Though I don’t know if I agree with deserving it as a collective- as the 1% is just that and the rest of us are along for the ride- no pun intended.
Bolded- PREACH.
Get caught drugging? Change the age on paperwork? Don’t record the name? Put someone else on the hook as trainer? Molest a kid, a teenager? Be disrespectful to anyone who disagrees? If you win- some people DON’T CARE and continue to support. Thus turns the vicious circle.
This sums up most of the problems in our sport. The above list and even cost. If the customers refused to play, things would change.
In related news:
Thanks, Ghazzu. What a great article on many levels. The below quoted statement sums up many of our stories, including the one I related earlier in the thread. For the RG defenders and the people in the back:
“Good people can hurt you too. Just because someone is nice, just because they seem to do all the right things, just because they make people laugh, doesn’t mean they are incapable of hurt or abuse. No one is all good or all bad, but the good parts can’t justify the hurt that is caused”
Does anyone else fine Ashley’s experience a bit in the gray area? and please don’t castigate me for it, but I read this as a guy putting the moves on a girl at an alcohol-infused house party and when she said “NO” he immediately stopped. Isn’t that what you want to happen? Yes, she didn’t like his advances and didn’t know what to do so just lay there - which to him might have indicated acquiescence but as soon as she said no, he stopped… which to me is pretty telling: no meant no, and he respected it.
I’m absolutely an advocate for #metoo and am almost always ALWAYS on the victim’s side, but this one makes me go “hmmm”. Maybe its because I’ve been to house parties like that, and as a 17 year old never thought twice about a 22 year old man being illegal to kiss. And now as an adult don’t find this age difference inappropriate.
Anyways, just struggling with this one. Like I said, don’t hate me for it. Maybe someone can explain to me why I should be more bothered?
No, I don’t find it in a gray area. An adult climbed into bed with a teenager and assaulted her while she pretended to be asleep. When the assault progressed further, she dropped the pretense of unconsciousness and asked him to stop and he did.
The fact that he left when she asked him to does NOTHING to mitigate the facts of the initial assault, which was quite, quite creepy. Sexually assaulting an unconscious teenage guest in the middle of the night. If that doesn’t bother you, I’m not sure my explanation will help. I’m really sorry if that was routine as house parties you attended as a teen.
@Janeway I think one has to actually be awake to consent to being fondled (which is beyond “putting the moves” on someone). Consent before contact is the general rule.
This sidebar article to the main story is also worth a read: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2019/08/01/ashley-wagner-why-women-wait-voice-sexual-assault-allegations/1876473001/
I won’t hate you for it! I get it… but I will encourage you to go back and re-read her story.
She indicates she was not interested in the contact whatsoever, and had no intent of hooking up when attending the party with other skaters. The story claims that he literally climbed into her sleeping bag and started groping and kissing her and that she was frozen for an extended period of time, very aware of the fact that he was a grown man, who was much larger and physically stronger than she was, and how she initially just hoped he would stop. And turned her head away and began crying at a certain point, and when she realized that he wouldn’t stop… she eventually said no and protested out loud, and he got up and left.
But he never apologized to her the next day or at any other time, and acted as though the whole incident didn’t happen.
I can understand why the term “sexual assault” brings to mind other situations for many folks… and leads one to viscerally think about other situations. But her description of what happened to her, and being frozen… and just the overwhelming feeling of someone more physically powerful than you “claiming” your body and groping you all over like that… that is a sexual assault that I think is way too common, and that we need to understand as a society is NOT acceptable. At all. It happens… and when it happens to you, it doesn’t feel “grey.”
I also read an article elsewhere this morning about Coughlin. It indicated that there were as many as ten different accusers involved in the SafeSport investigation against him. It sounds similar to the Rob Gage case, in that the initial stories which came out following the suicide quoted supporters of both men… people who presumed to know what all the underlying reports involved, minimized the accusations, etc. It’s sad… and I am sure there are people who loved both guys who just can’t wrap their heads around the tragedy. My guess based on what I have read at this point about Coughlin as well though, is that there would not have been a lifetime ban if there wasn’t a substantial issue and multiple reports… much like the case involving Gage.
