I agree with you.
EEOC defines harassment as
EEOC also recommends:
So a successful harassment claim often, but not always, includes the harasser being told that the behaviour is unwelcome.
The idea that just because you received an unwelcome hug means you’ve been harassed is extreme and only supportable based on the individual circumstances.
This is useful input into a rational conversation about MAAP. But I have no sympathy with the claim that it is burdensome to have your text conversation with your trainer have Mom included as a third party. Doing so is absolutely costless.
If you receive unwelcome hugs from your boss, and don’t feel empowered enough to say, “Gee, boss, I know you mean well, but the hugging makes me uncomfortable”, you can go to HR (or the office of sexual harassment prevention, if they have one) and ask them to convey your preferences.
Note that the statement “Gee, boss, I know you mean well, but the hugging makes me uncomfortable” also works if you are in fact unclear about his intentions. He has been put on notice that the touching is unwelcome.
Again, I agree that’s the right course of action. But I have empathy for someone who would be afraid of retaliation. Bc your boss will immediately know who reported him. I say this as someone who works in finance and am usually the only woman in the room. I totally understand why someone in a police force would feel uncomfortable reporting him or saying something to his face. Especially ten years ago.
The power dynamics are difficult and at the end of the day, I think bosses should not be hugging subordinates regularly. Just don’t touch people at work. What is the problem here? It’s not professional.
I also think trainers shouldn’t be hugging their students regularly. I think the relationship we have with our trainers is really complicated bc often times they are not just trainers, but they take on the roles of friend and therapist and unfortunately in some cases child care giver. I think that’s why we have all these threads asking what to do when you have to leave a trainer. The waters have gotten really muddy. I love my new trainer for example, but I don’t think I need to be hugging on her just bc I’m finally making progress on my position. I didn’t want a hug when I fell off at a show. If something absolutely terrible happened to her, yeah, maybe I would ask her for a hug. But nothing regular.
Fundamentally, this is a business relationship and just as I do not hug my clients at work, I don’t think trainers should either. In unusual circumstances, sure. But I don’t think we lose anything in the sport if we encourage people to keep their hands to themselves.
I agree.
At a recent show, my student’s pony had an uncharacteristic moment and the child fell off. I realized quickly that despite jumping up to run up her stirrups, the child had the wind knocked out of her. I gently put my hands on her shoulders, looked her in the eye, and calmly told her to put her hands on her head and take deep breathes. I then put an arm around her and escorted her from the ring, telling her it would be ok and we would formulate a plan.
Once I left the ring, I gave the kid a huge hug and she cried on my shoulder. But it’s worth nothing, she is my daughter.
And in fact, this is precisely why I try to get her in the ring with other trainers as much as possible…it lets me just be mom for a change. I can hug her, wipe away tears, jump for joy, video rounds, take pictures, and be all the warm fuzzy support while the trainer can be the tough demanding coach. I don’t need them to hug her…that’s my job.
So if I am capable of differentiating giving comfort in a professional manner while in “trainer mode” and then giving more intimate support while in “mom mode”, surely trainers can figure it out with their non-biological students.
I agree that what you did in trainer mode is gold standard best practice and is what trainers should aspire to.
At the same time, I don’t think that if a trainer departs from the gold standard best practice and gives the child an innocent hug, they should live in fear that someone will report them to SafeSport.
Again, I think there is a space between best practice and what will get you in trouble with SafeSport, and I think some people (not you, necessarily) are trying to claim that even an innocent hug could trigger a SafeSport sanction. I consider such claims as unsupported and, in some cases, as attempts to make SafeSport look ridiculous.
Bolding is mine and what I want to address.
You’ve framed the hugging as harassment and talk about ‘reporting’ the boss. Um, talking to HR isn’t always about reporting. It’s often a conversation to help an employee deal with a situation. HR really isn’t there to do all the dirty work as many people think.
One of the first things HR is going to ask after they have enough details to understand if there needs to be an investigation or if it’s an innocent case of a hugger and a non-hugger. is ‘have you told him the hugging makes you uncomfortable.’ If the employee says no, HR is going to ask if they would feel comfortable telling the boss and then would help them build the conversation.
Touch is not wrong. Unwanted touch is…but the unwelcome nature of the touch needs to be understood. It’s not wrong to ask your co-worker on a date (unless there are fraternization issues). It’s wrong to ask again if they say no.
