I get what you are saying. When I was in school in the 70’s, our teachers hugged us. It was great. Now a teacher won’t even put a hand on a students shoulder. It’s just a sad commentary on today’s society.
How is it a sad commentary on today’s society. Children were being molested and abused back in the 70’s as well. It would be a sad commentary if we neglected to take measures to prevent abuse and let creepy teachers hug students.
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The part that absolutely 100% necessitates complete privacy between you and your trainer.
It was invaluable to me as a jr. Do you really think trainers in huge barns like Heritage for example who take 75-80 horses to a show have time to make sure every single safesport i is dotted and t is crossed?
Full disclosure: I have never worked at a barn that took 75-80 horses to a show. But I’m not some country bumpkin who hasn’t been around.
But especially in your example of a huge show barn, I’m failing to see the inconvenience. Can you explain exactly which policies are so hard to follow? Why would a massive show barn have a hard time making sure adults aren’t in uninterruptible, private situations with minors? Why would a massive show barn have a hard time making sure adults aren’t engaging in extended private message exchanges with minors? There would be enough people around that it’s a non-issue.
Additionally, there is no “SafeSport Police.” If a trainer accidentally privately messages their student, or ends up alone with their student, no one is going to show up at the barn to “ban” them on the spot. If you’re conducting an honest business, the likelihood that you would end up in trouble over minute policies is slim.
The answer is they don’t which means they will hire employees and the days of the working student (and therefore the days of amazing yet maybe less financially well-positioned riders) are slowly fading into the darkness. Look, I ride with a BNT. It has already been discussed: no more working students, and no more giving a ride to a pony kid to the vet or the feed store etc to let them see other parts of the horse business. It’s a shame.
If barns are so scared of SafeSport that they think the only way to avoid a SafeSport infraction is to avoid all minors, that is foolish. Many of them are just not taking the time to review the actual policies-- they are only reading the headlines, listening to the scuttlebutt spread through gossip and social media, and basing their decisions on misinformation.
This is an area where I think USEF does need to step in to improve SafeSport for equestrians. The online training doesn’t really address how SafeSport compliance looks in specific sports. I would love to see USEF create easily accessible information on how to conduct your training business in a manner that is in accordance with SafeSport. I can think of a few ways they could effectively do so and reach the majority of their members.
I also do strongly believe a small percentage of barns who are freaking out over SafeSport are doing so out of guilt-- they KNOW something, or have engaged in something themselves, and know it is just a matter of time before they are caught. Instead of admitting to your clients and supporters that you are guilty of questionable behavior, it’s a whole lot easier to make a lot of noise against it.
I see a need for SafeSport. I just don’t agree with how it is being implemented. I also think a lot of people in this thread aren’t dealing with huge AA show barns or know how they function and operate. I can see how these guidelines would be much simpler to implement at the C show or smaller barn level. Go ahead and come at me with your guns ablazing for saying that … seems to always happen when that subject is mentioned. But to be frank I believe that is why the disconnect among the crowd on here vs Facebook … those trainers you all are reading on Facebook are concerned about the practicality of SS and its implications for current working students and pony kids in a big show barn setting. That’s my point of view too.
Again, I’m no country bumpkin. I was fully immersed in top A barns as a junior and into college. I was a live-in working student for two summers when I was 15 and 16, granted not at a top barn. I was a working student with several AA show barns from 17 into my first two years of college. I lost interest in the hunters in college, but I remained active in the professional horse industry for several years after college. But my resume is irrelevant. I am currently employed in an industry where I work with minors day in day out, and I feel that is FAR more relevant to the conversation than my show record. I live the life SafeSport is proposing and it is 100% honestly no big deal.
