Rob Gage

[fair_judy]

@Max123

Exactly - I am heavily involved in other sports where they have to abide by Safe Sport standards and I can tell you there is none of this going on. USA Hockey, USA Soccer - nothing. Everyone abides by the rules. One thing I found really interesting was all the trainers complaining about the SUGGESTION of not communicating directly with the student. In all the years my kids have played other sports (and at a very high club level) not once did the coach communicate directly with them. It was always through the parents. If there was a question, the coach reached out to the parent or asked the player during a practice or a game to have the parent contact them. Of course not while they were actually coaching them (just so my comment is taken out of context here which seems to be the norm on this thread).

I have never seen a bigger bunch of spoiled brats stomping their feet and having tantrums. I get it, they don’t understand Safe Sport and unless you have been involved in the process, from the outside it can appear murky but come on people. I can tell you, they do not follow through on anonymous claims however, the information is taken into consideration. The accuser has to provide a SIGNIFICANT amount of detail which has to be corroborated. There is a lengthy investigation where all parties are questioned. If the accused is found guilty they can appeal. The accused is allowed representation. The arbitrators are retired judges. If you read the materials you can see that the appeal process is run through JAMs.

If someone is suspended they can’t attend USEF events - that’s it, end of story. No one goes to jail. IT IS A CLUB. Teachers, private sector employees are suspended pending the outcome of investigations. No one cries witch hunt then?? Given the amount of support being provided on Facebook for abusers, it is very easy to tell that none of these people are going to suffer financially for the pain and suffering they caused the people they abused.

As for not coming forward for 30 years. As a teenager going through something like this - say especially in the 70’s and 80’s. NO ONE would believe you. You would be labeled a trouble maker and black balled with nowhere to ride. And if anyone thinks that statement is untrue… it is currently 2019 and the victims are being drawn and quartered on Facebook as I write this. Trainers are untouchable gods - it’s pathetic.

Let’s just face the fact that many of the people on the Facebook conversations are likely pals with a lot of other individuals who could be in peril from Safe Sport. MANY may actually have been abused and are convinced that their case was “not abuse”. Two people have chosen to take their lives. I wonder how many who were abused have also chosen suicide.

[fair_judy]

@TooManyBays

It is disgusting. I hope anyone who has reported to safesport is staying far away from that trash fire right now.
But It’s the words of scared people who don’t know what’s going on. I think that in itself shows that USEF or SafeSport failed. The fact that the facts weren’t all there to begin with, and it caused people to jump to conclusions, means something went wrong.
I personally still feel like SafeSport is very vague on how they investigate, and what constitutes enough evidence to punish someone. That doesn’t mean I’m saying “away with safesport!” It just means I want more information. I feel that Knowledge is the death of confusion and terror.

I believe there is a completely seperate reason for the trash barrel fire. These “scared people” know exactly what is going on. They are associated with the very people to whom Safe Sport presents a danger. There is a systematic effort to smear Safe Sport FOR that reason, not in spite of it. This business has been the unregulated wild west for a long time. They want it to STAY THAT WAY.

I was a mandated reporter in a seperate case in the early days. I found the process absolutely competent and staffed with consumate professionals. It isn’t “vague” when you are going through it … it is absolutely comforting to know that my comments and observations would be utilized in a private and thorough process.

[Testable]

One of the people screaming the loudest against safe sport is someone who actually proves the system works for the innocent. Her husband was accused by an adult empolyee decades his junior. He was temporarily suspended but the evidence he presented made it clear that the relationship was consensual and his temporary suspension was lifted. If this system is so horrible and people get banned on the word of one person, how was he not banned for life?

[Texarkana]

I think at the heart of this matter are a lot of horse people with guilty consciences that they can’t accept.