How this applies to riding/coaches and children…the situation that @englishivy posted above is perfect. Even the hug is fine as coach. You can ask a child if they need or would like a hug. Let them be the guide.
I completely agree with this. HR is there to attempt to create non threatening communication that resolves the issue by informing the hugger that the hugging is unwelcome and thus avoid years of tension and lawsuits. Unless the boss is a complete moron, he will realize that receiving the clarification that the hugs are unwelcome is far better -for him- than being left in ignorance then being fired or hit with a lawsuit.
And you will not convince me, an adult amateur USEF member who is not in a “position of power” and does not have any sort of business relationship with the parents of minor riders, that it is reasonable and in no way burdensome to be expected to include the 17-year-old working student’s parents, whom I’ve barely even met, in the message when I send her the video she asked me to get of her round at a horse show.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
But you don’t have to include the working students parents. You just have to include another adult, which could be another border at the barn, the assistant trainer, or even the trainer her/himself.
Just include another adult so that there’s no potential for a misunderstanding. It’s awkward at first but I’m getting used to it.
About the recent op-ed from a 17 year old hunter jumper rider speaking out against MAAP and Safe Sport guidelines… I have a few thoughts. I tried to post earlier, but the forums ate my posts because of the link to the article. Uggh.
So here we go. I want to know what, if any, fact checking was done prior to publishing this op ed? Because I see a few red flags.
REALLY? An engineering class for 15 year olds offered in a high school? Did anyone fact check that? Because that doesn’t jive with what many of us know about real world academic options for 15 year olds. Even classes involving advanced math and science. Or engineering classes (which are offered in COLLEGE, not high school, and almost always require an established foundation in terms of calculus… which even gifted 15 year olds typically don’t yet have ).
Yet she was “forced to drop the class.”
Uh - was there any fact checking on that whole story? Because a high school counselor is a mandatory reporter. Denying a female an educational opportunity because of a hostile educational environment is a legal issue. It’s covered by Title IX in terms of institutions of higher learning in our country. I’m not sure what laws cover high school students… but I don’t think it’s legal to “force” this girl to “drop” the class.
Sooo - was there any fact checking done on this? Did anyone else verify hearing the song? How many kids were in this class? Who was the teacher? Were there Any witnesses to this public, humiliating bullying, that happened in an engineering class? What about the counselor? Did the Chronicle contact the counselor for comment? Do they at least have the name of the counselor? And confirmation there is a counselor with that name working at this girl’s high school? Seriously. I have so many questions about all of this.
One last question… for all the other folks out there who have taken advanced math and science courses in high school and college, and studied engineering… all of which requires a certain degree of academic focus… how many of you experienced bawdy classroom environments involving sexist males singing songs out loud about bestiality? Did this impact your ability to focus and learn complicated topics? Because I would think that this MIGHT be an issue. Just a thought.
Jillian, if she exists, is a mandatory reporter. Did anyone fact check as to whether or not Jillian exists? If so, and this girl came to Jillian and told her about this sexualized bullying at her high school, the time she spent crying in an office of a high school counselor (also a mandatory reporter) and how this 15 year old girl was “forced” to drop out of the “engineering” class… did Jillian report anything about all this to anyone? The girl claims “Jillian” connected her with “resources” because of Jillian’s connection to CPS? Really? What resources? Is anyone suing the high school? The counselor? Has the teacher been disciplined for allowing this behavior in the classroom? I think the teacher is a mandatory reporter too. Did they report anything? If not, why not?
The parents have enough resources to support the child in terms of horse showing. Why is the child relying on CPS resources when coping with sexual harassment in high school? That doesn’t make sense. Anyone who knows much about the work CPS does, knows that resources are INCREDIBLY limited (shamefully so, in fact), CPS across the country is overworked and underfunded, and caseloads often involve horrific physical and sexual abuse of children who are frequently poor, and from minority backgrounds. Caucasian high school students who want to study engineering, who also have wealthy parents who support horse showing? And are experiencing bullying that sounds horrible… but does not involve an immediate physical threat to the minor? Not normally the sort of thing CPS has “resources” to assist with.
Sorry if I offend anyone… but I am calling this one as I see it. I’m actually concerned about the possibility that much of this story was fabricated/exaggerated… and now this young lady and her family will have to deal with the fall out that might come from nationally publishing this op ed, and attaching this 17 year old girl’s name to it.
