Rob Gage

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@juststartingout

The harm of abuse exists on a range that varies for each situation and each person.

The harm of suicide is also wide ranging.

The objectives of SafeSport make sense – the way its applied may not.

What is lost in all of this is that SafeSport will not keep minors safe from abuse. Abusers will not play by these rules. Parents will not keep children safe from abuse (although they can help).

There is a huge missing piece here that has not been addressed. Let us focus on educating minors. That means providing the training and support for minors so that they can recognize inappropriate situation before they escalate, avoid situations that place them at risk, know how to handle an inappropriate situation, and have a place or places to turn to when something happens despite everything else. Let’s give minors the tools and avenues to take care of themselves.

How empowering would that be

I believe your intentions are coming from a positive place, but this is tough.

A child’s mindset is very very very different from an adult’s mindset. Children can land in dangerous situations through no fault of their own, and it is very hard to educate them to pro-actively spot warning signs that are easily visible to sophisticated, mature people. I don’t think education can remedy a lack of life experience.

Additionally… the fact of the matter is that most abuse happens WITHIN a circle of trust. Perpetrators are frequently family members, close family friends, clergy, or trusted mentors and coaches. Teaching children to trust no one… that’s also problematic.

Add to that Tex’s earlier point… victims are often kids from dysfunctional families/otherwise problematic backgrounds, who are frankly more vulnerable than your average child. Abusers exploit that.

I do understand concerns about the harm that can happen by a lack of due process, and these extra judicial processes (like Safw Spirt) that seem to have murky lines in terms of where the statute of limitations and burden of proof lies are problematic… but I think placing responsibility for keeping our of harms way on the shoulders of a vulnerable minor misses the mark.

The best thing I know to do is to be a good parent, and a clear eyed, caring adult. And to try and support good, ethical people in sports and other activities, and withhold support (and dollars) from people with problematic reputations - especially in the area of sexual/emotional exploitation.

[Denali6298]

@juststartingout

The harm of abuse exists on a range that varies for each situation and each person.

The harm of suicide is also wide ranging.

The objectives of SafeSport make sense – the way its applied may not.

What is lost in all of this is that SafeSport will not keep minors safe from abuse. Abusers will not play by these rules. Parents will not keep children safe from abuse (although they can help).

There is a huge missing piece here that has not been addressed. Let us focus on educating minors. That means providing the training and support for minors so that they can recognize inappropriate situation before they escalate, avoid situations that place them at risk, know how to handle an inappropriate situation, and have a place or places to turn to when something happens despite everything else. Let’s give minors the tools and avenues to take care of themselves.

How empowering would that be

It is empowering. That’s why Safe Sport developed training for juniors that are age dependent.

[BigMama1]

@juststartingout

The harm of abuse exists on a range that varies for each situation and each person.

The harm of suicide is also wide ranging.

The objectives of SafeSport make sense – the way its applied may not.

What is lost in all of this is that SafeSport will not keep minors safe from abuse. Abusers will not play by these rules. Parents will not keep children safe from abuse (although they can help).

There is a huge missing piece here that has not been addressed. Let us focus on educating minors. That means providing the training and support for minors so that they can recognize inappropriate situation before they escalate, avoid situations that place them at risk, know how to handle an inappropriate situation, and have a place or places to turn to when something happens despite everything else. Let’s give minors the tools and avenues to take care of themselves.

How empowering would that be

While I think education is a valuable tool, I would hate the responsibility of not getting abused being placed on the shoulders of children. That’s rather like the decades of messaging to girls and women that it’s our responsibility to avoid being assaulted (don’t go out alone at night, don’t dress a certain way, don’t talk to strangers, don’t park underground, don’t have one too many drinks, don’t be too friendly in case it’s misinterpeted, etc.) rather than simply teaching boys and men about consent.

In the context of SafeSport someone recently commented to me that “little Lolitas who show up at the barn dressed provocatively” are causing the problems. Sorry, no. My teenaged daughter could show up NAKED and it still doesn’t give someone the right to assault or abuse her.

