Riding with a kicker - input, please?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’ve been invited to ride with a new group, but I’m a little concerned about a recent incident.

One of the group, distracted, allowed his horse to ride up the backside of the horse in front. Who responded by kicking Distracted Rider’s Mount. DRM, not to be outdone, turned and began firing both barrels at Kicking Horse and Kicking Horse’s Rider. I am told the exchange continued for a few minutes. Somehow, no one was hurt.

I guess I’ve led a sheltered life, but I’ve not been involved in this sort of thing before and have some questions.

While I realize being ridden into would be startling, is kicking a normal response? The horses were at a walk. It wasn’t a high-speed collision. More like a bump.
Once the kicking match started, what if any action might or should the riders have taken?

Me, I’m always super-conscious of keeping a horse length back, and the only time I’ve been bumped was when I was riding a very tolerant fellow who didn’t react. So I’m hoping to benefit by the vicarious experiences of fellow COTH’ers. Anybody have experience, advice, or wisdom to share?

[Foxtrot_s]

Bet the front horse was a mare???

I hear the dilemma - I hate it, but horses have to become seasoned and get used to riding in groups, but the in between times are the scary part.

Can try pairing the front, kicker, with a horse it will become best friends with and feel safe in front of, behind, and beside. Then add horses to the new herd, and both riders have to be very tuned into which horse is behind them and beside them. Keep the DRM and front rider separated for a long while and be mindful of the scenarios.

Racehorses learn, field hunters learn, trail horses have to learn, too. Not everyone can be relied upon to tie a red ribbon.

I think my horse is safe from being a kicker as it has never happened but she gets a bit fizzy when something rides up close. She seems to know her own buddies.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Thanks, Foxtrot’s. Oh, yes, Kicking Horse is a mare. And a well-known kicker. She has herdmates, but even their riders, I am told, are loathe to ride within reach of KH on a trail.

[Quelah]

I won’t ride with a known kicking horse. Horses are dangerous enough as it is. I’ve trail ridden for decades and several of those decades on mares (3, mother and then daughter, then a very late started HOT Shire mare). None would have kicked if a horse bumped them from behind. It happened to all of them, multiple times. My Shire mare did once kick at another horse. My friend’s Belgian mare kicked at her, totally without warning as best I could tell. My Shire mare saw it coming (thank god) and spun away (so I got a smart tap on the calf from the Belgian instead of getting my leg shattered) and as soon as her front feet landed she let fly with both hind feet, once, and that was the end of it. I patted her and told her she was very clever.

So no, I won’t ride with a kicker. My BFF has a little Morgan mare that is a known kicker. It sucks, because it means I don’t ride with her anymore, and won’t, until that horse dies, or I have two suitable horses and she can ride a horse other than her own.

[Highflyer]

I always assume pretty much any horse will kick and treat them accordingly. I’d be much more concerned about riding with these people, who don’t really sound like they have much control over their horses.

[CFFarm]

it’s up to the rider to control the kicking horse. The fact that you say the kicking went on for several minutes makes me think the rider is not that experienced. The horse should stay in the rear of the group and the rider needs to learn to control where the horses hindquarters are at all times. End of problem.

[tabula_rashah]

These don’t sound like folks I’d ride with. A kicker I can deal with because I know how to control my own horse, but other riders who have no control over what their horses are doing? Nope, won’t ride with them

[Guilherme]

Two issues, here.

If a rider is mounted on a known kicker they have a duty to put the red ribbon in the tail. This warns others. If that was not done the rider should be corrected. If they don’t comply, excluded.

Distracted Rider has a duty to pay attention to what’s going on around them. Any horse might “kick out” if a stranger tries to get too close. The Cavalry standard was four feet, nose to tail. It’s a good rule.

What happened afterwards is a fine example of juvenile behavior. The trail boss should have taken both aside, chewed them a couple of new fundamental orifices, and then dismissed them for the ride for the rest of the day.

G.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Yes, the control these folks have (or don’t) over their horses is the part I’ve been wondering about. Once the first kicks were exchanged, what should the riders have done?
Granted, the incident shouldn’t have started in the first place. But once it happened - what then?

[tabula_rashah]

@pAin't_Misbehavin'

Yes, the control these folks have (or don’t) over their horses is the part I’ve been wondering about. Once the first kicks were exchanged, what should the riders have done?
Granted, the incident shouldn’t have started in the first place. But once it happened - what then?

I guess I don’t understand why the riders continued to let the kicking go on? Could they not send their horses forward so they were not in kicking distance of one another? If the horses were not trained enough that wouldn’t move away from each other, then they have no business being out on the trail in the first place. If my horse gets pissy at another horse, it gets verbal reprimanded and that’s all any of them need but if someone were to have no control and allow their horse to get at mine, my first move would be to get outta dodge to minimize damage. Then there’d be a CTJ meeting with me and the other rider later. I feel it is my job to keep my horse safe on the trail- pay attention, keep your horse at a proper following distance and if you have someone getting up on your horse- tell them to back off or get your and your horse away from them. This is a big reason that I do NOT do big group rides- more often then not they’re a bunch of yahoos who can’t ride their way out of a paper bag.