Maybe its all true, and the parents are suing the high school as we speak. And the piece the girl wrote had some holes because she is… 17. But the whole thing strikes me as off. Very off.
There are, IMO, definitely some areas of the MAAP that are concerning to me as an adult amateur. I also don’t feel better when USEF says, ‘that doesn’t apply to that situation.’ If it doesn’t apply to the situation, then the guidelines need a re-write, because they sure seem to indicate they cover the situation.
I shouldn’t have to consider whether my choice as the only adult at the barn to stay because the 12 yr olds ride hadn’t show up yet put me afoul of MAAP. I was the only adult, meaning I was in a position of power, the interruptibility was questionable, and MAAP reads that the situation is covered by the regulations. Common sense dictates that I am being ridiculous in even thinking about it, but I’m not banking on common sense.
As always, it doesn’t mean I am anti-SafeSport, just some of the broader strokes…
You may consider it unreasonable in the sense of grossly unnecessary, but I still do not understand how including a parent on the text thread is remotely burdensome. When she asks for the video, say “Sure, send me a text with your Mom as a recipient as well as me”, then hit “reply all” when you send the video.
I actually agree with you in that particular example, the copy going to a parent is not necessary, but the point is it is actually easier to form the habit of always having Mom on the thread than having to think, case by case, whether an individual text is 100% obviously innocent, 95% obviously innocent, or probably innocent. Much easier and much less burdensome to always have the adult on there instead of asking with each text, could this be misconstrued?
As has been pointed out numerous times, these guidelines are designed to 1) prevent abuse, but also 2) to protect adults from having innocent actions being misconstrued as abuse.Wow.
I think that you are reading way too much into the specifics of the story and missing the forest for the trees.
The author stated that she was “forced” to drop the course … she doesn’t say that the school demanded she do so; I took that to mean that she dropped the course because the alternative was continuing to face the bullies every day.
I don’t work in a school so I don’t know the specifics about how verbal bullying of a sexual nature between classmates is addressed these days, but I doubt if kids making up a mean and inappropriate song falls under what must be reported to authorities. Nowhere does it say CPS actually got involved … I took the mention of CPS to mean that the fellow boarder in question had experience working with people who had been victimized and was therefore a good person to lend a supportive ear, not that she involved the authorities.
Sure, some of the writing could be clearer, but this was written by a 17 year old kid, not someone with a career in journalism. What happened to believing the victims, even if the “offense” is a relatively minor one?
@Virginia Horse Mom : I have to say, I had some similar thoughts as well. The whole thing felt very strange.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹@RugBug and @YankeeDuchess
I honestly don’t see what is wrong with saying by and large you should not be touching your coworkers. Especially if it’s your subordinate. It’s not professional. It doesn’t need to happen. Hug your friends, hug your kids, hug your family members. Leave your coworkers alone.
I hear what you’re saying about HR, but at least in my direct experience and that of a couple friends of mine who also work in finance, retaliation is a real thing. I agree HR encourages you to resolve it yourself, but it’s been my experience that that talk does not go well. Most of us changed firms as a result. I don’t think suing is the right course either, but I think it’s pollyana to say oh once the guy hears the advance is unwanted, it’s all good. That definitely didn’t happen to me.
That’s why I think it’s a problem putting the onus on the affected person to resolve the issue. I would rather focus on prevention first. Have proper harassment training that identifies what to be aware of and say, look guys, times have changed, you need to be more careful. I know one of my coworkers came to me yesterday to ask if a really dirty joke he told me was ok. I think that’s an easier conversation than my having to tell me boss I’m really not cool going to Hooters. That’s why I think the safesport training is a good start and more discussion is helpful.
I think what @englishivy mentioned is a great example where a hug is the right move. It’s not pervasive, it’s not unwanted and as a bonus, it’s not in secret.
I’m not saying no hugging ever. I’m saying let’s generally try to not touch those we have professional relationships with (which I count the horses in). In times of strife, such as falling off, a hug is a kindness, especially if someone is clearly welcoming it.
Wow. You don’t like her perspective so you attack her. Interesting. What happened to believing people? Also, you took a lot of things way overboard. 'CPS resources"? She said she talked to a friend from the barn that works for CPS. That IS NOT CPS resources. That’s talking to a friend.
Do your own search…she’s a real person. The farm is real and who are you to question her so vehemently.
