Rob Gage

[juststartingout]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I believe your intentions are coming from a positive place, but this is tough.

A child’s mindset is very very very different from an adult’s mindset. Children can land in dangerous situations through no fault of their own, and it is very hard to educate them to pro-actively spot warning signs that are easily visible to sophisticated, mature people. I don’t think education can remedy a lack of life experience.

Additionally… the fact of the matter is that most abuse happens WITHIN a circle of trust. Perpetrators are frequently family members, close family friends, clergy, or trusted mentors and coaches. Teaching children to trust no one… that’s also problematic.

Add to that Tex’s earlier point… victims are often kids from dysfunctional families/otherwise problematic backgrounds, who are frankly more vulnerable than your average child. Abusers exploit that.

I do understand concerns about the harm that can happen by a lack of due process, and these extra judicial processes (like Safw Spirt) that seem to have murky lines in terms of where the statute of limitations and burden of proof lies are problematic… but I think placing responsibility for keeping our of harms way on the shoulders of a vulnerable minor misses the mark.

The best thing I know to do is to be a good parent, and a clear eyed, caring adult. And to try and support good, ethical people in sports and other activities, and withhold support (and dollars) from people with problematic reputations - especially in the area of sexual/emotional exploitation.

My c

[IPEsq]

I also brought up the issue of killing horses because that is another scenario where you may well have a court action available, yet USEF might also separately ban someone for it. I haven’t heard anyone screaming lack of due process there. And as others have pointed out, it hasn’t necessarily meant a devastating loss in business for the banned person.

I did see some insinuations on Facebook that RG had some connection to such acts in the past, but I’m not sure where that came from. There’s a lot being said on Facebook around this that doesn’t make any sense.

[vxf111]

@IPEsq

it hasn’t necessarily meant a devastating loss in business for the banned person.

Nope. Sure doesn’t seem like it. Just change your name (or not) and go about your business training and giving clinics.

[RugBug]

@Texarkana

But it I have faith that if someone is innocent and falsely accused, it will come to light.

Is there a justifiable reason other than general skepticism to believe otherwise?

I don’t have nearly as much trust in the process/system. I think it’s a bit pollyanna to believe that it will always come to the right conclusion. We’ve got investigators that are not as unbiased as we’d like to think…because who wants to make a mistake and say a potential abuser really isn’t one? People see what they want to see…and that includes investigators.

Watch the HBO documentary Capturing the Friedmans. It’s an interesting documentary watching a family fall apart when the father and youngest son are accused of being predators. It’s complicated by many factors and definitely not black and white, but what stood out to me the most was the investigators recount of what they found (or didn’t)…as well as some of the victims statements of what happened (or didn’t).

As mentioned up thread, USEF membership is voluntary. We are not talking about constitutional rights here.

for those that keep saying that we are just talking about membership in a sports club, that’s pretty dismissive of what these types of allegations can do to someone’s life.

[Christa_P]

Not necessarily this case, but how many times have pedophiles, serial killers, serial rapists and spouse/child abusers been caught and convicted in court, but there are still friends and family that say “no way it was him (or her), they’re such nice people. So involved in the community”.

The reactions of those outside the abuse is common. That doesn’t mean the abuse or crime didn’t happen, only that the person hid it well.

[Jealoushe]

@Max123

I’m glad to see that this thread is much more civil than the facebook threads. I imagine if you dare to stick up for the victims on those pages there will be torches and pitchforks …

I unliked EquestrianCoach.coms page for that exact reason. Standing behind an abuser is not a good PR move.

[AZ_TD]

@Christa P

Not necessarily this case, but how many times have pedophiles, serial killers, serial rapists and spouse/child abusers been caught and convicted in court, but there are still friends and family that say “no way it was him (or her), they’re such nice people. So involved in the community”.

The reactions of those outside the abuse is common. That doesn’t mean the abuse or crime didn’t happen, only that the person hid it well.

Agree, I worked at a counseling agency that provided services for convicted sex offenders who were released from prison. In general, they were pleasant people from every walk of life-computer programers, priests, truck drivers, young, old, some were still married. Actually, as a group they were friendly, that is how they target their victims and start the grooming process (someone who is vulnerable). You cannot tell!

