Ring Sour Jumper... Help?

[tellingnotales]

So I recently (five months ago) bought a gorgeous 11yo Hanoverian mare under the guidance of my trainer. I am a capable jumper rider with 18 years of riding experince under my belt and have ridden my fair share of ‘challenging’ horses. We knew going into it that she was going to be a project…:lol: She is a known horse that has bounced around from barn to barn in our area. Originally she had come from Virginia, where she had fox hunted and dabbled in eventing. She was bought as a hunter prospect and brought north. After two different trainers failed to make her do the hunters she was sold to an event barn. Apperently she excelled in the cross country, and was ok at the show jumping but compleatly shut down in the dressage ring. Thus she was sould again to a jumper sales farm where she was compained in the amature and childrens jumpers with various riders until she was bought by a kid. Said kid ended up becoming scared of her and sold her to me… She is the total visual package… Short back, low hocks, round topline, with the hind end like a cannon. She has one of the most powerful jumps I’ve ever ridden (has to jump EVERYTHING even crossrails with a belly guard because shes so tight with her knees), shes so scoppey and wicked quick across the fence with a huge ground covering stride.:yes: This is all great, and she has a wicked sweet personality to boot! But shes a FREAK in the ring. I mean total spaz. And her behavior always changing. :eek: I knew she was a hot oppinonated mare but this is getting a bit extreme. One day we can have a great ride, the next she’s bolting for no apperent reason. Or rearing… Like REARING! Not just hopping up, she’s gone over backwards. Bucking, spinning or doing both while bolting sideways… Not to mention she’s a constant head flipper. Even on the good days, She’s the same way to the fences too… She can be perfect over fences one day then the next shes stopping six strides out, running out, or conversely, rushing madly at the fences. The bad days are starting to far outnumber the good… The crazy thing is that as soon as we leave the ring the behavior totaly stops. She is the easist, bravest, quietest thing to ride out, alone or in a group. She will jump anything out, sans behavior and I’ve even fox hunted her. Anyway I’ve had just about everthing I can think of checked on her… Teeth, bits, feet, back, chiro, saddle fit, hocks, and various blood work etc.:no:All has come back clean. So the behavior seems to just be her being Ring Sour to the extreme. My trainer is pretty much at his wits end and wants me to just sell her to a fox hunting person, and I’m honestly considering it. Anyway I was just wondering if there is anyone out there with any experince with dealing with this radical of ring sour behavior or any has any helpful hints… Maybe someone sees something that I may have missed. The truth is that I love this mare and will do what ever I can to make her comfortable and work through this behavior just as long as it doesn’t get either of us hurt. I’m also aware that for her to be happy I may just need to find her a fox hunting home. Open to anyone’s opinion as I’ve run out of ideas to try.

Thanks for reading my novel and Merry Christmas!

[JumpsJumps]

Did you have any neurological testing done? A horse that one day takes you to the jumps and the next comes out of the corner stopping or rears and flips over sounds like there may be something misfiring…not necessarily a pain or training issue. I know of a couple horses who have some similar symptoms and one had a suspensory issue and the other had lymes disease. Wishing you the best

[paw]

Maybe you need to take up foxhunting?

Sounds like she got fried in the ring at some point - bringing her back is going to be a long-term project. Does height matter? Does it happen at home, or just at shows? Is being in the ring, or jumping in the ring? If the former, working long and low, eventually over poles, then caveletti, might help.

She’s bounced around through lots of folks - there’s a reason. You’ve only had her 5 months, so now you’re finding out why. Sounds like it might be a trust issue on her part, assuming you can’t find anything physical. If you’re in it for the long run, sounds like it’s time to go back to the beginning with her.

Good luck!

[HealingHeart]

How’s the eyes? Like head aches…

[tellingnotales]

She has had both a neuro exam and has been tested for lyme… They found nothing. I am considering having a more indepth diognostic scanning done once I’ve payed off her last rounds of testing. All behavior stops as soon as I leave the ring however so I’m having a hard time thinking anything neuro is solely behind this, but I plan to investigate further.

I too have seen various neuro horses with erratic and dangerous behaviors. My best and wierdest example is when I had another jumper projepect come in on training with a wicked rear that had no triggers and no known cause. She ended up having a form head shakers. Poor girl! Fortuntly a weighted nose net and some antihistamines (her’s was eventually found to be triggered by pollen and dust allergies) made her MUCH more comfortable and able to preform safely.

