Riding Student falls- procedure and etiquette

[OnDeck]

@NC001

Sorry this is ridiculous. I’ve had 1 fall off a horse and I severely broke my wrist so there’s your anecdotal evidence.

The big problem with all of you saying just get back on it’s a fall no big deal- how exactly do YOU know if its a big deal? Asking a kid who’s shaken if they are okay is not proof they weren’t hurt. And unless you are a trained medical professional you have no business making that judgement call. How do you know if a bone is broken or the kid has a concussion? You might not. Kids don’t know the signs and may not realize if they are okay or not.

And this is just a freaking riding lesson- it is really worth the risk of sending a kid that hit their head back on the horse right away? we arent going to the olympics here - they are kids taking a lesson and will be perfectly okay if they dont get back on the horse but instead try again another day. There is no proof a kid getting back on immediately will make them a better rider. That is so old school- every kid has different needs and showing them respect for their judgement about their well being can go a long way in them trusting an instructor.

For those of you who say ambulance or get back on- please never teach beginners. I would never ride with some one with that attitude much less let my kid ride with them. Make sure your parents know that about you before you take their money.

Like I said, I was just posting my experience. You cannot assert that your experience is more normal than mine. 100% of falls do not result in injuries. And, with all due respect, one fall does not suggest an extensive and intense riding background. I consider my 20 - 30 to be a very very low number because I have been very lucky in my 20 years of experience. I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of falls where the rider was truly uninjured and got back on the horse.

An 11 year old is perfectly capable of telling you if they feel injured. Heck, a toddler can point to where it hurts. Obviously its up to the adults in the situation to make the final call. If it was a bad fall or she seems stunned or not quite right, by all means make her sit out. But it’s really unlikely she’s seriously injured if she seems completely coherent and does not feel any pain. I’m not suggesting you have to get on immediately but I am suggesting that if you’re not injured there’s no reason not too.

Are you suggesting we make kids sit out and call the parents every time they fall? What if they land on their feet? What if they hit the ground giggling? What if the horse puts his head down and they were really only 6 inches from the ground when they let go? Are we going to leave work to pick up our kids every time they fall off the playground equipment at school? Do they have to sit out of practice every time they get hit with a soccer ball? Yikes, I don’t want to hang out with them when they’re adults!

[darcilyna]

@soloudinhere

I can’t say, in over 25 years of riding and probably dozens of facilities, have I ever been at a place that has incident reports. I mean workplaces yes, but not equine facilities of any kind. I would not expect this to be normal behavior.

It sounds like for the second incident you were there, so what did you expect? An incident report for something you saw happen?

I just now saw this comment. No, I do not expect an incident report; I posted this asking what is typical for other barns over many locations, etc. I posted this wondering what kindof follow up, if any, I might expect or appropriately desire after such an incident.

[trubandloki]

I guess a slang word can have lots of meanings.

I have never heard it be what @NoSuchPerson described it to be.
Though I can see why someone would use that term there.

I have always known it to be a small horse that is just that much too big to ride in the pony divisions. Breeding does not matter, just size.

[NC001]

@OnDeck

Like I said, I was just posting my experience. You cannot assert that your experience is more normal than mine. 100% of falls do not result in injuries. And, with all due respect, one fall does not suggest an extensive and intense riding background. I consider my 20 - 30 to be a very very low number because I have been very lucky in my 20 years of experience. I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of falls where the rider was truly uninjured and got back on the horse.

An 11 year old is perfectly capable of telling you if they feel injured. Heck, a toddler can point to where it hurts. Obviously its up to the adults in the situation to make the final call. If it was a bad fall or she seems stunned or not quite right, by all means make her sit out. But it’s really unlikely she’s seriously injured if she seems completely coherent and does not feel any pain. I’m not suggesting you have to get on immediately but I am suggesting that if you’re not injured there’s no reason not too.

