Rob Gage

I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to believe a 17-year-old would be in favor of relaxing MAAP guidelines. I know my 17-year-old self would have bristled at the notion that I suddenly needed supervision or written permission to ride in a car with a person I have known for years and who has been a reliable source of support and advice; if we’d had text messages back then I would certainly have not been thrilled to be including my mom or another “chaperone” in all my conversations — not because anything inappropriate was being said on either side, but because I would’ve felt as though I was being treated like a child.

I’m sure that others at that age may not care one way or the other, or may agree with the policies or even think they aren’t strict enough, but that would have been my take on it. There is nothing far-fetched about a 17-year-old questioning MAAP, and I don’t think it’s fair to imply that her coach or another adult put her up to this.

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I am trying to dial down the manner in which I first critiqued the narrative, and be open to the clear fact that others had a different reaction than I did when reading it. I apologize if my posts have been too long, and I haven’t successfully conveyed this yet.

Yankee Duchess did an excellent job earlier though, in pointing out that it’s actually NOT alright to publish something, even an opinion piece, that contains a story which is represented as something that actually occurred in real life with real people who can easily be identified, and alleges something as serious as what this 17 year old writer alleged, without doing some fact checking first.

The Rolling Stone article was an investigative piece, and this is only an op Ed. But actually… that doesn’t matter. The writer gets to assert an opinion regarding MAAP policies, why she thinks relaxing them is a good idea, and how her interpretation of the policies may possibly impact her ability, and other junior’s ability, to have strong relationships with the adults at her barn.

The writer also may have exaggerated or engaged in some hyperbole, or frankly misrepresented the guidelines when trying to make the case about how cumbersome and challenging it would be to follow them. Others have done a much better job than I can of digging into that.

But the problem with the narrative that she used, that is vague in many respects, and that none of us seem to be interpreting in quite the same way is that she does NOT present this as her opinion, or interpretation. She presents it as something that happened in real life. And she says she was harmed by what happened (dropped the class, cried for days in a counselors office). And she says just enough, when coupling it with her published first and last name, where she lives, the fact that this involved an engineering class at her high school her sophomore year and a counselor at her school… well - people who actually know her or know what high school she attended can easily determine who the teacher was of the class, the counselor, and who was the principal of the school at the time.

The author never quite tells us what they did or didn’t do to support her, but she strongly implies they failed to support her and allowed sexism and specialized bullying to go on unchecked, and indicates she was harmed by it and lost out on the opportunity to take that engineering class as a sophomore.

COTH had to fact check this prior to publication, and should have contacted the school and given them the opportunity to comment on the story. And there is no evidence that happened. And the way the narrative was crafted, and specific things the author left out gives me the impression that it DIDN’T happen.

One other thought. Why didn’t the author or CORH name the high school in this op Ed? They name the coach, adult air friends, and barn where this young person rides. They name the college she will be attending in the fall. They use the author’s own first and last name. They say all this happened in an “engineering” class. But say the author will be studying “Chemical Engineering” at ASU.

So why not name her high school, or give the first name of the counselor in whose office she cried for days on end? They gave the first name of her riding coach and of two other adult amateurs who ride at her barn.

Call me cynical… but the suspicion I have is that they avoided naming the high school or counselor or tear her, and avoided talking about how this situation was resolved by the school…

Because someone wanted to skip fact checking, avoid a lawsuit, or did some fact checking and the response the school and counselor had about what they say actually happened didn’t fit with the author’s narrative… sooo… someone thought that if they just skipped using the high schools name or talking about any part of the story that didn’t work, it would be a work around and mitigate a risk of a lawsuit.

Just my thoughts. Which brings me back to the whole point… if there are issues like that and a lawsuit risk of any sort pertaining to an op Ed a 17 year old wrote… it should not be published. No matter how much one side likes it, and thinks it’s insightful regarding MAAP policies because this really sympathetic articulate 17 year old wrote it…

Publishing it if somebody knew it came up short in some way, or someone at the school challlenged the author’s version of what happened? It’s incredibly unethical, and resulted in the 17 year old whose first and last name is attached to this being stuck WAAAYYY out on a limb.