[dacasodivine]

I have a mare that in the first 8 years I owned her, she never kicked at another horse until twice in one ride someone not paying attention allowed their horse to walk into her butt. She fired a kick after the second time. I didn’t punish her. The other horse could have caught her heal and injured her. Imo it’s rude. Pay attention to what you’re doing and where you’re going.

Knowing the horse was a kicker, why would anyone NOT pay attention to where they were at all times? I fault the rider who first allowed his horse to walk into another and then couldn’t control the horse when it spun and started kicking.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Thanks, tabula rashah. I didn’t witness the incident - just heard about it after the fact. So I’m not sure if the riders tried to send their horses forward or not. That would be my first instinct - but since I’ve never (knock wood) been in this situation I didn’t know if that was the best response.

I remember being at a Buck clinic once where he made a point of thanking riders for allowing his horse his personal space when they’d come up to talk with him. I thought that was a nice way to make people aware.

You bring up an interesting point - what are everyone’s standards for people with whom they ride? We had a thread on deal-breaker vices in horses - what about in riding buddies? What are those bad habits you just won’t put up with? Which are less than ideal, but can be corrected tactfully or worked around? And how do you do it?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@dacasodivine

I have a mare that in the first 8 years I owned her, she never kicked at another horse until twice in one ride someone not paying attention allowed their horse to walk into her butt. She fired a kick after the second time. I didn’t punish her. The other horse could have caught her heal and injured her. Imo it’s rude. Pay attention to what you’re doing and where you’re going.

Knowing the horse was a kicker, why would anyone NOT pay attention to where they were at all times? I fault the rider who first allowed his horse to walk into another and then couldn’t control the horse when it spun and started kicking.

Good point. I’d not thought about how the horse being used as a bumper might be injured.

Distracted Rider accepts 100% of the blame for the situation and apologized profusely. He doesn’t normally ride like that, but that one day he allowed himself to be distracted by something trailside and let his horse keep walking, not realizing the Kicking Horse had stopped. Kicking Horse let fly upon being bumped, whereupon Distracted Rider’s Horse spun and retaliated in kind.

[tabula_rashah]

@pAin't_Misbehavin'

You bring up an interesting point - what are everyone’s standards for people with whom they ride? We had a thread on deal-breaker vices in horses - what about in riding buddies? What are those bad habits you just won’t put up with? Which are less than ideal, but can be corrected tactfully or worked around? And how do you do it?

My big number one is safety. I’m not a “riding prude”- I like to move out on trail and hit the super technical stuff- BUT I do everything with the thought of getting me, my horses and, often, my students home safe and sound. A couple things that really bother me are when you get to a field and half of the people take off at a gallop in and among the rest of the riders. I don’t mind people galloping but do it without running everyone else over- I’ve seen so many accidents happen with this. There’s one lady that I’ve ridden with before that will hold her horse back to the end of the line, then run up by everyone else, turn around and do it again- even on tight trails. She’s always on the brakes or on the gas- drives me batty!! I also try not to ride with the type that see a big ride as a social event but forget all about the fact that it’s work for the horse- they run their horse all day and then wonder why it colics or ties-up. And not that this has to do with riding per say, but I tend to stay away from those who smoke on trail. Nothing worse that being out on a beautiful trail and getting a face full of smoke- yuck!

Edited to add: Two years ago a friend of mine was part of a riding club that was going on a ride at an amazing place that is by invitation only. She asked if I wanted to come along and I jumped at the chance. Well about 80 people showed up and I’d say maybe about 20 had any idea of trail etiquette. I was on my very seasoned mare but even she was pretty frazzled from all the stupid going on. Actually now that I think of it, when we were all remounting after the lunch break- I was sitting on my mare, well away from anyone, a guy got on his horse who went flying backwards a good ways and ended up double barreling me and my horse (mostly got my ankle) before I could get out of the way. The worst part though was that people were littering all over the place- plastic water bottles, cigarette butts, etc. I helped pick some up but after my accident mounting from the ground is very hard for me so I couldn’t get it all. I really hope that group didn’t ruin it for invites for other group

[csaper58]

All persons trail riding should be in control of their mounts at all times and maintain a safe distance [a horse’s body length] from all other horses.

All riders should assume no one else in their party can control their mount and practice defensive riding.

All changes in direction or speed should be agreed on by the group and executed in an orderly fashion

There is no place on the trail for distracted riders, inebriated riders, or weak willed riders who let their horses make the decisions.

Any horse that kicks goes last, with nothing behind it but empty air.

I only trail ride with a small group of like minded equestrians.

We all know each other, and each other’s horses.

We all do our best to make sure everyone has a great ride.

[Palm_Beach]

@CFFarm

it’s up to the rider to control the kicking horse. The fact that you say the kicking went on for several minutes makes me think the rider is not that experienced. The horse should stay in the rear of the group and the rider needs to learn to control where the horses hindquarters are at all times. End of problem.