But it back to the topic of “gray areas” when it comes to two people being at a party together, and one having a sexual attraction to another that is not reciprocated…
Here’s my take on it.
A “normal” and NON ABUSIVE encounter between two people (in which only one has feelings of sexual attraction) evolves entirely differently than what Wagner described happened with Coughlin. I can remember a few different times from well over a decade ago prior to dating and marrying my husband, when I was out drinking as a young adult with some guy friends of mine, who were also young adults, and a guy friend decided to try and take the evening in a romantic direction. And I was not interested in it, and didn’t respond at all when I was kissed… I sort of froze each time I can remember this happening because I was surprised. In those instances though, the guy friends involved pulled back as soon as I froze and turned my head… and then in each situation there was a kind enough, slightly embarrassing brief talk with me saying something along the lines of, “Sorry - you are a great friend but I don’t think of you that way. I’m flattered… but not interested.” And my drunken guy friends in both instances saying something like, “I really like you though and think we could be great together,” and me replying with, “That’s sweet… but I’m really not interested and just want to continue being good friends… I’m sorry.” At which point a few more “I’m sorry too” s were said on both sides, and a 100% platonic hug happened… and that was that. Both situations involved a fumbling attempt at touching me as well… which was surprising… but did not feel like a violation. And the touching stopped within seconds of it starting.
Afterwards we both went forward. And these guys remained trusted friends of mine. And it was ok.
This stuff happens. People attend parties, drink, etc, and there are miscommunications. But “normal” decent men do not climb into sleeping bags with younger females, and grope and kiss someone who is non responsive, and actually crying… and continue to do so. And when the 17 year old girl eventually reaches a point in this situation and protests andDEFINITIVELY voices that she wants it to stop… a normal decent man would have said, “Oh my God… I’m so sorry. I didn’t realize you weren’t interested.”
Apparently Coughlin never did that. And apparently there are other allegations of problematic behavior. And that’s why Safe Sport is needed. Because people who have problematic tendencies like this can really exploit power imbalances in the world of sports, and abuse others, especially minor athletes, and it’s a sad and destructive and toxic thing.
The sidebar is definitely worth reading.
The whole description of staying quiet because making an accusation against someone when you both are part of the same, small social circle, and fear repercussions that are inevitable if you disrupt that social circle…
This is very very real. And the pressures in terms of competing at an elite level are also real. Accusations that can impact who is on an Olympic Team, or who coaches it? That’s an extra layer of pressure and stress that this report does a great job of making clear.
Good for Wagner on speaking up. It’s unfortunate that both she and HR had to come out in the manner they did.
I am am curious if the Facebook “Safe Sport Reform” group is discussing this report today… I’m not a member though.
Not to be picky, but there was no mention of a ‘sleeping bag’ in the article. She was in a bed.
@Janeway I think what you are responding to is the limited nature of the event and what feels like a lack of severity. . I hate to say it, but it seems minor in the grand scheme of assaults. In some ways, it feels like it diminishes what some women have gone through. There was nothing okay about the event, but…
For me, what it really points out is how much we’ve accepted sexual assault as part of growing up. A part of life. It shouldn’t be.
Also, I imagine if this was the only accuser, there would not have been a lifetime ban.
Limited nature and lack of severity?? Groping someone while they are asleep is sexual assault. It doesn’t matter he stopped when she woke up and said no! What on earth is wrong with you people? Lack of severity… She was ASLEEP and UNDERAGE.
This is why we need Safe Sport.
Would you feel better if it was full on rape? It diminishes nothing. I can’t even…
I think that sums up what I was feeling. “It didn’t seem that bad” - which I admit is actually kinda awful that I felt that originally. I guess I compare it to what I know some of my friends have been through. Thanks to all that responded. @Virginia Horse Mom thank you for the insigh.
PS The story I read didn’t mention a sleeping bag either - Coughlin climbed on to the bed with her.
I think it’s great that we’re having this conversation, and I’m really glad you brought it up, so I hope my previous post wasn’t too harsh.
I think your reaction to this is not uncommon, and I think that’s part of the problem. So thank you for verbalizing it.