[RugBug]

@Denali6298

Because now it’s people they know. People they look up to. People they respect. And let’s face it hunter land hasn’t really been a bastion for ethics in a while. And they wonder why people leave and/or criticize. Crap like this is WHY I left the discipline. As a re-rider I thought about coming back because I do love it. But I won’t support people in their BS.

Just a note that your disdain for hunterland is apparent, but not the ‘a-ha!’ you’d like it to be. It’s about the numbers. . There are others, in other disciplines…they just tend not to have the same numbers. Hunter and Jumpers are very intertwined…and have a very trainer dependent model. Add that they the large majority start their riding career in hunters in the US…and it becomes a number things, not the cesspool you’d like to paint it as.

So, if dressage was the discipline of choice for beginning children, we’d be talking about them instead of hunters.

Any place where children are readily available to the type of person with power and the inclination, there will be abuse.

[Tiramit]

In considering the “falsely accused” examples people have brought up here and on Facebook, it’s hard not to notice that in many cases the victim either didn’t remember what had happened or didn’t know the accused / didn’t get a great look. I don’t think the same applies to the SafeSport situations. Children who are groomed know their predator. It’s not difficult to connect that identifying memory and the sheer guts it takes to lodge a formal complaint combined are what contribute to the low % of false claims.

The COTH’s article on SafeSport cites 55% of the cases move forward to the investigation phase. That’s 45% that are instantly kicked out due to type or severity. They then start the investigation. It was an interesting read and contradicts much of the nastier Facebook comments spouted as knowledge, including a lack of law enforcement involvement:

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article…port-questions

[Denali6298]

@RugBug

Just a note that your disdain for hunterland is apparent, but not the ‘a-ha!’ you’d like it to be. It’s about the numbers. . There are others, in other disciplines…they just tend not to have the same numbers. Hunter and Jumpers are very intertwined…and have a very trainer dependent model. Add that they the large majority start their riding career in hunters in the US…and it becomes a number things, not the cesspool you’d like to paint it as.

So, if dressage was the discipline of choice for beginning children, we’d be talking about them instead of hunters.

Any place where children are readily available to the type of person with power and the inclination, there will be abuse.

I don’t have a disdain for hunters. I have a disdain for a system that sweeps unethical things under the carpet. That, is not limited to hunters, however, hunters do seem to be the only ones routinely complaining. Other sports have to abide by Safe Sport and people aren’t screaming “It’s unfair! Constitutional rights!”

There is a whole big world out there, beyond horses that Safe Sport is a part of. Honestly the reaction of the horse world towards safe sport keeps me happy just being a back yard rider.

My refusal to be a USEF member again goes way beyond Safe Sport, and the hunter ring.

[Foxy_Co]

@MyssMyst

Or we’re people who’ve seen crazy things happen to knock competitors out of the ring…

That’s exactly it. People do things every day to knock out competition. I’ve experienced it far too many times by receiving the hits, not giving them. False allegations for any reason fly around a lot, especially in close knit equestrian communities where you’re working side-by-side with the very people you compete against. I could give various examples of what I’ve been dealing with the past year but that’s beyond the point here. When it comes to sexual misconduct, its uncommon that people lie about it and I don’t believe that any accusations with RB are false, but it doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Christa P

Not necessarily this case, but how many times have pedophiles, serial killers, serial rapists and spouse/child abusers been caught and convicted in court, but there are still friends and family that say “no way it was him (or her), they’re such nice people. So involved in the community”.

The reactions of those outside the abuse is common. That doesn’t mean the abuse or crime didn’t happen, only that the person hid it well.

Exactly. People believe what they want to believe. Even when presented with undeniable proof some people will refuse to believe. We all know the truth to our experience and have to live with that. For some the truth is empowering, for others the truth (and the thought that others may find out the real truth) can be devastating.