When I was a live-in working student as a minor, the barn was just a busy riding school who did local stuff. They had a program specifically for teenage working students, which is what attracted me-- live away from home, be immersed in the industry, etc. This was back in the 1990s. I’m not going to pretend it was exactly the same as being at a massive AA barn, because it wasn’t… yet at the same time, not all that much was different in terms of responsibility. They had what I thought was the dumbest rule at the time: there were four of us young working students and we had to follow the “buddy system.” We were never allowed to be in the barn alone without at least one other working student. We didn’t need to be in the same place or anything-- one of us could be mucking, the other could be turning out horses or riding. It also applied to shows, or even going out in the evening if by some miracle we had time to do so. Our trainer (a woman) was a real stickler for it. We thought it was SO stupid. Looking back, it was really progressive… I fail to see how even the busiest of barns couldn’t employ similar. It’s not like it took any time at all for our trainer to enforce it… she pretty much only had to threaten us once that if we couldn’t follow the rule, we didn’t need to be there.
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When I went to shows as a teen with a big program without a parent (I could drive my own trailer starting at 16), we would often have either a condo with a parent or two in their own rooms or groups of students would have a hotel room together. That has it’s own down sides, but in any event, those barns with the most desirable working student positions definitely can comply with the SS requirements. And when I was younger than driving age, there was always another adult around on the trips that my parents didn’t come on, whether it was adult clients, trainer’s spouse, someone else’s parent(s), or the barn managers.
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And yet they have time to make sure every hoof is polished before it goes into the ring. They have the time to make sure every horse is freshly braided every day. They have time to make sure the special horses get their particular program for warmup.
Horsemen have plenty of time for details. Every one of them will tell you it’s how you win.
The annoyance is because protecting humans from abuse is not a priority. These practices will also help protect professionals from misunderstandings and false accusations.
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I’ve spent most of this work week cataloging every violation that resulted in “Permanent Ineligibility” that was not under “Criminal Disposition - Sexual Misconduct” or “Criminal Disposition - Involving a Minor”. So far, my search has found:
- An athlete who was arrested and charged with felony sexual battery and false imprisonment (the criminal charges were ultimately dismissed, however).
- A coach whose former athlete was granted a permanent restraining order against them due to sexual harassment and stalking (the evidence included over 15,000 text messages)
- A coach who purchased his then 14 year old student lingerie and exchanged sexual messages with them over SnapChat (this coach was sentenced to 3 years probation for the incident after a plea deal).
- A coach who was accused of raping an underage student, tried in criminal court and acquitted in 2005. When another student came forward with similar allegations, the coach was arrested and charged again, however, the charges were ultimately dismissed. The reason - the former student died of an apparent overdose two months prior to testifying.
The reason I bring this up is because I feel like some of the apprehension around the SafeSport recommendations come from fear of SafeSport itself. You’re not getting suspended for hugging a student after they win a competition. You’re not getting banned for life for accidentally texting a 16 year old “good morning” without another adult in the chat. In reality, these guidelines provide protection for all covered individuals - coaches and athletes alike.
Also, as several of you have already stated, these recommended guidelines did not come out of thin air. Other institutions, especially in education, follow the same guidelines.
Honestly, I’m also a bit confused by the push back against the recommendations since my job has much stricter guidelines than SafeSport (granted, considering the nature of my profession, this makes a lot of sense).
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One more thing on the sadness of underage students not getting working student positions, which I agree can be valuable, exciting opportunities:
The twenty year history of this board is FULL of whispernet about abusive situations young students have found themselves in, sexual and otherwise. It’s shockingly common for those experiences not to go well. It’s long past time to do better.
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I know I am just one of many thinking this, but <note sarcasm> isn’t it amazing how the majority of us that are employed outside of the horse industry manage to work within the rules and guidelines set forth with regard to sexual harassment and do just fine?
I received a work email last week notifying me of new sexual harassment training that I needed to take within the upcoming month. The email stated:
“There is new [US] legislation that now requires employers to provide harassment training by October 1, 2019 and on an annual basis thereafter.”
How come the “A show” trainers in the horse world think they are above this, or that this type of training or the enforcement offered by Safe Sport is an impediment to business? And how come their followers and supporters think the world is coming to an end because of Safe Sport?
Do you really think the horse industry gets a pass on behaving like a “real business” in the “real world”?