When Dean Nicole Eramo sued RollingStone for the way she was portrayed as insensitive to a rape victim in the story written by Sabrina Rubin Eardly… and won $3 million in a defamation suit (even though she didn’t lose her job… it’s actually a bit of an interesting case)… guess what?

Sabrina Rubin Eardly, the writer of that article, was personally responsible for paying $2 million of that verdict. Rolling Stone had to pay $1 million. Then got into an additional confidential settlement later. And were also sued for $25 million by members of the fraternity the whole story was about. Whom they ALSO settled with.

Putting a 17 year old out on any sort of limb is waaaaayyyy more egregious that having a seasoned reporter at the end of one. I think we can agree on that!

Just more to consider. Personally… if someone at COTH was so sincerely convinced of the merit of publishing the op Ed written by this 17 year old for whatever reason, at this point I am actually pretty surprised they didn’t just with hold her name altogether…

That would have been a better thing for the girl who actually wrote it. But there are different ethical challenges when it comes to publishing anonymous Op Eds… which is a whole different insane can of worms :wink:

The more I think about it and study this, the more little things jump out and add up to a problem, that needed to be explored and addressed prior to publication. But that’s my opinion. It might be wrong and the whole thing is airtight, and was fact checked and verified, and the school had a chance to comment and didn’t, and the writing just wasn’t great. And that’s why we are where we are. I hope that’s the case. But I doubt it.

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I didn’t imply they put her up to it. I did imply that she knows a lot of people are upset about these guidelines and unsure about how they are going to implement them, and talking about it, and hoping the guidelines are relaxed and amended.

I implied it is possible that she wrote the op Ed in an effort to curry favor with people who have this opinion. Who are mostly adults and industry professionals and coaches.

I also bristled at all sorts of stuff when I was 17. And did things like violate curfew, etc, because it was cumbersome to get home on time. I thought it was no big deal back then. As an adult… I am much more cognizant of the fact that curfews exist because a lot of bad stuff can happen when teens stay out extra late.

MAAP guidelines exist because when vulnerable juniors have close relationships with people who aren’t their parents, involving alone time, and one on one communication that can be kept secret, sometimes really bad things happen.

Just like curfews… just because a 17 year old doesn’t think something is REALLY important to follow, doesn’t mean they are right. Or even thinking in a clear way. And frankly, several of the times I didn’t get home by curfew it involved some really bad kids I was hanging out with pressuring me to stay at parties I shouldn’t have been at anyway… just saying …

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Those who are so upset that this was published, perhaps you should write an op-Ed sharing your views on why MAAP is going to be a positive thing for the horse industry? I’m sure COTH would be more than willing to have both sides of the issue heard, and I think that would be much more likely to change minds than questioning the truthfulness and motivation of a 17-year-old.

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I can not be the only one eye rolling at the ridiculous table pounding about COTH not fact checking and faux concern about the writer of this getting sued. I guess since it’s really unkosher now to straight up say you think victims of sexual harassment are lying, people have to start getting creative.

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Not to derail us all, but for what it’s worth, when my friends and I were driving home from the premiere of the animated movie way back when, we thought the comparison of Scar’s troops to Nazis was pretty obvious. In part it came up because an indignant young member of our party thought it was ripping off Star Wars stormtroopers, and we, ahem, schooled him on the origin of both.

I’m really uncomfortable seeing the dissection of the young woman’s story at school. None of us were there and it’s not relevant to the question of her thoughts on MAAP. Simply take it at face value that she - like nearly every young woman - has a story about sexual harassment that made her uncomfortable. I think this dissection on details is invasive and also pointless and there’s no way it can be answered without invading her privacy in ways that are wholly inappropriate. I wish everyone would let it go.

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Really? Lol.

Seriously though, Fisk123 already mentioned a series of articles that is being worked on concerning Safe Sport.