Are you suggesting we make kids sit out and call the parents every time they fall? What if they land on their feet? What if they hit the ground giggling? What if the horse puts his head down and they were really only 6 inches from the ground when they let go? Are we going to leave work to pick up our kids every time they fall off the playground equipment at school? Do they have to sit out of practice every time they get hit with a soccer ball? Yikes, I don’t want to hang out with them when they’re adults!

Are you a medical professional? Because you sure seem to think you can tell whether a person has a serious injury or not. You can try to stretch this however you want and try your best to say parents who want to be notified that their child has a fall are helicopters and kids can tell when they have a concussion or a broken bone so parents are just over reacting… what I’m telling you is you need to be upfront with any children and their parents you work with that this is the way you feel. Im guessing you do not work with kid though based on your attitude. Do not take money from people you think of so poorly if you are an instructor and you feel this way.

[NC001]

@darcilyna

I just now saw this comment. No, I do not expect an incident report; I posted this asking what is typical for other barns over many locations, etc. I posted this wondering what kindof follow up, if any, I might expect or appropriately desire after such an incident.

Our instructor follows up and ask how the kid or adult is doing after a fall. Really it’s just common respect and shows some effort of caring about their students. Not too much to ask IMO.

[candyappy]

@darcilyna

It could very well be that this was the day this particular pony got super “soured” maybe this behavior was never seen before. I know things like that happen

In my experience bad behavior builds. More likely the poor pony was exhibiting mild bad behaviors that nobody was addressing or noticing.

No matter what you are right to move forward and don’t be afraid to speak up on your daughters behalf and insist she get a safe horse to ride. At 11 I wouldn’t expect her to be the one to bring that up with the instructor without your back up.

I hope her riding from here on out is safer and more enjoyable for you both.

[Posting_Trot]

OP: you’re certainly getting a COTH baptism by fire!

At any event, as a person who grew up riding and who has one son who rode for a couple of years just by taking a weekly lesson, I just want to chime in.

I think you’re asking the right questions, particularly given that you are a newbie to horses.

Personally, I would not be pleased with an instructor or a program that allowed my child to ride a pony that was pulling that kind of nonsense. Yes, mistakes do happen, but after the first fall, your daughter might have either been put on another horse or allowed just to walk on the original pony. A second and third fall should never have happened in the same lesson in the same way. That they did happen is an indication of idiocy on the part of the instructor.

My son only came off once in a couple of years worth of lessons, and then was when the horse bucked. This was my horse that he was taking a lesson on, and I watched what happened. He got back on, but then only walked around for a few minutes afterwards. Truthfully, he never really rode again. (He’s done a couple of low key trail rides since, but nothing more).

Children will of course react as individuals, and my son was not super into riding in the first place. But don’t discount the level of fear that a fall can cause.

Frankly, in your situation, I’d go to a different barn/different lesson program. Getting involved in Pony Club is also a great option.

[delta-time]

You mentioned your daughter is in an IEA program. In IEA, riders show horses they’ve never ridden before, provided by the host team. I did IHSA in college, which is a very similar format. Some of the horses are difficult, quirky, or otherwise not perfect lesson horses. Learning to be effective on horses you aren’t used to, aren’t comfortable on, or just don’t like is a skill she’ll have to learn to be successful in IEA.

I’m not a trainer, but I did do four years of IHSA and I was heavily involved in horse selection and schooling for the shows my school hosted. We had a finite amount of horses, and those horses couldn’t go in every class of the day. There were some times when we got down to the walk/trot and walk/trot/canter divisions at the end of the day, and the great walk/trot horses were lame or tired or cranky. More difficult (not dangerous!) horses took their place.

I’d not be so quick to find a new barn. Sure, looking back, we can say “she should have quit after one or two falls,” but I can think of several very valid reasons a trainer would make the call to put the kid back on the same horse. Was the trainer trying to teach “sit up, leg on, use crop?” Stickability? Mental toughness? All those things are needed to be competitive in IEA.

