!). I have ridden this other horse including doing his rehab, in both jump tack and dressage, and he was such a core workout for me but I did need to use my jumper seat to try to get him lifted and through and not so pogo feeling behind. Lots of transitions between trot and canter can help plus give you a break from managing the canter and trying to sit. So maybe that’s something you can request you work on…getting the transitions better and then otherwise working more at w/t.

[Lunabear1988]

Also owner and his lease rider will be there to watch which I think will potentially be beneficial for all parties involved. While it’s important to not ask too much of him that he cannot do, I personally think this is a symptom of him needing a little bit more dressage in his life not less. Even just at the very basic level.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes that’s what ironic is I tend to naturally not want to follow it enough and have to kind of work to loosen my hips and lower back. So naturally riding this horse I’m trying more and more to get looser and it’s just not happening! I’m a tad weak in my core not horrible but I’ve been bringing it back as a focus and I work outs as I started to slack. But it does make sense why the owner had a much easier time riding him in the canter than I did.

If anything I think I will get something out of the biomechanics aspect from this clinic

[Djones]

Sounds good. Some belly lifts and carrot stretches in the time between now and the clinic couldn’t hurt, either

[Lunabear1988]

Oh good idea. I know they used to do a lot of belly lifts and carrot stretches but I think that has kind of fallen away too…

I also will make sure that I do a really good warm-up. I think he needs it.

I will definitely report back with how it goes!! It’s definitely not an ideal situation but I’m trying to make the best of it and it will be okay and I think I will learn at least something I always do. Even if it’s a few nuggets of advice.

[Lunabear1988]

I’ve actually done a lot of catch riding in clinics (More so that they needed a spot to fill and I was riding to help a friend and of course didn’t it resent any extra education.) So I’ve literally ridden horses that I had never ridden before in a clinic situation. Or had only had one or two rides before the clinic. So at least I do know this guy even though I’m not his regular rider I have known him for 6 years. So at least I know what I have underneath me before going into this clinic ha ha! Oh boy.