So by all means let’s inform, educate and supervise our young people to help keep them safe. But at the end of the day the ultimate responsibility and blame, if any, lies solely at the feet of the adult abuser, not of their victims. Period.

[OneGrayPony]

The concern I have about SafeSport is that it works extrajudicially. You can say “well they weren’t enough, abuse still occurred” to which I say - abuse will still occur. But if there were holes in the judicial process itself, maybe we should fix those instead of slapping something on sports organizations.

Abuse can happen anywhere - the stats are 1 in 6. Teachers, family members, neighbors, anyone who has access to children could be an abuser.

The education piece I don’t think anyone has any issue with, and I think is a real positive.

I think I’m missing the gap that SafeSport was trying to fill. If it’s a statute of limitations thing, well those were implemented for a reason. If it’s a “we didn’t kick them out even after they were prosecuted” well then, we should fix that.

Please understand - being critical of SafeSport does not mean anyone wants abuse to occur! It’s just that we want to be sure that it’s handled well

[Denali6298]

The gap Safe Sport is trying to fill is education. Nasser’s victims AND their parents had zero clue despite witnessing it. The gap is also for kids who’s parents are not as involved as mine or some other people’s on this thread. The gap is to ban people from participating in a sport that allows unmitigated access to kids despite the statute of limitations or enough evidence to convict in court. Like it or not, the USEF banning someone does not equal the impact of being incarcerated and having to register as a sex offender. I can’t believe that needs to be said but there it is. A whole lot more is lost than the ability to go to a horse show.

Safe Sport says on their website to contact authorities and them. None of this is done anonymously. Just because we the general public don’t know who made the report, doesn’t mean they are anonymous to those who are investigating and need to know.

We we all look at this through our own lens but it’s important to realize that that lens is not the same for everyone. It’s a broad approach because there are so many different family situations, economic situations and awareness levels at play.

[Denali6298]

@Foxy&Co

I’m right there with you. This is a law enforcement issue, and some people can and will try to take down the competition any chance they get. Not that this is false allegations or anything of the sort, but SafeSport should be secondary to a law enforcement investigation and not function independently for these very reasons.

Part of me feels like the people who make statements such as this are probably the ones to do it. Just my experience in life.

Safe Sport is secondary to law enforcement. Safe Sport cannot send people to prison. They can ban you from showing. That’s it. And please do not say it ruins livelihoods because there are tons of people in the horse world who commit reprehensible acts all the time and still make a living in the industry. PV for example?

[skydy]

If you, re;everyone, really think about it, you will understand that trying to teach children how not to be molested is like trying to teach people how not to be murdered. The innocent can do their best, you can teach people how to take their best shot at being safe, however the predator has a mindset that defies conventional thinking.

Shifting the burden of being unmolested, or not murdered, to children or adults, is unconscionable.

Help is required. We should not be in such a “well you take your chances” society.

Why is there so much resistance to helping people that are being hurt?

[Denali6298]

@skydy

If you, re;everyone, really think about it, you will understand that trying to teach children how not to be molested is like trying to teach people how not to be murdered. The innocent can do their best, you can teach people how to take their best shot at being safe, however the predator has a mindset that defies conventional thinking.

Shifting the burden of being unmolested, or not murdered, to children or adults, is unconscionable.

Help is required. We should not be in such a “well you take your chances” society.

Why is there so much resistance to helping people that are being hurt?

Because now it’s people they know. People they look up to. People they respect. And let’s face it hunter land hasn’t really been a bastion for ethics in a while. And they wonder why people leave and/or criticize. Crap like this is WHY I left the discipline. As a re-rider I thought about coming back because I do love it. But I won’t support people in their BS.

[MyssMyst]

@Denali6298

Part of me feels like the people who make statements such as this are probably the ones to do it. Just my experience in life.