If you’re really uncomfortable with what happened in that lesson, talk to the trainer. Make your expectations clear. There’s a lot of options here between “get a new trainer” and “don’t change anything.” Maybe you want the horse schooled after any fall. Maybe you want your daughter to have a 5-minute break after a fall to take a breather. Maybe you want the trainer to ask if your daughter wants to ride a different horse, instead of relying on her to speak up.

[darcilyna]

So after some texts today I asked for a face to face with the barn owner/ head instructor. We often text and that can just be so impersonal and hard to communicate well. I often feel like I don’t communicate well and misunderstand others on text or am misunderstood. I think of how to better say it later etc.

The trainer who came out and schooled the horse will be there too. The trainer who taught said lesson I don’t think is working today. I asked my husband to join me for moral support and he has concerns too.

I had told the owner (via text) that my girl says she doesn’t wants to ride that horse again (in a somewhat joking manner) I wrote:
”‹She definitely wants to get back out there. Just never wants to ride Noname(changed name) again”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Reply:

That’s not really acceptable. Make sure she knows that’s not something we do or say. We don’t blame our horses it’s not appropriate or fair. That was not his fault. They are animals and there is always something we can do better.

and I did say after “such a fall” meaning the result…broken wrist… And really meaning after 3 falls in one lesson. But alas that is not what I actually wrote. I wrote:
"
I am sure we all need to discuss and help her (and probably myself) have the right understanding and attitude after such a fall. "

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹her reply to me wà s:

I’m not understanding what you mean by “such a fall”. Kids fall off of horses every day. She fell over his neck because he put his head down. I don’t think we should play up the severity of the incident, it’s unfortunate she broke her wrist but it was not something the pony did or didn’t do. She should’ve sat up and got his head back up. It is unfortunate she lost her balance but that is all that took place, from speaking with (two trainers (one who was teaching and one who came out to do the schooling of the horse) and horse -knowledgable parent.)

I am writing out all my thoughts and would love any input or concerns or perspectives that can help this meeting go well.

[TMares]

Meh- stop the texting. Just sit down and talk together and see if ‘getting on the same page’ is even possible. A green 11 who has lost confidence in a given horse after falling off twice in one hour is going to be huddled in the fetal position/hunched forward on said pony UNLESS the trainer is helping them be successful by tailoring the ASKS and the CHALLENGES to the child’s ABILITIES. Rome was not built in a day, people.

I would rather they said something on the order of ‘we’ll put a grazing rein on him for the next lesson for two reasons: to teach him that’s not possible to do, and to rebuild her confidence.’ Personally I hear NOTHING of empathy for the kid, only ‘duh, they fall off’- it’s entirely possible to be empathetic and solution seeking AND ‘duh, they fall off’ Of COURSE they fall off. But this stuff as described is getting past ‘duh, they fall off.’

Maybe they are ‘right’ - they saw it. Maybe they are NOT right. We on COTH can’t know.

[PerpetualLessonStude]

I just wanted to chime in with my thoughts, as a younger person who started riding in the late 2000s with non-horsey parents. From my experience, my instructors always emphasized getting back on as long as it was safe to do so. (Almost all of my personal falls were instances of just landing on my butt and dirtying my breeches. Oftentimes there are shakes or tears from the shock.) If there was no injury, the motive to get back on-ESPECIALLY when I was younger and more inexperienced-was so that I ended on a good note and didn’t feel afraid.

On the note of your recent text exchanges with the trainer, I’m not surprised with the answer. Your daughter should not be getting pulled out of the saddle. The fact that she was unmounted repeatedly in that manner demonstrates that she needs to be stronger physically (I understand that she’s 11 and there’s going to be a limit on that as she’s still growing) or stronger mentally (be more assertive and take command of the situation). Either root cause will stir up problems with her riding on ANY horse until she works past them. It could maybe be hidden by more obedient horses, but it won’t go away by avoiding Mr. Head Dropper.
It may be a good idea to recommend to the trainer that your daughter my benefit by one or two lessons away from this specific horse to build her confidence back, but that she will be open to riding him in the future. You may have better results with that angle.