As for OpEds … here’s a thought. How about the editors of the Chronicle just dispense with the “Op” aspect (which is short for opposite the editorial page) and write to inform people concerning,

  1. When did Ms. Tamburro first submit this to them for publication

  2. Who reviewed her initial submission, and decided that it should be published

  3. Who then followed up with Ms. Tamburro concerning the details of her submission.

  4. What did the follow up entail? Calling to speak with Tamburros parents maybe, prior to publishing something she wrote nationally? After all, she’s still a minor. Maybe verifying details with Tamburro’s coach, and the two other adults at the barn who were mentioned? Anyone else? Like the counselor at the high school who was mentioned? Why was that person’s name not included? What about the Principal of Tamburro’s high school? Was he called and asked for a comment? And why wasn’t the high schools name used? The name of the farm Tamburro rides at was used?

  5. At what point after dong this follow up… or not doing this follow up, did an editor at COTH think it was ok to go ahead and publish this? Did they work with Tamburro on her writing first at all? Maybe do additional drafts? How many drafts?

  6. And oh yes. What about some of the statements Tamburro makes concerning what the actual MAAP guidelines say? Did anyone look at these statements and compare them to what the actual text of the guidelines includes? If not, why not?

There you go. The editors at COTH are completely capable of putting together something like this in response to pushback from people such as myself and others. If they did, I would be much more inclined to continue to read things they publish with interest, and trust. Right now? As a pretty loyal and longtime reader, my respect for the publication, and trust, is SIGNIFICANTLY diminished.

There you go. Oh yeah… and I noticed you have accused me again of attacking the 17 year old writer. But completely failed to say a single thing about the very real points I have made concerning the possibility that the Chronicle didn’t follow best practices in terms of fact checking and editing prior to publication. It’s a shame that people interested in amending MAAP guidelines and “reforming” Safe Sport are now sitting back behind a 17 year old who is way out on a limb. Perhaps you and others should act like adults, and write an Op Ed yourselves that actually convinces people of why it’s ok to basically say that these guidelines are too much of a PITA to follow…

you know, the guidelines that are intended to prevent and protect minor athletes from abuse by adults.

Agreed. I am going to let it drop.

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Uh… she put her experience forward, and signed her name to it all, and it was published.

I haven’t once said that I need to know the answers to these questions. I don’t. But I do think that the EDITORS at COTH had an obligation to look into all of this in detail prior to publishing what she wrote.

It does not seem like they did so to me.

You are right though. I’ve made my case and dissected why I am totally suspicious in great detail.

Everyone still arguing about it with me is going to resort to saying, “stop attacking the girl’s story. You should support anyone who comes forward with a story about these topics!”

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Virginia Horse Mom, didn’t you say you were going to stop nitpicking this girl’s article? Didn’t you say that about 5 pages ago? Or was it 10 pages ago by now?

Also, simply as a matter of curiosity. How many of the people who are complaining about the Chronicle’s journalistic practices are actually paying subscribers? And how many are non-subscribers who are just posting on their free bulletin board to criticize the magazine?

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Okie Dokie. I got it folks. I should have probably stopped several pages ago. And not attempted to respond and consider other’s criticisms of my initial posts, and try and think about what people had to say, and then slightly amend and clarify my position.

Because now apparently I am guilty of backpedaling. And absurd table pounding. And faux concern over the way I see matters with respect to this OpEd. Although It is indeed, exceptionally unlikely anyone will be sued about this. But that doesn’t mean it was ok to publish this. I don’t think it was. Obviously.

You all prefer not to look into it any further, and let it go, because the writer is 17.

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I have few more comments to make with my editor’s hat on…

As an editor, especially when you are making content choices, your responsibilities include helping your contributors put their best foot forward. This is particularly important when dealing with minors and sensitive topics.

The op ed had a lot of ambiguity, which leads people to interpret the events described very differently. And, because it covers a controversial topic, it instigates discussion. However, you don’t put a minor in that position—as the author of a controversial piece—especially when the minor is sharing firsthand accounts of sexual harassment.

I am a victim of sexual assault and that experience has changed me forever. I would never want anyone to go through it. Thus, I am troubled by someone who has experienced sexual harassment yet argues (mistakenly) against the policies put in place to keep this from happening to her and others.