I agree that I think a ton of this behavior may just be from being fried. She’s only 11 and has had seven different owners! Height nor filler matters when she’s having a good or bad day. When shes on she’ll jump anything, when shes off I can’t even get her to trot a trot poll. I schooled her around 4’9" at the farm she was boarded at when I bought her and I’ve shown her in the 3’9" jumpers without issue.

Then there are days that I try to LEAD her to the ring and she is standing up… Like magic, the next day she’ll happily hack around without issue. Idk maybe I just bought a horse with bipolor disorder. The only time she is consistant is out of the ring, where she is consistantly good.

Unfortunatly, I live in Maine, even though we’re having a mild winter so far our footing is frozen and I’ve been forced to work in the indoor which has seemed to intensify the behavior. Her behavior was much less radical this summer and fall, which I think is mostly due to the fact that I hacked her out of the ring at least three days a week.

I’m all for going back to basics. I haven’t jumped her saince the end of October and have just been trying to get along with her and make her chill out in the ring. Walking, just walking is fine by me as long as she’s not having a meltdown.

[BostonHJ]

Has she been scoped or treated for ulcers? Or possible repro area pain?

[tellingnotales]

She has been scoped for ulcers by her previous ower just before I purchesed her and they found nothing. I am going to have her scoped again when I can afford it, but other then the behavior she doesn’t have any of the classic ulcer symptoms. She’s not girthy ever, nor is she colicly or ever off her feed and she hasn’t lost any condition. But I do plan to check again!

As for repro issues, I haven’t done much investigation that way. She had been on Regumate with her previous owner during the summer because they had four stallions on the property and showing with them and she was always going into raging heast. When the boys left for Florida or wherever in the winter she came off of it. Apperently her ground behavior, not her under saddle work took a turn for the worse when she was in full heat. She got pushy and opinionated on the ground, which is just not her way. She is one of the easiest mares I’ve ever worked around in the barn. She’s the kind of mare that one would never even think of using a chain shank on, it would just offend her. And a leather halter nose is more then enough control for doing anytihg on the ground with her.

Anyway I took her off of the regumate when I bought her as we only have one elderly and happily retired studmuffin on the property (He’s a 32yo Hano) who all the girls completly ignore, including her. She came into regular heats four times since I bought her and her behavior hasn’t changed a bit (good or bad) during it.

[Elouise]

My guess is something physical is going on. And you know what- you may or may not be able to find it. And if you find it, you may or may not be able to fix it.

I had one that developed sore hamstrings after jumping. Another, sore feet. In both cases, vets told me there was nothing wrong with them. Have you tried some NSAIDS before and after to see if this changes the behavior? Have you tried some stomach soothers? I know of another one that is currently being treated for EPM that has bad behavior even though is doesn’t have any symptoms except a high exposure. Have you tried a REALLY good Chiropractor? It could be neck pinching that gets worse if they are tense.

There are a zillion things it could be, you may never find out what it is. If your willing, keep a journal and try changing things for a bit and see if you can eliminate or find similarities on when the bad behavior exhibits itself. And you know what-there are some horses that just don’t like rings. (Is it the footing? Does it make their feet sting? Or perhaps it is performance anxiety?)

Good luck!

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=tellingnotales;7925571]
So I recently (five months ago) bought a gorgeous 11yo Hanoverian mare under the guidance of my trainer. I am a capable jumper rider with 18 years of riding experince under my belt and have ridden my fair share of ‘challenging’ horses. We knew going into it that she was going to be a project…:lol: She is a known horse that has bounced around from barn to barn in our area. Originally she had come from Virginia, where she had fox hunted and dabbled in eventing. She was bought as a hunter prospect and brought north. After two different trainers failed to make her do the hunters she was sold to an event barn. Apperently she excelled in the cross country, and was ok at the show jumping but compleatly shut down in the dressage ring. Thus she was sould again to a jumper sales farm where she was compained in the amature and childrens jumpers with various riders until she was bought by a kid. Said kid ended up becoming scared of her and sold her to me… She is the total visual package… Short back, low hocks, round topline, with the hind end like a cannon. She has one of the most powerful jumps I’ve ever ridden (has to jump EVERYTHING even crossrails with a belly guard because shes so tight with her knees), shes so scoppey and wicked quick across the fence with a huge ground covering stride.:yes: This is all great, and she has a wicked sweet personality to boot! But shes a FREAK in the ring. I mean total spaz. And her behavior always changing. :eek: I knew she was a hot oppinonated mare but this is getting a bit extreme. One day we can have a great ride, the next she’s bolting for no apperent reason. Or rearing… Like REARING! Not just hopping up, she’s gone over backwards. Bucking, spinning or doing both while bolting sideways… Not to mention she’s a constant head flipper. Even on the good days, She’s the same way to the fences too… She can be perfect over fences one day then the next shes stopping six strides out, running out, or conversely, rushing madly at the fences. The bad days are starting to far outnumber the good… The crazy thing is that as soon as we leave the ring the behavior totaly stops. She is the easist, bravest, quietest thing to ride out, alone or in a group. She will jump anything out, sans behavior and I’ve even fox hunted her. Anyway I’ve had just about everthing I can think of checked on her… Teeth, bits, feet, back, chiro, saddle fit, hocks, and various blood work etc.:no:All has come back clean. So the behavior seems to just be her being Ring Sour to the extreme. My trainer is pretty much at his wits end and wants me to just sell her to a fox hunting person, and I’m honestly considering it. Anyway I was just wondering if there is anyone out there with any experince with dealing with this radical of ring sour behavior or any has any helpful hints… Maybe someone sees something that I may have missed. The truth is that I love this mare and will do what ever I can to make her comfortable and work through this behavior just as long as it doesn’t get either of us hurt. I’m also aware that for her to be happy I may just need to find her a fox hunting home. Open to anyone’s opinion as I’ve run out of ideas to try.