But best of luck to your daughter-I hope that she heals up quickly and enjoys IEA!

[Mia_Sorella]

OP I think the range of responses you’ve gotten here are pretty representative of the general consensus (or lack thereof) when it comes to lesson falls in the horse world. We definitely have a “suck it up” and get back on culture, but you as the parent can and should be an advocate for your child. We live in a world of increasing knowledge regarding the cumulative effect of head injuries and frankly, the horse world needs to catch up.

This whole situation could be chalked up to a series of misunderstandings and poor judgment. Newish trainer not entirely familiar with the lesson string and students; your daughter may appear more experienced because of athletic ability or innate talent and instructor miscalculated the horse/rider pairing. This particular ducking maneuver can be harder for a top-heavy adult (e.g. long torso, well endowed…you get the idea) to school out of a pony so I can understand how the situation may have resulted in your daughter coming off 3 times, through no serious wrongdoing on anyone’s part.

HOWEVER the text message responses you have received are completely unacceptable in my opinion, and I’m not even a parent. The crappy truth that most of us horse people don’t like to acknowledge is that for every daredevil kid that toughed it out with a dirty pony and came out a better rider, exponentially more kids were scared or hurt by that same type of pony, and those kids ended up quitting or never really realizing their potential in this sport because of those experiences. And those kids are not going to be the ones advising you as adults on a horsey message board or as barn owners and instructors.

Yes, accidents happen and being around horses is inherently dangerous. However, even those silly “crap happens” falls can result in serious injury or death, so it is our responsibility to work to minimize all falls, including the silly ones. This means having well schooled appropriate lesson horses that are suitable for students’ experience levels and abilities. And YES, you can and should be able to say no I don’t want to ride that particular horse or I don’t feel comfortable doing that particular exercise.

If that’s not “how they do things” at this barn, then I think you should start looking for different barns. This is not the kind of environment you want to be dropping your daughter off at unsupervised, while she puts in her “working student” hours. That she was even offered a “working student” opportunity with so little experience under her belt is a red flag to me that she will likely be used as free labour and a crash test dummy at a barn where it’s just “not their way” to let students admit fear and decline to ride a particular horse.

If I had a child, I would not want her to be schooling dirty maneuvers out of horses or ponies until she could w/t/c with and without stirrups and jump a small course with some degree of autonomy (e.g. know when to change a lead, circle to rebalance/get control or correct a bad line, etc.). At this point, your child doesn’t know enough to recognize when she’s in trouble. And she doesn’t have the physical ability or skill set to separate what she’s doing from what the horse is doing. Until she has those basics, putting her on tricky ponies is more likely to get her hurt or scared to the point she quits, than it is to turn her into some Velcro-seat superstar little rider.

Wishing you all the best in your upcoming meeting. You may have some hard decisions to make.

[mmeqcenter]

@trubandloki

I guess a slang word can have lots of meanings.

I have never heard it be what @NoSuchPerson described it to be.
Though I can see why someone would use that term there.

I have always known it to be a small horse that is just that much too big to ride in the pony divisions. Breeding does not matter, just size.

Same

[Scribbler]

You are not going to get any admission of responsibility in a text discussion because the barn knows perfectly well your next stop could be your lawyer if your medical insurer decides to sue for costs.

Have a discussion in person about moving forward that does not involve trying to place blame. Your daughter clearly doesn’t ride that well yet at least on emergencies and the trainers aren’t alert enough to see that. It’s perfectly fine for kid to want to return to riding on a quieter horse or at a walk.