Safe Sport is secondary to law enforcement. Safe Sport cannot send people to prison. They can ban you from showing. That’s it. And please do not say it ruins livelihoods because there are tons of people in the horse world who commit reprehensible acts all the time and still make a living in the industry. PV for example?

Or we’re people who’ve seen crazy things happen to knock competitors out of the ring…

[Denali6298]

@MyssMyst

Or we’re people who’ve seen crazy things happen to knock competitors out of the ring…

Nah. If y’all are that involved y’all need to dip a toe in the real world once in a while. It’s a sport. For fun. Cuz y’all ain’t going to the Olympics.

ETA: And y’all need to grow a spine and start policing yourselves. It’s a hobby not real life.

[mareslave]

I read some references to killing horses for insurance money, here and on social media. As far as I know Rob Gage wasn’t part of the horse murders, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_murders

I understand the SafeSport case (as much as is public), I just didn’t understand the hints about insurance fraud.

My heart goes out to Rob Gage’s loved ones who are grieving and the victims who have come forward.

[caffeinated]

The references to horse killings were to point out exactly how much unethical and gross behavior people in this sport will ignore if the perpetrator is a successful and winning rider/trainer. (and also to point out that even people who have done absolutely evil things can still maintain their businesses and success in the industry)

[specifiedcupcake]

@OneGrayPony

The concern I have about SafeSport is that it works extrajudicially. You can say “well they weren’t enough, abuse still occurred” to which I say - abuse will still occur. But if there were holes in the judicial process itself, maybe we should fix those instead of slapping something on sports organizations.

Safe Sport is a legal mandate by the president (https://www.sadlersports.com/new-saf…organizations/) to fill a gap where education and supervision fail. You can teach kids names of private parts and how no one is supposed to touch you certain places, but when “God Almighty Wizard With Horses” tells you that if you touch him here, you can ride the Grand Prix horse and if you don’t you’ll never ride again… there is the trouble and that’s why there is special circumstances regarding positions of authority and misconduct. (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/s…lintridge.html)

Safe Sport is meant to give people an avenue to speak with a 3rd party that has “jurisdiction” over sports clubs without being run by people with “skin in the game”, and as I understand it they are there to “pre screen” before passing on sexual abuse or other criminal allegations to authorities. (I believe they said 24 hrs to report?) This keeps the investigation away from potential friends/clients of both offender and victim. It’s not a perfect system, but if coaches didn’t diddle kids in exchange for rides and get away with it for decades, we wouldn’t need a system, would we? No child (or adult for that matter) should feel that their bodily autonomy is the necessary price to pay to pursue their goals in sport. Predators rely on the victims keeping quiet, the culture of not rocking the boat… So in order to stop it, you have to make it OKAY and SAFE to say something.

You don’t need judicial process to sort out a ban for horse doping because horse doping is not a criminal offense. So fine, let that stay in USEF/USHJA’s hands. We all know there’s a “some animals are more equal than others” attitude in that space as well (again, what SS is trying to address). This is dealing with criminal allegations and Safe Sport is the agency appointed by law to take accusations out of the individual sport ponds into the wider ocean of legislation, to reduce harm to children and uphold ethical standards within the sporting community. It’s a privilege to be allowed to be part of a group like USEF/USHJA, not a right, and they can throw out whomever they want for whatever their bylaws say. No one is stopping offenders from operating independently of USEF.

As for the man himself… You can be an otherwise decent person and still make bad choices and hurt people, life is not so black and white. A relative of mine did some great work with the police force both before and after he molested my brothers. Hitler did a lot for Germany once. RGs family and friends are grieving the loss of who they knew, plus the shadows of the parts of him they didn’t know- and I doubt many of them are privy to every detail. I think out of respect to them, the court of public opinion should do their best to not add to the rumor mill. USEF didn’t kill Robert Gage any more than spoons make you fat- it’s sad and tragic that he felt that to be his only option but no one tied the noose for him. I would hope that if he is truly innocent, someone from his inner circle will follow through with finishing the appeals process because I hate “malicious allegations” as much as everyone else. It won’t bring him back but it will put the issue of guilt to rest for the masses.

