I call crap on that the law would agree. You really think if this went to court that they would even TRY to convict/sentence on the same grounds as a rape of an unconscious girl?
I get that we don’t like to make these distinctions, because it feels horrible to even say that a sexual assault ‘isn’t that bad’ but they don’t all rise to the same level in severity. They are ALL WRONG…but they aren’t all the same in severity. This rises above others, but its less severe than many.
The fact that you as the public have this opinion is why it is so hard to make this behavior unacceptable.
Another point on the issue of “severity” of abuse that many people don’t understand… but definitely applies to the Coughlin case. And probably to some of the RG cases, even though we don’t have details on specifics (I’m not saying we should… please don’t misinterpret this!).
Wagner does a really good job of explaining the dynamic involved when someone is abused by another person, and both parties are in a small social circle. In their case… it was a social circle involving elite figure skaters competing at high levels. The same could probably be said of HR and RG… thru both occupied a small social circle, she was an elite competitor, and he coached her sisters as well I believe.
Anyway… the competitive stakes involved in making an accusation that is certain to impact a small social circle involving high level athletes are VERY real. So the person who was abused can, and does, feel even more stress when carrying their secret and debating about whether or not to speak out. The repercussions of making the accusation will impact the entire social circle in one way or another.
Many studies show that in situations when a victim experiences additional stress and pressure to stay silent about abuse for any number of reasons, it actually intensifies the degree of trauma associated with the experience of that abuse.
Just something for people to be aware of. I appreciate the way USA Today covered Wagners story, and the stress she experienced in terms of keeping her experience to herself for years. It is a very real component of the bigger picture when considering this sort of abuse in sports, and why Safe Sport is structured the way that it is (confidential reporting and keeping details of accusations confidential as well).
RugBug,
Good points,
Put it in a different context: A burglary while no one home is a crime and creates psychological trauma. A burglary while you are at home is on a whole other level. Both are crimes, both are wrong, but they aren’t the same when you consider the level of severity.
But do we tell the victim of the first that it wasn’t that traumatic because it wasn’t as bad as the second? Or do we just recognize that both are violations; and deal with the the victims as individuals? I think the “it wasn’t the bad/its a grey area” is a tactic that really gets heavy use with female victims of sexual assaults.
I am going to admit to a big, profound bias here: I spent a lot of time being told that things that happened to me as a child and teen “weren’t that bad/were in a gray area” because it wasn’t (fill in the blank) or as bad/severe as (fill in the blank.) So it absolutely sounds like minimizing/diminishing to me. And fairly early on, I came to understand that this tactic was used by people to protect themselves from their own discomfort or feelings of accountability.
So I probably have a trigger here, and probably am not the best person to discuss it dispassionately.
Please. Just because you can’t read what I wrote that it is WRONG, that trauma is trauma, and it doesn’t diminish someone’s experience to say all assaults are NOT the same, doesn’t in anyway mean I, or people that think like me, are condoning anything of this behaviour or making it harder to make it unacceptable.
I know you don’t seem to be able to understand it. That’s fine. But people with your opinion actually just shut the conversation down.
Assault is WRONG. What John Coughlin did is WRONG and UNACCEPTABLE.
But it’s still not the equivalent of what Anne K. experienced.
You literally wrote her story diminishes others. I get the law sees it on levels but the public needs to stop. These women all handle it differently. What leads one to suicide won’t lead another. That’s my problem with your grey area. Something could happen to me and I move on, same thing happens to you and you go into a tail spin. Get it? You do not get to say what is worse because it’s individual to the person who was assaulted. The law can. But not you the public.
Why on earth is it so bad to you for people to say that there are levels of severity? Are you really going to tell the person that was, say, raped as a 13 year old that their assault was at the same level as someone that was unwillingly groped by a guy that stopped when she got up the courage to say stop? Both are awful, but I don’t think the person that was groped would agree that it’s quite the same. I know that the abuse I’ve experienced, while definitely causing some trauma that I am still dealing with, I would not classify as awful as other stories I have heard.