There was a dreadful woman’s blog shared in the other SafeSport thread-- if you want to read it, go find it because I don’t want to directly contribute to her drivel getting more views. She was a woman of the Jimmy William’s era who rode in the same neighborhood as him (but not even in the same barn as him) and wrote a diatribe about how lying women slandered his good name. But in that same blog post, she tries to justify everything she experienced as a child-- the sex, the drugs, constant unprofessional behavior. In her rambling, she takes a stance along the lines of how it was all consensual; these teenagers were throwing themselves at Jimmy Williams and how dare they lie about it now because that man was a saint and just doing what they wanted.

I truly believe a lot of people who have experienced similar in the horse world tell themselves these lies because they don’t want to and/or can’t face the truth of being involved with something horrible by association. They have positive, happy memories and experiences associated with the accused and can’t resolve that atrocities may have been occurring in tandem.

It seems in every one of these cases, there are similar stages of grief people go through:
-blatant denial (“I know the person and they would never do that”)
-victim blaming (“An ex did this to take them down because they are jealous”)
-acceptance of a benevolent explanation (“Ok, so maybe they had a consensual relationship with a minor one time, they still don’t deserve this!”)
-blame placing (“They were just a product of the times! You can’t hold people accountable for mistakes they made in their past!”)
-attacking the institution (“This is a witch hunt! SafeSport is flawed!”)

I wonder how many of these people ever reach acceptance; the above stages get played out publicly, but we rarely see the acceptance stage.

The #metoo movement has been a much needed awakening. As a society, now we need to figure out how to move forward. I’m glad we are recognizing the problem and identifying the guilty parties, but what’s the next step? Currently, we’re trying to erase these predators’ names from history. I don’t think that’s realistic for the long run; you can’t deny they influenced the fabric of our lives. So now what?

[Bogie]

@oneequestrienne

Actually, that’s not true. I know a mother who has let her daughter be coached by him. She never let her out of her sight or be alone with him, not even let him sit next to her daughter…but she knew his history not as a victim but as the childhood friend of one.

As a mother, I can’t imagine believing that it is the moral thing to do to continue to support – both financially and by choosing someone as their trainer – someone whom they knew had either killed horses for insurance or sexually abused a minor. It is never worth perpetuating the career of someone who chose that path. Actually, you don’t have to be a mother to be morally outraged. I have never understood how quickly people moved beyond the insurance killing scandal.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Max123

Exactly - I am heavily involved in other sports where they have to abide by Safe Sport standards and I can tell you there is none of this going on. USA Hockey, USA Soccer - nothing. Everyone abides by the rules. One thing I found really interesting was all the trainers complaining about the SUGGESTION of not communicating directly with the student. In all the years my kids have played other sports (and at a very high club level) not once did the coach communicate directly with them. It was always through the parents. If there was a question, the coach reached out to the parent or asked the player during a practice or a game to have the parent contact them. Of course not while they were actually coaching them (just so my comment is taken out of context here which seems to be the norm on this thread).

I have never seen a bigger bunch of spoiled brats stomping their feet and having tantrums. I get it, they don’t understand Safe Sport and unless you have been involved in the process, from the outside it can appear murky but come on people. I can tell you, they do not follow through on anonymous claims however, the information is taken into consideration. The accuser has to provide a SIGNIFICANT amount of detail which has to be corroborated. There is a lengthy investigation where all parties are questioned. If the accused is found guilty they can appeal. The accused is allowed representation. The arbitrators are retired judges. If you read the materials you can see that the appeal process is run through JAMs.

If someone is suspended they can’t attend USEF events - that’s it, end of story. No one goes to jail. IT IS A CLUB. Teachers, private sector employees are suspended pending the outcome of investigations. No one cries witch hunt then?? Given the amount of support being provided on Facebook for abusers, it is very easy to tell that none of these people are going to suffer financially for the pain and suffering they caused the people they abused.

As for not coming forward for 30 years. As a teenager going through something like this - say especially in the 70’s and 80’s. NO ONE would believe you. You would be labeled a trouble maker and black balled with nowhere to ride. And if anyone thinks that statement is untrue… it is currently 2019 and the victims are being drawn and quartered on Facebook as I write this. Trainers are untouchable gods - it’s pathetic.