Those whining about how there will be no more working students need to realize that the professionals that want to offer this service will make it happen legally. And if some trainers stop offering it, it’s time for people to grow up and realize that there are a lot worse things in the world than not having the opportunity to be a working student.
Are people really so shallow and selfish that they are willing to put minors at risk in order to pursue a working student stint that might win them a ribbon that means nothing in the grand scheme of things? Apparently, in the horse world, the answer is yes.
I realize that this single-mindedness towards winning (and “invaluable experiences”) happens in many sports, but I have very little patience for elite sports and the difficulties faced by those involved in them. Didn’t get to go to a horse show? Yeah, not the end of the world. Being sexually assaulted as a minor or adult? Yes, that’s something to be concerned about.
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Thanks for your time in digging out those cases!
As to this question, I think it’s because horsemen are used to existing and acting completely independently without any oversight. Even regular labor laws often don’t apply due to ag exemptions. There’s no common training or mandatory certification of any kind in equestrian, and that can lead to some very curious notions of what constitutes ethical and professional behavior.
This is not to diss horsemen particularly or to say that anyone is a bad person; only that in almost every other sport there’s some sort of common curriculum or program that people go through, especially with most other sports having either a strong college system or a facility affiliation where they are interacting with many professionals.
In figure skating, for example, you don’t generally see the owner/manager of the rink also being the sole coach.
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Touch is a human need.
That I think is part of the problem in the discussion. People are reacting to statements like yours as meaning any one who hugs a student for whatever reason is a creep. Sure there are plenty of creepy hugs but consoling a child who has lost a horse or a friend or is hurt is not creepy.
Typical all or none reactions to a statement that may not mean what the reader thinks and over thinking statements and their meanings too.
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I get that. However if teachers can’t hug students anymore to prevent the creepy teacher from getting off on it then so be it. I did not mean teachers who hug students are creepy.
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I hug my students on occasion. I think most teachers do. But it’s reserved for exceptional moments, good or bad. I wouldn’t make a habit of hugging students regularly or in private. I also try to use language like “can I give you a hug?”
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Exactly. I was just pointing out that people tend to take messages on a message board as so black and white.
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I will just point out that sometimes a ribbon might mean a lot under certain circumstances. If a talented, hard-working, dedicated rider of limited financial means manages to win the finals due to a working student position, that can be a springboard to a lot more opportunities in the horse world. Obviously that does not mean minors should be at risk, but that ribbon can mean a lot in the grand scheme of things to that rider.
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Yeah, my just-finished-kindergartener gets and gives hugs at school all the time. The teacher’s aid told me he gives the best hugs, so it’s not a secret or against policy. And like Texarkana, part of it is asking because agency over your own body and consent are really important.
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There are also scholarships. Not just NCAA (which for the most part seem to be those who may not be hurting for the next dollar) but schools offer scholarships for IHSA riders as well. College is expensive and being able to have core classes paid because of a partial scholarship for IHSA can be a big advantage. Of course most working students do want to pursue a profession in the horse industry but not all. The working student moniker can mean so many different things. And yes it can mean slave labor and often does.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹We need to get rid of those who have the “I paid my dues you must pay yours” mentality and those who want slave labor. And of course the sexual abusers.
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On that subject, I know of a very good rider of modest means who got a full scholarship to an excellent school as a member of their NCAA team. That was shortly after she won an equitation final. So yes, that one ribbon can make a huge difference in someone’s life.
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And what do you think sexual abuse does to a person? Working students can still be a thing. Instead of throwing up their arms and exclaiming against SS and their “inconvenient” rules (which are in place to protect minors AND adults…) maybe they could sit down and come up with ways to be compliant instead of freaking out that they are going to get falsely accused (or not falsely accused because they have done things they shouldn’t have) and do what literally every other sport involving minors does.
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There is a thread started about this. But I don’t see talking about the benefits of working students besides winning to be anti- safesport.
Thank you.
I was addressing the idea stated in an earlier post that a working student “might win a ribbon that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.” Sometimes the ribbon can mean a lot. That fact does not downplay the relevance of Safe Sport.
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