Thanks for reading my novel and Merry Christmas![/QUOTE]

Maybe you should take up fox hunting!

She sounds like a brave, great jumper. That could be useful in the hunt world. When I worked for Red Rock Hounds, we got TONS and I mean TONS of ring sour big show jumpers to hunt for a few seasons. After hunting, some went back to the ring and went on to be better. Some still couldn’t handle the ring and were happier fox hunting.

I would take time off from the ring. Just leave it alone, hack outside and forget concentrating on the ring. Try it for MONTHS or even a year. Fox Hunt and let her be a fun, firey, hunt horse. You will probably TOTALLY fall in love with it too.

If everything is checking out vet wise, then maybe she just needs a break or doesn’t want to play ring horse anymore. You just need to find her niche.

It took mine multiple years and multiple owners and careers to figure out he wanted to be a jumper, instead of a rope horse, pick-up horse, or bucking horse!

[Flash44]

All her prior owners taught her that she can do whatever she wants whenever she wants, so she does. And if she doesn’t feel like doing something, she can pitch a fit and she does not have to do it. She is dangerous to ride if she is flipping over, and she is going to hurt someone, hopefully not you. There is a reason she’s had so many owners. If you feel like committing to a groundwork program that teaches respect and cooperation, you can probably fix most of this behavior. She is picking and choosing what she wants to do at this point, why keep indulging her? Good luck and stay safe.

[Dinah-do]

Why not indulge her? A happy hunt horse is always going to be better competitor than a unhappy jumper. Just because YOU want her to jump doesn’t mean your horse will be a jumper. Sometimes the horse just wont play…She is messed up and for what ever reasons is messed up. C’est la vie.

[ChristinaClarLuisa]

Sounds like good advice to let the jumping go for a while (which it sounds like you’ve done.)

I’m not as experienced as the posters above, but can add that we have one ex-big-jumper in our barn that behaves in somewhat similar ways. Lovely. lovely horse. Storybook beautiful, big and perfectly conformed, sweet to handle, gaits to die for and can jump a house.

When he showed up a couple of years ago, crazy as a bed bug in the ring–and if you pointed him at a jump, you were in for a verywild ride. As OP describes–bolting, running out, stopping, jumping straight up in the air (that thing would courbette, no lie!) and frequently flinging himself around so much in canter that he would arrive at the jump sideways at a dead halt–and still get over somehow. No medical issues found. Unfortunately, unlike OP’s horse he was NOT calmer going over a country…

His owner really loved the horse and was committed to trying to jump with him, even if that meant going back to the beginning and starting over. So that’s what she did–trainer essentially restarted him under saddle, and spent almost a year doing nothing but flatwork (as in, mostly walk!) until he could hold it together a bit better. Then a few crossrails. Now he is doing little courses with his owner, and is mostly calm–but if he gets anxious it’s back to flatwork and single crossrails for a while.

His owner doesn’t know if he will ever take a big fence again, but she is persisting. I admire both her bravery and her devotion to the horse–she’s a fine rider and could have easily ditched this one and gone to the big shows with something else.

[2enduraceriders]

We took on a horse almost as bad. He was just freaked over a rider. Had to pretty much just sit on him through whatever he did and not touch the reins. I played passenger for a number of rides then had to be sure to NEVER make contact with both reins. Started asking for slight bends and if we went forward find if not fine. Was just looking for the give and relaxed while I was sitting there. Finally started to ask for forward with no contact. Then one rein only directing. We did that for months. When we sold him he was very willing forward and doing 3rd level work with a very light contact. It was over a year before I ever touched both reins at the same time.