Nope, what Highflyer said is right. You have to expect horses to act like horses. It’s normal for a horse to think about kicking at another horse when it comes up too close behind, especially a strange horse. I don’t tolerate it, but I’ve been taken by surprise when a horse comes up close behind. I usually tell the offending rider that my horse is objecting to the lack of space and that person needs to hang back a few more feet. It’s the RIDER’S responsibility to keep his or her horse OUT of the other horses’ spaces.

I do agree that if the kicking went on and on, no one had control.

I ride as if every horse around me kicks and bites. Everywhere, every day.

[Feliz]

Wow, that sounds pretty crazy. I’m really struggling to get my head around how it was allowed to carry on for so long by the riders? My response would have been to send my horse forward, immediately, by any means necessary.

A kick to horse or human can be fatal – I take it very seriously. Group rides can be so problematic and I’m very fussy who I ride with. I will do group rides if they are well organised and have clear rules. There are various acquaintances I’ve been out with once and once only due to their poor manners – no control, no consideration of others, not riding to the ability of the greenest member (horse or human).

As a rider you are responsible for keeping your horse under your control at all times – maintaining a safe following distance etc. But IMO if you ride a horse that kicks then you are doubly responsible for keeping others safe. Unfortunately you cannot rely on other riders to use their brains & ride carefully all the time. This may mean that you limit where and who you ride with – ie always at the back of the group, pulling over and let others pass safely, choosing to ride with people who are switched on and in control etc.

If a kick does happen then it must be punished immediately and very firmly.

I have had two mares as field hunters. I rode both with red ribbons and was very careful about where & how I rode them in the field – keeping them at the back of the group, out of the way at checks, turning them to face other horses - but still both kicked out and made contact once each. The bay mare was when someone used her as a stopping aid - she was halted off to the side, with her quarters turned away! (I will never forget the conversation the master had with that rider!). The chestnut mare was on the last hunt of her first season, I had her parked well off to the side of the group, was watching the hounds work and some woman decided squeeze between her and the fence behind her. It remains a baffling mystery to me why she did that – there was a whole open field in front of us . . . but it was not unusual for me to find my own space and immediately have someone ride right up behind us . . .

Now it’s one of my horse shopping must haves – a horse that is ok with other horses being really close – just because you can’t control other riders.

I love my super tolerant gelding – though even the most tolerant horses can still have a bad moment -he kicked out at my friend’s horse one day (luckily got her stirrup iron). He hasn’t lifted a hoof at horse, hound or human before or since (fingers crossed it never happens again!)

[Guilherme]

We had a Marchador mare that didn’t like Quarter Horses. On a ride she went out of her way to get close to a QH and kick it. My wife was riding and was caught completely unaware. She quickly move away, and ended up next to a couple of TBs. She was good as gold. A few minutes later the group split and she ended up with a smaller group that was about half QH and the rest mixed breed. The mare immediately tried to approach a QH with that “look.” This time my wife was ready and when the mare started to make her move got two spurs in her side HARD and was forcefully moved away. A couple of days later she actually tried again; but my wife was again ready and the correction was quite severe. We never had the problem again, with QHs or anything else, but when we sold her to some folks in CA I advised them of this “quirk.”

A quiet, well trained horse will not generally cause a problem like this. But that quiet, well trained Marchador proves that the general rule has exceptions.

What to do if a couple of horses and riders are into a physical altercation? Stand clear until the dust settles. Unless, of course, your name is Branaman or Lyons or something like that. The average rider should just keep clear so that there are no more injuries than to the four combatants.

Don’t ride with known, aggressive horses and/or riders. This is one time when being judgmental and, indeed out and out discriminatory, is a Good Idea.

When out with riders of lower skill levels the more experienced folks should make tactful suggesting on place in line. If a rider is having trouble then offer assistance. Sometimes you get a green rider on a green horse. We all know what the usual outcome of THAT is. So be a Good Samaritan and try to head off obvious difficulties. If the greenie rider is full of themselves and won’t cooperate then exclude them from the group. An clueless newbie can be even more dangerous than an aggressive rider.

It really sux when this happens but it sometimes does. Exercise good judgement and protect your self and your horse.

G.

[Palm_Beach]

OK G, did she question the QHs on their lineage or something???

[walkers]

Just to present the other side i have ridden a gelding that would kick sometimes so I always rode him with Bright Red Ribbon tied to his tail. Many riders paid no attention to the ribbon. I tried to ride in the rear of the group but on a few rides I’d feel my horse tense and there was often some fool ,usually talking away ,paying no attention and riding up on our butts. How is that my fault when my horse kicks out.
I understand the danger as I still have knee pain from 20 years ago when I got kicked in the knee while riding next to another horse. I am very careful passing and never trust anyones horse not to kick.

Important point is we should ride like we should drive, defensively. I never get within kicking range and go off trail when riders aproach or pass no matter how much them reassure me their horse never kicks.
Never ride up on another horses rear, I have seen a horse go down when stepped on by the horse behind and the rider did get hurt.

So the best advice is ride defensively, stay out of kicking range and be careful with whom you choose to ride.