These COTH threads are full of adult riders discussing how they lost their nerve after a fall or injury. Somehow we expect kids to be more resilient or that its s moral failure if they develop fears. Much better to address fears same as if it was an adult beginner rider.

[Scribbler]

I also suggest OP read this recent thread, very similar problem.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/western/10467358-helping-11-year-old-regain-confidence

[mmeqcenter]

She’s 11, and ridden “off and on” for two years, if I’m remembering correctly. She is a green, inexperienced rider, and should not be expected to deal with or take charge of a pony pulling a bad habit that’s getting her off. In my example where I fell off eight times in one lesson, I was a more experienced teen who was jumping 3’6’’-4’ and loved the greenies (still do). That is not the case with this young girl, and it is unfair to expect the exact same “mental toughness” out of everyone. Everyone’s different, and obviously this lesson didn’t “toughen her up” mentally, it broke her down instead.
There’s a reason (most) people start kids and new riders on safe “schoolmaster” types. They have to have solid “sea legs” and know how to handle the normal stuff before learning to deal with the tough stuff. A pony purposefully stopping and dropping the shoulder/head to get its rider off is not a safe schoolmaster. This rider was very obviously over-mounted. Yes, she should have sat back and pulled his head up. Clearly, she didn’t know that, no one told her that, and/or she wasn’t strong enough to do it. This is over-mounted, and possibly under-instructed. She should be allowed to learn strength and confidence on a safe mount; she can test her will and strength again on “Mr Head Dropper” after a year of practice, strength gain, and confidence-building.

Honestly, OP, I’m not surprised either at the response from the BO/HT. They’re sounding pretty defensive, so may be worried about a lawsuit. You can try to be as sensitive in the in-person discussion as you want, but be prepared for the exact same kind of response as you got in the text. My favorite trainer ever (obviously not the one I fell off eight times in one lesson with) would never have responded in such a way, she would have said absolutely she can ride a different one for a while, and when she’s feeling more confident we’ll put her back on the pony. Even before that, she’d have had an experienced rider come in and school the pony (trainer was like 6’ tall or she’d have done it herself) for a few minutes after the kid fell off the second time, but it is what it is. People are who they are - when they show you, believe them.

[CHT]

I have not read all 5 pages (just the first) so this may have already been said, but the barn’s insurance company likely requires an incident report for all falls…so that begs the question to me: is your barn insured and are they just not following procedure, or do they lack insurance too? I have NEVER had a client ask me about our liability insurance and I do think it is a valid question that clients should feel comfortable asking about…a barn should have liability insurance AND follow the code of conduct laid out by their insurance company.

[darcilyna]

Update: the sit down was congenial and went fine overall. No admission of any fault by anyone but the rider. Which I agree might be due to fear of a lawsuit. And somewhat understandable.

I did learn that this pony has reportedly NEVER displayed this behavior before. He was leaning his head down and therefore dd lost her balance. He just did not want to be ridden that day and was being a nudge. Off day for him as up until this point her has been a good schooling pony for little ones etc with no problems.

About fault I said: “it bothers me that you don’t even think it could have been 1% trainer fault, 1% horse fault …I agree my dd did not do everything right but no way was she 100% at fault for 3 falls.”

She still backed up her trainer 💯 and her horse. Which is to be expected I guess.

The head trainer did say "I did not see what happened. Did you feel the trainer did not do something she should have etc. We said we felt more instruction should have been given between falls to avoid exactly the event happening…which we did not hear nor did my dd report. She said she was told to lengthen the reins and kick more to keep him going (he was stopping). She was not told to sit UP when he pulls his head down etc.

Lots of replies of well its learned in the moment…I didn’t get to fully talk to the trainer about what happened etc. This trainer is new to us only dd’s 2nd or 3rd lesson with her… Part of the issue maybe rider/student not knowing each other well.

They did NOT think dd was unmatched with the level of the pony… Just a new situation she did not know how to handle.

