To paraphrase Don Stewart; “Excuuuuse me, Ah didn’t realise ah was surrounded by EEEXPERTS!” 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Linny:
White Camry, the NY Handicap TC was disbanded years ago. The Brooklyn was run in December for a while and this year was run on the Belmont S undercard. The Met and Suburban are still prominent but the Brooklyn is a G2 now. I think that even the Suburban was downgraded for a few years in the 90’s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A pity. Letting a package like that break up does nothing for the sport’s publicity.
Two Simple,
Like you, I was of the opinion that to sit on a horse in a barn was a big “no no” for the reasons you mention – it is very unsafe. It is a practice that I never do on any horse, mainly because the ceilings of most barns are too low and if a horse reared, you could get hurt.
That being said – When I moved to Virginia and started exercising horses for a horse trader here, they owned several race horses. They also bred race horses and when it came time to break these horses, I was asked to help in the breaking/training. My background is in English/Western training and showing of Quarter Horses. I have started many babies in my early years. Always in the round pen or out in an open field.
Well, I was shown by the owners of this farm how they started their babies. When they told me they wanted me to get up on the back of a 2-year old filly in a stall, I told them “they were nuts, I wasn’t going to get myself killed, I would take my chances out in the field.” I then asked the guy who owned the farm for a demonstration of the stall breaking. To my utter amazement, the filly just stood there while he got on her back. He repeated this process every day for about one week, and then took her outside in the field to ride. She was as good as gold.
I then decided to try one of the the 2-year olds myself in the stall. Same thing happened. The process was quit uneventfull. The stall we used was a 12’ x 12’ and had a very high ceiling. Over the next six months, I worked with a number of young TBs, getting on their backs for the first time, all in the stalls.
One thing I must say is that I learned a great deal from Race Horse People, the stall breaking being one of them.
I believe the orginal poster asked about precautions taken when starting racehorses in their stalls. I broke babies as part of T.J. Kelly’s crew in the 80’s. Precautions were as follows: 1) the horses were “turned” (i.e. lunged at a walk) in their stalls for a week or two before backing to learn “gi-up,” whoa, and turning, of course; 2) we first bellied and then backed them in their stalls with the same groom who’d taught the turning acting as groundperson. The grooms kept the horses going forward, thereby preventing rearing, flipping, going down with the rider, etc. I was especially glad to have a helmet for bellying, because the stalls (in Florida) were cement block, and my head banged into the walls quite a bit as the horse was being turned. After a week or so in the stall with both rider and groom, the groom left the stall and we rode them alone in the stall for a few days. Next, the door was opened and we started “shedrowing,” stopping every several rounds of the shedrow to practice the same turns the horses had learned in their stalls. After a month or so of “shedrowing” (mostly at a brisk trot, with interruptions to practice turning and change file leaders), we rode into paddocks where we practiced large, loopy figure 8’s also in single file. After a few weeks in the paddocks, we were ready to go to the track, start walking through the gates, etc. During this entire procedure, I will say that I and most of the other riders felt the safest in the stalls and the least so in the paddocks. The close quarters of the stall did keep them quiet, while the majority of them initially seemed to view the relatively open spaces of the paddocks as an invitation to explode. The first few days of trying to figure eight looked like a super-rodeo with many horses leaping into the sky off their hindlegs like rockets.
As I believe someone else mentioned, it is no small feat to teach young horses confined to stalls 23+ hours/day that they need to be obedient under saddle.
Personally, I think the greatest drawback-- for LOTS of reasons-- to the way TB’s are started is not that they are ridden in the stalls but that they are KEPT in them all day long.
On my own farm, the horses all live out almost all the time. I’ve started some in their stalls, some in the fields, some in the arena… it all depends on where the horse and the people I’m working with at the time feel the most comfortable… as someone else said, confidence is the important thing.
I did find it interesting, however, that Olin Armstrong, who might well have started more top young hunters than anyone else in the country, uses an in-stall method almost exactly like Mr. Kelly’s.
Well, our babies at race facilities are lovingly handled, jog through the country lanes, figure eight, go on van rides, stand quietly in the gate…swap leads and work alone or in a set…stand for the blacksmith and baths…let you trim whiskers …and pull their manes…I don’t understand what more you would want…or how this differs in a “private facility” for “riding horses”. I’d like to think our trainers and jocks are quite grateful for the job WE do also.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Reply </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chanter, did you read SkyBeauty’s post? I think it speaks for itself. I realize not all trainers/training facilities work like that, but I don’t want to take the chance that my horses end up at a place that trains such as that. These are my home-bred ‘babies’ and I just prefer doing it my way. Nothing more needs to be said.
Might not have crossed some minds, but the primary reason people use stalls (IMO) is it is what’s most readily available for most operations. Leave them out all day/night & bring into barn for a session. Several yearlings w/ several stalls handy. I’ve had to do it that way but prefer not having myself and a horse and a wall in close company.