[Denali6298]

@Max123

I’m glad to see that this thread is much more civil than the facebook threads. I imagine if you dare to stick up for the victims on those pages there will be torches and pitchforks …

I personally feel it would be wildly inappropriate to post anything relating to “what about the victims?” on people’s personal pages that were obviously friends with him. The people in his life have every right to mourn his death and the person that they knew.

[Texarkana]

@RugBug

I don’t have nearly as much trust in the process/system. I think it’s a bit pollyanna to believe that it will always come to the right conclusion. We’ve got investigators that are not as unbiased as we’d like to think…because who wants to make a mistake and say a potential abuser really isn’t one? People see what they want to see…and that includes investigators.

Watch the HBO documentary Capturing the Friedmans. It’s an interesting documentary watching a family fall apart when the father and youngest son are accused of being predators. It’s complicated by many factors and definitely not black and white, but what stood out to me the most was the investigators recount of what they found (or didn’t)…as well as some of the victims statements of what happened (or didn’t).

for those that keep saying that we are just talking about membership in a sports club, that’s pretty dismissive of what these types of allegations can do to someone’s life.

Anyone who knows me IRL would probably get the biggest kick ever out of me being referred to as “pollyanna” in any sense. I’m a realist to the core. It’s quite complimentary to know I can tone it down that much. :yes:

I hear your point that no one wants to make a mistake and set an abuser free. But quite frankly, I cannot see how SafeSport or USEF benefits from inappropriately handing down sanctions, especially those that bar members for life. It’s bad for finances, it’s bad for PR, and it puts you at risk of being on the receiving end of legal action. It is in both of their interests to make the correct call.

The sanctioning process is quite lengthy. A lot of the social media talk makes it appear that someone just lodges an anonymous complaint, then the alleged is automatically disciplined with no opportunity to defend themselves. When you read the policies, that isn’t how it is supposed to work. Could SafeSport not be doing what they say they are doing? I guess… but in my mind, it’s far more likely that people are jumping to conclusions or only viewing the situation from one side. (“My beloved trainer says he/she didn’t do it and that people are just jealous of him/her winning all the time!”)

[MyssMyst]

@Denali6298

I personally feel it would be wildly inappropriate to post anything relating to “what about the victims?” on people’s personal pages that were obviously friends with him. The people in his life have every right to mourn his death and the person that they knew.

I honestly can’t imagine losing your friend and the person you thought they were all at the same time.

[RugBug]

@HLMom

Here’s an apropros article from Atlantic magazine about how these rape tribunals went so wrong on college campuses:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/

This article was fascinating…and has a lot of parallels. I need to track down parts 2 & 3

[Denali6298]

@MyssMyst

I honestly can’t imagine losing your friend and the person you thought they were all at the same time.

Exactly.

[RugBug]

@MyssMyst

I honestly can’t imagine losing your friend and the person you thought they were all at the same time.

That documentary I watched last night illustrated this struggle. Some were better at it than others…but the details were pretty hard to swallow. The father was an admitted pedophile, as in, he literally told people he was, but some members of his family maintained his innocence of any wrong doing… But then he admitted to having (and was found with) child porn and that the father said he’d molested 2 boys previously. So he’s guilty of things, but not what they accused him of? It’s very disturbing to see the cognitive dissonance in the family… and also see how the investigators also mis-remembered and overlooked inconsistencies.

[oneequestrienne]

@Denali6298

I personally feel it would be wildly inappropriate to post anything relating to “what about the victims?” on people’s personal pages that were obviously friends with him. The people in his life have every right to mourn his death and the person that they knew.

That’s true. I agree that there is no need to impose on someone’s grief. However, I don’t know if you have seen what s being plastered all over those posts and comments. Anger, denial and victim shaming at its worst. Still, I won’t be replying to any of the outrageous things I am seeing on FB. I don’t need that negative energy coming my way. Let them grieve.

[oneequestrienne]

@RugBug

This article was fascinating…and has a lot of parallels. I need to track down parts 2 & 3

I agree about what is going wrong on college campuses. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with how Safesport operates. At all. There are no anonymous complaints allowed. Those accused are allowed to know who is accusing them as well as appeal the decision. It’s just not the same.