My husband wants to know why there is no “on the ground” training. Other sports do this. Or even after a fall why not mimic what happen to show what should be done to prevent it. We were told that is just not how we do it… Each horse is different …kids learn in the saddle.

Also we discussed the concept of falling drills. Practicing falling in training this is practice.Apparently no longer recommended as research has shown it doesn’t help.

My husband went away thinking well they don’t admit that anything should change so why should we ask for or recommend any change? He thinks we should shop around or find dd another activity to dive into.

I know I’ll think of more later but I wanted to post this update.

[tbchick84]

@darcilyna

Reply:

That’s not really acceptable. Make sure she knows that’s not something we do or say. We don’t blame our horses it’s not appropriate or fair. That was not his fault. They are animals and there is always something we can do better.

.

Yeah I think I’d be done right there. “Don’t blame the horse” applies to experienced riders who should have known better, not lesson ponies who are clearly exhibiting training issues. You certainly have a right to request your daughter not ride that horse, at least until she is older, more experienced and ready for a bit of a challenge.

[SuzieQNutter]

@darcilyna

Update: the sit down was congenial and went fine overall. No admission of any fault by anyone but the rider. Which I agree might be due to fear of a lawsuit. And somewhat understandable.

I did learn that this pony has reportedly NEVER displayed this behavior before. He was leaning his head down and therefore dd lost her balance. He just did not want to be ridden that day and was being a nudge. Off day for him as up until this point her has been a good schooling pony for little ones etc with no problems.

About fault I said: “it bothers me that you don’t even think it could have been 1% trainer fault, 1% horse fault …I agree my dd did not do everything right but no way was she 100% at fault for 3 falls.”

She still backed up her trainer 💯 and her horse. Which is to be expected I guess.

The head trainer did say "I did not see what happened. Did you feel the trainer did not do something she should have etc. We said we felt more instruction should have been given between falls to avoid exactly the event happening…which we did not hear nor did my dd report. She said she was told to lengthen the reins and kick more to keep him going (he was stopping). She was not told to sit UP when he pulls his head down etc.

Lots of replies of well its learned in the moment…I didn’t get to fully talk to the trainer about what happened etc. This trainer is new to us only dd’s 2nd or 3rd lesson with her… Part of the issue maybe rider/student not knowing each other well.

They did NOT think dd was unmatched with the level of the pony… Just a new situation she did not know how to handle.

My husband wants to know why there is no “on the ground” training. Other sports do this. Or even after a fall why not mimic what happen to show what should be done to prevent it. We were told that is just not how we do it… Each horse is different …kids learn in the saddle.

Also we discussed the concept of falling drills. Practicing falling in training this is practice.Apparently no longer recommended as research has shown it doesn’t help.

My husband went away thinking well they don’t admit that anything should change so why should we ask for or recommend any change? He thinks we should shop around or find dd another activity to dive into.

I know I’ll think of more later but I wanted to post this update.

It is never the horses fault is a lifestyle. It really comes down to the fact that the pony did not choose to be in that lesson and did not choose to be ridden by your daughter. So no blame can be assigned.

NOW EVERY. SINGLE. horse and pony will try and get the rider out of the saddle. Why? Because the seat is what controls them, not just legs and reins.

Yes there are things you can do at home.

1/ Give her ‘reins’ to hold and not let go. Get her to slouch, put her heels up on the side of the chair not in front, loose tummy, loose arms but hold those reins and give her a small tug. This is what happened on the pony she should come forward.

NOW get her to sit up tall, shoulders square, head up, elbows by side, tighten tummy muscles. Elbows by sides, thumbs up. Heels down. (This exercise is better done on a quiet pony but a chair will suffice) This time when you give the tug, she should stay in position and not be pulled forward.

So strengthen her stomach muscles as it is the stomach muscles in experienced riders that stop horses and ponies trying this trick. Pilates is the answer and can be done while she is healing.

You and hubby can do it too.