Edited to add: try this timeline:
She starts gettinng teased. She talks to people at the barn about it and gets some perspective. Perhaps one conversation with the people mentioned at the end of a lesson, perhaps individual conversations. The point is that she feels comfortable with this women to HAVE the conversation that she doesn’t want to have with her parents or the counselor.
The adults tell her to talk to the counselor and her parents. CPS person has other ideas as well. Junior follows their suggestions. Perhaps she cries in the counselors office because she’s sensitive or she’s overwhelmed or whatever. It happens.
And yes, some high schools have engineering classes in the curriculum. Lucky her that she had the opportunity for that.
Her high school story isn’t that relevant. What’s annoying is that they published something with the same exaggeration and misinformation that permeates the overhaul Facebook page. Interaction between minors and adults is not prohibited. One on one interaction isn’t even prohibited. Reading that article makes me think she hasn’t even looked at the MAAP rules for herself.
I didn’t say that it was wrong to say people probably shouldn’t be hugging their co-workers. Not once.
What I did say is that a hug is not harassment. And if you’ve been hugged and don’t want to be…say something.
I hear what you’re saying about HR, but at least in my direct experience and that of a couple friends of mine who also work in finance, retaliation is a real thing. I agree HR encourages you to resolve it yourself, but it’s been my experience that that talk does not go well. Most of us changed firms as a result. I don’t think suing is the right course either, but I think it’s pollyana to say oh once the guy hears the advance is unwanted, it’s all good. That definitely didn’t happen to me.
Retaliation is real. Absolutely. Which is why if a situation is minor, like an unwanted, innocent hug, HR will try to have the employee handle it themselves.
it doesn’t sound like the guys in your scenarios were innocently hugging. I have never had someone without suspect intentions bristle at me telling them I am not a hugger. Not once. You’ve either had a different experience or the people you are referring to where not innocent in their attentions.
That’s why I think it’s a problem putting the onus on the affected person to resolve the issue. I would rather focus on prevention first. Have proper harassment training that identifies what to be aware of and say, look guys, times have changed, you need to be more careful. I know one of my coworkers came to me yesterday to ask if a really dirty joke he told me was ok. I think that’s an easier conversation than my having to tell me boss I’m really not cool going to Hooters. That’s why I think the safesport training is a good start and more discussion is helpful.
The focus for many (can’t say all because there are some horrible places to work and some that only pay lip service to harassment training, prevention) employers is prevention. But to really make training effective, people need to be empowered to say no and be heard, and respected. They need to set the boundaries for themselves and it needs to be respected. The idea that we all have the same boundaries and that someone with different boundaries is somehow automatically wrong is problematic. The huggers of the world need to hear that Sally doesn’t want to be hugged…and they need to not hug her. It’s a good idea for the huggers to ask if it’s okay to hug someone and then accept their answer. But if they don’t, the recipient should speak up.
(As an aside: While not being a hugger, I’ve never had an issue with someone that is giving me that innocent hug. Male OR female. Boss or friend. I know it’s innocent. It only bothers me if it’s laced with intent that is not innocent. I figure it’s akin to me doing something they tolerate but don’t enjoy.)
@RugBug I agree a hug isn’t necessarily harassment. But what you don’t realize is there are people out there like myself where I do not hug people. I hug my family, one friend, and the SO if I have one. That’s it. If the person does not fall into one of those categories do not hug me. Do not touch me. Innocent or not it’s extremely uncomfortable. Yes I do speak up but people don’t listen because that’s how they feel better and just cannot understand. Or they don’t ask.
Also, there is no reason for a co-worker or superior to hug someone at work. Zero. People need to realize that touching people is not okay in all scenarios.
People need to just stop touching people.
@Denali6298 Actually, I TOTALLY realize there are people out there that don’t hug others. I realize it because I am one. There are about 5 people in my life that I hug…and even sometimes that’s not my first choice. But, because I feel like they concede to my request for no hugs most of the time, I concede to their request for a hug sometimes. Most of them know to ask or to let me initiate. I don’t have anyone that I’ve told disrespect my boundary. And honeslty, when I recoil from a hug, that’s usually explanation enough or a good conversation starter. 
I disagree that people need to stop touching people. Touch is important part of life and communication. People need to respect boundaries…and to communicate their boundaries so they can be respected. Instead of making touch become taboo, how 'bout we make disrespecting boundaries the taboo. Some of those boundaries can very much be ‘touching at work is probably not okay.’ and 'touching strangers is out of bounds, etc.
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