My most ideal situation, or at least one aspect of it, was our set up in Italy which made me change how I’d been breaking (forgetting how in IT we were sending sets of babies out wrong-way w/ older horses galloping by= a thrill in itself) in stalls years before. There, our stable, alloted 60 stalls annually for yearlings w/ 20 for remaining older horses (very seldom did #s waver) and had the good planning of 3 solid walled & banked round-pens. It took less than a week to get all 60 yearlings out on the track, some who arrived barely halter broke. Regardless of how rank, the seclusion/quiet of the pen had their attention (more than any stall) with room to get the hell out from under when needed. Added advantage of being able to send them round & round in soft footing for extra energy snuffer before saddling. I have had one pen for my small group ever since.
–>What is best about NOT being in a stall? When you have several babies being done in one barn, it only takes one to really go off, making all kinds of racket, to set off the others. Many memories of all sitting atop our babies, each eye-balling the one obviously about to blow and thinking “crike, please don’t do it”.
Also, most horses are BETTER in a new/strange enviroment as it’s not offering the security of familiar territory! Kinda like kids, eh? Anyone who’s run a first-time starter w/ shell shock knows the diff between a horse who knows his footing verses one who doesn’t. Most will cling & listen to his handler in a new place much better.
Say what you want about this top place or that & how they did it in stalls yadda-yadda but having done it every way imaginable (still talking horses here 
), I’ll take an enclosed round-pen 
We did not lounge in the roundpen in the same sense others might…except to wear their butts out before putting on saddle & cinching. More wearing out on next day before re-saddling, backing and putting up rider for a round & round session. Repeat on third day & by fourth we were jogging on track.
In Italy we had to break babies on the public tracks, adding to the thrill.
I find having a horse flip in a stall to be a wee too confining. Given the option of a roomy banked roundpen over a 12X12 you’d catch my drift.
PS. Our girths go up quick and tight enough NOT to slip as a thrashing or upset baby is not something easily tackled to take off a loose saddle…some use a surcingle to avoid that upset, but we lacked the time needing to get around 10 done at a time to complete a set.
Edited to add: A solid round-pen is not considered “open space” to a horse. They tend to be pretty focused there, and many of our yearlings abroad came from farms where they recieved little if no previous handling. A few were even focused enough to know which of the two humans alone with them was to die first…
RaceTB, I’m w/ you…too old for that yit!
I’ve broken about twenty or so horses, all in the round pen. However, these hunter/dressage horses had the luxury of having all the ground work done, probably about two weeks worth, before mounting. All this work was done in the round pen, so this became their comfort zone. Most of the time I could belly them bareback for a few days after a longe session (with no ground person) and by the time I threw that leg over it was no big deal. Within three weeks I’m usually hacking them around a small arena. I’ve never used the stall method because that isn’t what I was taught, but thousands of race professionals can’t be wrong. My main problem with the whole thing is how much they are rushed through the process, but money talks, I guess.
I love racing, I always have, but I really wish they would switch the Triple Crown and make it for four year olds. I think we’d see a lot less injuries then. It’s too bad it will never happen.
I have started race horse babies in stalls because that was wthe way th farm manager wanted it , did I feel safe?, NO!You are really t the mercy of whoever is helping you, and, I have had one peson get stepped on , but,luckily not worse; if all the steps have been taken, i would prefer doing it outside, in a ring if necessary. but, I did in my younger , stupider days back one , a TB show horse to be in an open field with my older gelding there to lend “moral support”, and. also keep the colt inline Having an older horse to “supervise” made the workeasy for the colt, and, me, he, the colt,went on to win championships in the hildrens’ hunter division at Uppervile as a 4 year old, so,I guess the training “stuck” I did not know much about TTeAM then, but realize now that we went through all the steps so that carrying a rider was a"non event"
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by SkyBeauty:
Most racehorse babies get a much higher standard of care in a training barn than I’ve ever seen in any riding horse barn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most of them are WORTH MUCH MORE $$$$$$$$, which is certainly a contributing factor.
Most yearlings (speaking commercial sales babies here) are worth more as yearlings than they will ever be worth in their lives. Sure there is the odd duck that will flourish as a racehorse and outrun its pedigree/conformation but most commercial sales yearlings wont earn back their purchase price. Even most of the $Million+ babies wont earn back their purchase price. BUT - I digress…
I sure wouldnt want to send an expensive baby to some nitwit that was afraid to break it in the stall - big investment.
And right on! to Sky Beauty who said that babies broke as riding horses are a total PITA. They have to re-learn so much, and as SkyB pointed out the biggest problem is getting them on the bit. But it is good that they know about tractors, tarps, and that kinda scary stuff.
She wasn’t the only one. Left to early from that party. 