[Mac123]

My thought would be that sometimes we can spend too much money on diagnostics. Tests & science can only go so far - and a lot of times, the tests are wrong or they say that there isn’t a problem when there is, or vets don’t see something, or a stoic horse doesn’t present as lame/sore when it is in pain.

Hind-gut ulcers do not show on a scope. The first thing I would do is treat her for ulcers. I would not use Gastroguard, though. I would use the Gastro Plus Pro by Equine Science Solutions. Their products literally work wonders and are natural.

I would probably do an NSAID test and see if anything is different when she’s on a course of NSAIDs for a week. I would be inclined to use banamine or Equioxx rather than bute due to its gastro effects. I would also maybe try robaxin in case of muscle issues.

I’d try chiro/acupuncture too.

I would possibly let her just have some time off in the winter.

I would also consider doing a lot of groundwork with her, unmounted, especially when she’s naughty. Capture her mind, give her something to think about, make her work, but see if doing it from the ground can break the cycle.

You also need to determine if something is wrong and that’s why her behavior vacillates or if she’s just trying to get out of work by being bad. If the latter, she needs to not get away with it.

I’d also look at her diet and play with that. A lot can be accomplished with correct diet and supplements. Try a magnesium supplement - if she’s deficient, it’ll help pretty quickly.

Just a few ideas…hope something helps!

[CHT]

Have you thought about doing something completely different in the arena to see if you can make her happy in the arena again? We have a giant soccer ball to play with in the spring when the horses (and riders) are starting to get bored in the arena. Or try western, or trail, or ground work. Something different enough that you may be able to avoid her triggers.

What about just hand walking her in the arena and doing carrot stretches or other fun in hand things? Just work on re-programming her negative association with the arena.

Have you tried any sort of calming supplement to also see if you can help her overcome her arena anxiety?

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=Dinah-do;7926150]
Why not indulge her? A happy hunt horse is always going to be better competitor than a unhappy jumper. Just because YOU want her to jump doesn’t mean your horse will be a jumper. Sometimes the horse just wont play…She is messed up and for what ever reasons is messed up. C’est la vie.[/QUOTE]

Because what if one day she decides she doesn’t want to go x-country either? Allowing a horse t option to pitch a total fit when it doesn’t want to work is not a great idea. I do agree with taking time off, and restarting her.

I also agree that people can fall into the diagnostics trap. What medical problem manifests only in the ring, and never when hacking/jumping outside?

[cbiscuit9]

Consider testing for polysaccharide storage myopathy type 2. The test is invasive (muscle biopsy), but this disorder could be responsible for a lot of your problems. It causes generalized muscle soreness, and very mild episodes of tying up. These horses will have good days and bad days. Typically will get worse with rest (even a day or two off, but the good days and bad days are very independent of this). It’s managed with dietary changes and exercise.

PM if you would like some more info.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Coanteen;7926468]
Because what if one day she decides she doesn’t want to go x-country either? Allowing a horse t option to pitch a total fit when it doesn’t want to work is not a great idea. I do agree with taking time off, and restarting her.

I also agree that people can fall into the diagnostics trap. What medical problem manifests only in the ring, and never when hacking/jumping outside?[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly, but why waste time just avoiding the problem? Why not just retrain her in a safe and effective way, so that she becomes a calm, willing, trusting partner? I’m not the one working with the horse or paying bills with the horse, but the last “training technique” I would use is avoidance + finger crossing. Even foxhunters school in the ring sometimes, so tolerating this type of behavior or just hoping it will go away if you don’t go in the ring for a while won’t help sell her. Plus, OP loves the horse. I wouldn’t waste time and money just letting the horse sit, I’d get to work on her immediately.

[SendenHorse]

do you do exctly the same thing outside as inside?

Can you work her outside “hard” and “Play” inside to see if there is any change?

[Equitational]

Is she turned out? Did you give her any down time when you first bought her?

My friend acquired a problematic gelding who was very sour under saddle (although talented jumper). He had been imported and kept a an elite barn in Orange County where they didn’t do any turn out. She took him home and turned him out for two months. She sedated him the first time she rode him at home and has sense had no problems. She turned him into a dressage horse and is schooling Grand Prix (back in OC I guess they had to sedate him before each ride). She has access to miles of trails and the horses live out 24/7.

Some horses need a lot more turnout then others. Maybe give her some down time this winter and start her when the weather gets better. Maybe try riding every other day, and making sure there is hacks or trail rides after the hard training/jumping days.