I have kids who do sports other than riding, and had the EXACT same reaction you did. What is with all the coaches freaking out that they can’t text juniors? I don’t want coaches emailing or texting my kids. Period. Much less engaged on social media with my kids.

Yes… my kids are younger. 8 and 11. The 11 year old is still very limited with respect to using phones… and social media is a complete NO. But I have 18, 17 and 16 year old nieces and nephews. 2 of them are serious athletes, competing in their respective sports at a high level and on travel teams that compete nationally. That particular niece has a mother who is currently a high school coach and was an NCAA Div 1 athlete on a national championship team in the late 90’s. And that niece’s father, my brother in law, was a high school and college athlete and played his sport at a professional level for a few years. Now he teaches high school biology as a full time job, coaches the high school varsity team, and has a small business running lacrosse clinics and camps in the summer.

I actually asked them both what they thought of all this texting between coaches and minors. And if my 16 year old niece was texting coaches or on social media with them. Lacrosse (that’s their family sport) is an outlier because it’s NOT an Olympic Sport and not covered by Safe Sport (I don’t think). But US Lacrosse does put out guidelines. And the whole world of “for profit” club lacrosse for high school athletes is cut throat and dysfunctional in many many ways. Regardless… Both my sister and brother in law thought the whole notion of adult coaches engaging with minors via text and social media was a REALLY bad idea. Period. There are team oriented social media accounts and team pictures get shared there. And mothers and dads of kids on various teams are connected to one another, as are some of the kids who are teammates. But minors being personally linked to an adult coaches personal account on social media?!? NO!

Another thought on the whole notion of coaches personally texting minor students. Especially hunter jumper coaches. There is a lot of money in our sport. Horses cost money. Shows cost money. Lessons cost money. As a mother, I have already had to have tough talks quite recently with my 11 year old sonand inform him that “no, we aren’t doing that travel team, nor the associated tournament this summer. Even though many of your friends are.” In this case, it was more about wanting a more balanced summer for the whole family. The coach of the travel program is a guy neither my son nor my husband and I much care for… which was ALSO part of the decision. All the same, setting limits with a child is not easy. And we aren’t even into the teen years yet.

If I had an adult coach texting my child, especially a teen, and there was any sort of talk about the child needing to take more lessons, the child going to an upcoming show that I as the parent, hadn’t already agreed to… or how it might be nice for the child to have the chance to lease or purchase a particular horse in the barn that the trainer was trying to market for a different client… uggh.

Call me crazy, but I think that all the protests on the part of those in the hunter jumper community who make a living coaching barns full of juniors and these limits on texting directly between minors and the coach has just as much to do with how it might cramp a few folks business model - because emotionally manipulating young athletes and their families can be lucrative when it comes to the world of “for profit” youth sports.

[Belmont]

@Jealoushe

Notice no matter how many times the haters of Safe Sport are told its not USEF doing the leg work, but U.S Center for Safe Sport, they choose to ignore it and keep complaining about USEF?

If you don’t like Safe Sport, at least take your anger out on the right organization.

Some ugly truth was about to come to the surface, and unfortunately, some people would rather be dead than face the music.

This.

[NoSuchPerson]

@TooManyBays

It seems as though the burden of proof needed is just an accusation.

I don’t understand why people keep saying things like this. There have been multiple posts in this thread and previous discussions from people who have been personally involved in SafeSport investigations and they have made it absolutely clear that “just an accusation” is far from meeting the “burden of proof.”

I truly do not understand the outrage against SafeSport. I’ve read the rules, I’ve read about SafeSport’s standard practices and I’ve read posts here from people who have been involved in SafeSport investigations. It seems pretty clear to me that the investigations are conducted by professionals and are completely confidential in the early stages. I’ve got absolutely no problem with any of that.