If we have to rate or rank sexual assaults on a scale, say, with an ass groping at a nightclub being a 1 and gang rape at gun point being a ten, this assault is only a 4.
Do you hear how horrible that sounds? That’s the problem right there; that’s what happens as soon as you go down the road of “grey area/not that severe.”
The root cause of sexual assaults is that certain men feel entitled to use women’s bodies; and the lasting horror for many women who have survived assault is the loss of bodily autonomy.
Consent doesn’t mean until she says no or until she violently protests; under this logic "…as soon as she said no, he stopped… "; Brock Turner’s rape of an unconscious girl behind a dumpster is okay since she didn’t tell him to stop.
Coughlin climbed into bed with a teenage teammate while she was asleep and sexually assaulted her. What are the other possible outcomes here? She doesn’t wake up and he does a Brock Turner? She does wake up and he holds a hand over her mouth or threatens her so she doesn’t say no? Does anyone seriously believe Coughlin thought the outcome of this encounter was going to be her waking up and saying “Oh, goody, just what I always wanted?” Because that totally happens, right? A girl who previously has shown no interest or willingness is totally delighted to wake up to find a man in her bed groping her?
@RugBug and Janeway - Thanks for the heads up on the sleeping bag error. I admittedly read both stories quickly… and probably haven’t had enough coffee yet today 
Which is rare for me… lol.
I’m not offended by what you wrote Janeway - I think it’s healthy to have discussion on these topics, and read these stories a few extra times when necessary, and think a little more when necessary too.
@Denali6298 has a significant point about the underage component of the Wagner story. Coughlin was 22 at the time. She was 17. He knew this. We aren’t talking about the 1970’s when people weren’t prosecuted for stuff like that. We are talking 10 years ago. Men who knowingly attempt to cross these sorts of clear legal lines? Bluntly… it’s a black and white issue and the vast majority of young men out there consciously AVOID any sort of sexual contact with underage girls. Not only because it’s wrong… but because they don’t want to face legal repercussions.
The story about Coughlin indicates that he was willing to blow right through more than one ethical and legal boundary in terms of appropriate sexual behavior … and that’s just not a grey thing at all. It’s predatory.
Don’t stress too much, I had the same feeling first time I read it too. Not so much that it didn’t seem bad, but that compared to other stories it doesn’t SOUND as bad (the guy could have kept going, for example). I also wondered if the guy could have misinterpreted the crying as, well, other sounds that indicate enjoyment. Because guys can be pretty dumb when they are in that mood, as most of us probably know. Not that it makes any of it okay, but it did occur to me that that could have been why the guy kept going. As to why he started in the first place…definitely not cool.
But people get really emotional about this subject, so don’t let yourself feel too bad if anyone attacks you for that. Questioning things that don’t sound right to you isn’t a bad thing, don’t ever stop doing it.
del
It’s absolutely a problem…as any assault is wrong.
But I also think there is a problem if we consider all assaults as the same thing. The grey area for many isn’t that it’s assault. It’s clearly assault. It’s a just not as severe as some things other women have experienced. Just because some people can’t fathom that, doesn’t mean it’s not a fact. It also doesn’t diminish someone’s experience to say that. Trauma is still trauma.
Put it in a different context: A burglary while no one home is a crime and creates psychological trauma. A burglary while you are at home is on a whole other level. Both are crimes, both are wrong, but they aren’t the same when you consider the level of severity. The law understands the variation. Most people do as well.
We dishonor and disrespect the experience of many survivors when we consider all assault to be the same.
As I posted earlier today, it’s
Consent BEFORE Contact
Someone who is asleep or passed out cannot consent. And if you do not have consent, you do not make contact of a sexual nature. Ever.
The Brock Turner case is a good example. How about this one? Take the 17-year-old rising superstar skater out and substitute a person in a coma. Still OK? Or is it OK if they stop when you walk in the room? That makes it all better?
Nope.
There is no “ranking” of sexual assault. Yes, some are physically more severe than others. But the trauma is trauma. And the feelings are valid.
I can’t get over these responses. Y’all need training in person on sexual harassment and assault training bad. Funny the people who disagree with Safe Sport need it the most.
A person should be able to fall asleep or pass out without having someone assault them. Bottom line.
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