We absolutely do not tell a victim that it wasn’t trauma. Trauma is trauma. Feelings from that trauma are valid and individualized. No diminishing there (at least not from me.).
We, as a society, have definitely had a problem telling girls/boys/women/men that they should just get over something because ‘it wasn’t that bad.’ That is NOT okay. It’s also not okay to tell them that it wasn’t assault because it seemed minor. I know the post that sparked this had that thought, but it’s not at all where I was going.
Heck, I rank my own #metoo experiences. Some are no big deal to me. Some have caused lasting trauma. They were ALL assault.
That makes even less sense, now you are saying that people aren’t allowed to have an opinion at all.
I never assign levels to sexual assault/rape victims. Two people can go through the same trauma and handle it differently. The fact that you think assigning levels is okay is just beyond my comprehension. No getting groped is not the same as rape. Everyone knows that.
Would you really tell Wagner well, it’s not that bad you weren’t raped.
If you want to make yourself feel better about your abuse saying it could be worse, that’s fine. It is callous to say it about someone else.
Oh people can have opinions. I’m also allowed to be disgusted by them.
Another point for people to consider…
When talking about levels of “severity” - what are you even talking about?
The specifics of the assault? Or the amount of trauma experienced by the victim?
I think it’s ok to say out loud if you read a story about an experience, complete with details, and something about it just doesn’t seem to ring true to you…
however… I actually thought the two reports from USA Today did a really good job of explaining why sexual abuse involving elite athletes participating in small social circles, and making an accusation of abuse can involve incredibly high stakes in terms of ones own career and that of the perpetrator, and any sort of team both participate on… well… this can definitely amplify the stress and trauma the abuse victim experiences.
del
I did. And it does. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t assault. If we punish a perpetrator in this story the same as we punish Jimmy Williams, what’s the point?
I didn’t say she wasn’t allowed to feel what she’s feeling. That she didn’t experience trauma. That she doesn’t deserve justice. But when it’s categorized as exactly the same as Anne K’s experience? There is a problem. Maybe her trauma IS the same as AK’s. That’s valid. But that doesn’t mean the event was the same severity.
Not MY grey area. I acknowledged the feeling and posited that maybe it was because it didn’t seem as severe. I acknowledged immediately that it was assault, and wrong and trauma is trauma.
What you continually miss is that people approach things from different perspectives. I understand yours, but you refuse to acknowledge anyone else’s. We are looking at the same horse, but I’m describing the front view and you’re describing the back view. You overlook the pieces that should clue you in to what I think the back view of this would look like: Assault. Trauma. Wrong.
I don’t even “assign” levels of severity to any of it personally, but I don’t like watching others be attacked for asking simple questions.
Waiting for the “…stuff like that happens all time.” or my new favorite “…back in the day, stuff like that happened all the time and it wasn’t a big deal.” rationalization.
I get your view and I think it’s beyond tragic. You’re allowed to have it. I’m allowed to think your view is part of the problem.
This is the 2019 version
Kinda think women in 2019 should not be saying “oh well it could have been worse. It’s a grey area. He stopped after she woke up and said no.”
So not simple questions but callous and stupid ones.
I take issue with a few things.
First… where does it say in any article or in anyone’s post that Wagners experience is categorized as the same as AKs experience?
Straw man.
Second, how does Wagners story diminish anyone else’s?
I disagree with that. If Wagner LIED, and it was proven she LIED… and the whole thing was an unjust hoax… like the Duke lacrosse case or Julie Swetnick, the 3rd Kavanaugh accuser… that’s one thing. But I am not able to follow how Wagners story diminishes anything other people have come forward with.
Third… Safe Sport investigations and lifetime bans aren’t about punishment. They’re about making sports safer for younger athletes. So I don’t see an issue with both Jimmy Williams and John Coughlin being banned…
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