[Max123]

I’m glad to see that this thread is much more civil than the facebook threads. I imagine if you dare to stick up for the victims on those pages there will be torches and pitchforks …

[McGurk]

As for the man himself… You can be an otherwise decent person and still make bad choices and hurt people, life is not so black and white

Exactly this. People are struggling with the idea that someone that they liked and respected could be capable of what he is accused of, and it’s adding to their anger and grief.

But human beings are not all black and white. It’s entirely possible for someone you thought of as a great horseman and a great guy to be guilty of molesting teen age girls in the past. As much as we want to make those things mutually exclusive, they’re not. Safe Sport is a convenient target for all the grief and anger this disconnect causes. Not saying that Safe Sport can’t be improved, because it undoubtedly can; but that the vitriol directed at the program comes from people who can’t reconcile the accusations with the person they knew.

To the person who asked about the relevance of the horse murder for hire scandal; I mentioned them as a rebuttal to the idea that the Safe Sport ban would ruin a career or livelihood. The people found guilty in that matter (by criminal and civil courts, no less) had long successful careers afterwards, despite the ban and all the attendant publicity. So the idea that a Safe Sport ban “ruins careers and livelihoods” is an exaggeration. It means you can’t go to rated horse shows, that’s it.

[caffeinated]

@McGurk

But human beings are not all black and white. It’s entirely possible for someone you thought of as a great horseman and a great guy to be guilty of molesting teen age girls in the past. As much as we want to make those things mutually exclusive, they’re not.

I’m going to add to this by saying it’s very likely every one of us knows SOMEONE who has at least dipped a toe in this kind of behavior, and we probably don’t even know it. I have a friend whose husband was getting into some very shady things involving children online. He was one of my favorite people - funny, nerdy, warm, just fun to be around and a great dad and musician. In a million years I never would have thought that of him. And to confuse things even more, he’s really the same person - the few times I’ve seen him, he’s been as fun, as endearing, and just generally as good to be around. My mom had the awful experience of being abused by some boys and men in her family - and she felt like she could never tell anyone because those men were so loved by everyone else, so charming, and when she even hinted at it, she was treated like she was being absurd.

People are super complicated. People are rarely pure good or pure evil. And it can be enormously difficult for folks to wrap their heads around someone they love and admire also having that bad side.

[kcmel]

@HLMom

Here’s an apropros article from Atlantic magazine about how these rape tribunals went so wrong on college campuses:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/

More relevant I think is what happened in the Dartmouth neuroscience program and how it was covered up. It is a good example of how men in power think they can get by with anything and how the system works in their favor.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Dartmouth-Allowed-3-Professors/245095

(There are many other articles if you Google. Disclaimer: I know one of the women faculty members who tried to report it and was later denied tenure).

[Midge]

@HLMom

Here’s an apropros article from Atlantic magazine about how these rape tribunals went so wrong on college campuses:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/

The main difference here is that these tribunals are in-house and are not balance of power issues or issues with minors.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Midge

The main difference here is that these tribunals are in-house and are not balance of power issues or issues with minors.

“in house” meaning handled by members of a private group as opposed to legal proceedings. This is what Safe Sport is meant to avoid- it takes it out of the sport club’s hands because those folks in medical/education/sport are not equipped or trained to deal with legal process. Hell half the folks in the past 12 pages don’t seem to understand that Safe Sport is a law and that you have no legal right to be part of USEF. And to take it further, technically USEF doesn’t even have to spend time and money investigating anything, they can just boot people out. The whole problem is the money and reputations machine made a very effective shield for a lot of people for a long time.

[MHM]

It took me quite a a while to get caught up with this thread. Thank you to all the people who have shared their experiences, both good and bad, to add context to the conversation.

My condolences to all those who have suffered a loss.