I think a lot of people let Olivia down by encouraging her to publish this ambiguous piece on a national forum. Those are the people certain posters should be upset with, not those who are discussing the op ed and the events in it.

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  1. MAAP is going to be a good thing for horse industry because it provides a straightforward set of practices such that, if you follow them, will greatly protect adults, especially trainers, from false accusations of abuse, as rare as those may be.

  2. The reason that I found the publication of the anecdote problematic was not in what she said, but more in the fact that the overall extent of the victimization was so unclear because of what she left out. Let’s assume she used the word “forced” figuratively. Other than that let’s assume that every word she says is absolutely true.
    I have no problem whatsoever believing a group of 10th grade boys subjected her to sexual bullying. No problem believing that she dropped the class. But the anecdote is very ambiguous because she doesn’t say what, if anything the school did. Depending on how one fills in the blanks between “I was grossly bullied”, and “I dropped the class”, it could be the case that she was first victimized by the boys, and then the school did nothing, or nothing effectual, so that she felt she had no alternative but to drop the class. If this were the case (and this is the way I interpreted it), she would have been victimized a second time, by the school. And the school or counselor could face consequences. To me, the second victimization by the school is worse than the original bullying. There is a different way to fill in the blanks such that the school handled things appropriately. But which was it?
    Calling the COTH to task for failing to edit the piece for clarity, and, in particular, for failing to improve the clarity by eliminating the implication that the school victimized her a second time (if that was not the case), is not the same thing as questioning her truthfulness.
    I am a truthful person, and if I submitted an OpEd to a serious publication, I would be thankful for competent editorial review of anything I wrote in order to flag any unclear parts, let me know how a statement could be misinterpreted, and check any facts; I would not interpret the fact check process as a statement that the outlet presumed I was lying.

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Thank you actually, for a very thoughtful and fair explanation about what it was that specifically that was so upsetting to you. I totally respect you for this, and actually appreciate it. And will do my best to take it on board.

I will also respect what others have pointed out, that dissecting it any further is something that is really upsetting many folks. YankeeDuchess and Kelly S have done, bluntly, a much more effective job than I have of explaining some of the other perspective regarding this op Ed. I definitely have not gone about presenting my perspective in an effective manner.

One question for you… does the central thesis of the Op Ed resonate with you? I took the central thesis to be that the MAAP guidelines could create distance in the relationships juniors have with coaches and other adults in the barn, and kids who are struggling need these relationships.

Obviously my opinion on the op Ed has compromised my own ability to weigh in on this fairly. But perhaps folks will be willing to take the discussion in a different, more effective direction :wink:

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It really bothers me that children are being used to rally against a policy put in place to protect them by the very group of people to whom they are most vulnerable.

COTH should not print an op ed with misleading statements about an important program.

I strongly suggest they get someone who has dealt with these issues in another sport to write content because clearly the h/j industry has its head stuck in the sand.

One thing that keeps going through mind my with all of this. H/J trainers want continued unimpeded access to their junior clients. It’s not even about the safe sport stuff in most cases. It’s about keeping the parents in the dark as much as possible about what goes on with the horses so that the wallet stays open. It’s a lot easier to take advantage of someone who doesn’t understand what’s going on.

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I think that the guidelines could provide appropriate boundaries in the relationships between minor students and their coaches and I think on the whole that’s a good thing. How many threads do we have on here complaining about a lack of professional behavior on the part of equine “professionals” and the problems with the blurred line between trainer and friend. That’s only going to be more confusing when the student is a minor.

I don’t see what makes trainers or barn mates any different than teachers or priests. A lot of kids have trouble talking to their parents about stuff and other adults can be helpful. Or they can use the distance between the kids and their parents to groom the kid and abuse them. We’ve decided as a society that the risk is too high and the opportunity for abuse too great for teachers-so their one on one private time with students is curtailed to reduce the risk of incidents.

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 I very much agree with this.
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@FiSk123, who I assume is from figure skating, has been nominated for this. She is extremely knowledgeable and has a wonderful, calm style that commands respect, at least from me.

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