Its not crazy nor is it idiotic when done by people who know what they are doing. And that is the key. 2Simple you stated your BO tried to blanket a horse. And got hurt. How do you know she didn’t scare the horse, catch it off guard or did some other thing which startled this horse and sent it into a tale spin. There are reasons horses do what they do. Most are linked to people in a hurry, not having the knowledge or just plain being stupid. We didn’t have near as many accidents in our youth as there are now, but thats a whole nother thread.
Hey Hunter’s!! I was there for 3 or 4 years. Colts only…and jump race horses headed for Europe once in a while. Ohhhhh, early to mid 80’s?? Leroy was my ground man always. David was another mainstay then…and Gregory. OF COURSE I forget what horses, what years. Penny Bank, Lightning Leap, Hero’s Honor, Danger’s Hour, Fit To Fight… come to mind. Bernie Garrit [?] was yearling manager. Mack Miller made an appearance now and then. If your late husband was part of this team, bless him…They were the finest.
Not a race horse, but that is how I first backed Music. A nice, familiar, confined space.
I personally find breaking or backing horses in stalls to be WAY more of a hazard to ones health than using a round-pen.
I have been forced to break babies a number of ways and by far the most preferable was a few days in round-pen (solid walls and w/ steep banking) then out to the track in pods. Ee-ha. My own daughter, who is getting on 15 +/- babies a day is reminding me why this is for young people only I think (the less I know the better) they still do some work in stalls, which bothers me.
Go to Fjordjockey’s photo album for updates…yeash. She has a black eye, cantalope sized knee and a smile in latest shots.
We also break our TB yearlings in the stall. We also break our show horses the same way. We first teach them to wall tie (as weanlings), then work on grooming them on the wall, then bitting, then tacking up, then turning, then leaning over their backs. We usually take them out and walk with them in the shedrow to do teh final backing depending on the horse). All of this is done at each horse’s speed, so we’ll stay at any point as needed. As for waiting until they are 2, we don’t do that because we only break them for an average of 10 days and then stop with them until they are 2 year olds and/or are ready to begin training according to their individual readiness).
As for teh whole 4-H and Pony Club thing, I would HOPE they’s tell kids to mount up outside the stall and not “ride” in the stall 
- after all, they are KIDS. We’re talking apples and oranges here - most TB stalls are fairly big with no ceilings. Also, the people that work with TBs and break them are not little pony clubbers learning how to groom, ride and show. This is a fast paced business with many very good horseman (yes, there are plenty of bad apples like other disciplines). To hang onto a creedo from the pony club or your old riding instructor when we’re talking about TB racehorses seems a bit absurd to me. I thing they are great rules and I follow them when I’m in my hunter mode too, but to say it’s unsafe and to be so adament about it seems stubborn at best. To each his own, and by all means stick to your guns, but it’s rather insulting to those of us who follow our methodd that WORK for us to be told that we’re unsafe and that our thinking is wrong and leads to the slaughter and the HIGH number of broken down horses that you’ve seen is just arrogant and insulting. I’d love to show you all of our “graduates” who are eventing, showing and are schoolies, and yes, many of them at ripe old ages. Such attacks when people are trying to explain a method are unwarrented IMO. No one is saying that everyone SHOULD use the stall method, just why and how it seems to work and be so prevalent in racing barns (and evidently in some hunter barns).
To get back to that, we just finished breaking broke the two yearlings (coming two yr olds) that we keep at our home. Neither of them turned a hair at any of it - the girthing, backing etc was quiet, calm and like they’d been doing it their whole lives. Very stress-free for all involved, and this is common for our babies and for most of the people I know in the industry. There are some that skip steps and end up with rank or scared youngsters on the track and I always feel sorry for those babies. I see the same thing in other disciplines though - some people are just not patient enough to be dealing with babies (or animals in general).
My ex-neighbor is a racehorse trainer and he always gets on them in the stalls to start them.
Yep, we did/do it. The main precaution is that the stall is high enough, and we remove buckets, etc. The horses have been sacked, backed, etc. The stalls I’ve used are at least 12 by 12. We don’t have an arena
We do have a roundpen, but when you have a few horses and riders, there’s no time to start everyone in it. That said, the last horse I started in the stall was a loner at a facility with a shedrow and roundpen. We did it in the stall because that’s where we always do it I had one rear on me, which was a little scary, but I’ve never been thrown or hurt in a stall. The yearlings are pretty well started before we get on.
Your husband learned from a good one Freebird!!
mht…Your point of view was dismissive and condescending, especially to post in the race forum with that attitude, and not expect us to defend ourselves. Do your yearlings experience starting gates and working in sets…broken as riding horses? I’d think these things are rather appreciated by the next folks in line to work with them.
Two Simple, you really should back what you say with some facts. I’ve seen/read horrible things about hunter folks. Completely unsafe and stupid and cruel to horses. There are many things in the hunter world, western world, dressage world, gaited world, etc., that I don’t agree with, and I hope you don’t, either. I won’t give you any names or facts–you’ll just have to trust me I must say, I’m glad you and I disagree!