[TooManyBays]

@NoSuchPerson

I don’t understand why people keep saying things like this. There have been multiple posts in this thread and previous discussions from people who have been personally involved in SafeSport investigations and they have made it absolutely clear that “just an accusation” is far from meeting the “burden of proof.”

I truly do not understand the outrage against SafeSport. I’ve read the rules, I’ve read about SafeSport’s standard practices and I’ve read posts here from people who have been involved in SafeSport investigations. It seems pretty clear to me that the investigations are conducted by professionals and are completely confidential in the early stages. I’ve got absolutely no problem with any of that.

Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that we have to hear how safesport is conducted through people who have been involved, and not through safesport itself? Why is safesport so secretive on its process? why can’t the guidelines be clearly spelled out somewhere, so people can stop guessing as to what’s going on?

[Tiramit]

SafeSportProcedureInfographic.pdf I believe someone posted this infographic explaining the SafeSport process earlier: [INDENT]
Under preliminary it says:

Intake process: Preliminary information gathering and initial contact with involved parties. Interim measures may also be imposed as necessary, and if so, Respondent may request an interim measures hearing at any time.

Under investigation it says:[/INDENT]
[INDENT]1. Assign a trained investigator.

2. Conducts interviews, gathers all relevant information and evidence.

3. Prepares formal investigation report for Director’s Decision.[/INDENT]

Sure it doesn’t share what size and font choice the final report is in (how dare they!), but it does give a decent overview of their entire process. I’m guessing we’d receive the same lists from a law enforcement entity.

[adlgel]

This link to the SafeSport Practices and Procedures seems to lay out pretty clearly what their process is - this does not seem very secretive to me.

https://www.safesport.org/files/index/tag/policies-procedures

As I read these posts and others on Facebook I think it would be helpful to use appropriate language. No one is convicted by SafeSport nor do they find someone “guilty” in the criminal sense. They determine whether or not someone violated the code of conduct and if the code was violated they impose a sanction on the individual. And if SafeSport sanctions someone, that sanction must be reported to and upheld by that sport’s governing body.

[Ghazzu]

@TooManyBays

Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that we have to hear how safesport is conducted through people who have been involved, and not through safesport itself? Why is safesport so secretive on its process? why can’t the guidelines be clearly spelled out somewhere, so people can stop guessing as to what’s going on?

There have been multiple posted links.
Apparently you haven’t bothered to read them
Perhaps you’d like Safe sport to put out a narrated version for you to listen to?

[Texarkana]

@TooManyBays

Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that we have to hear how safesport is conducted through people who have been involved, and not through safesport itself? Why is safesport so secretive on its process? why can’t the guidelines be clearly spelled out somewhere, so people can stop guessing as to what’s going on?

I found the process to be spelled out quite clearly in their policies.

I understand that some of the industry thinks evidence should be public, with redacted names. There is a strong reason that can’t be done, though. The tendency to blame the victim is one of the chief reasons sexual misconduct is so hard to legally prosecute. As much as we want to be able to make our own decisions and not trust a “secretive” mandate, publishing accusations would jeopardize this process, too. People talk, confidentiality would be breached when someone figured it out. I also think it would be more damning for the innocent if evidence was made public; false accusations would be out there forever.

[Denali6298]

@Ghazzu

There have been multiple posted links.
Apparently you haven’t bothered to read them
Perhaps you’d like Safe sport to put out a narrated version for you to listen to?

Ooh! Narrated by Patrick Stewart?

[dags]

@HLMom

I don’t know how there can be a trainer whose training business is unaffected by a Safesport sanction, but I guess if you know someone who has finagled this, maybe it is possible.

@ynl063w

I am mortified for you that you seem to have no clue with regards to how a trainer can avoid a SafeSport sanction. The way for trainers to avoid SafeSport sanctions is for every single one of them to avoid sexual contact with minors.

Sorry, couldn’t let this slide given that it seems to be where this thread seriously derailed its previous civility.

Read again @ynl063w, your interpretation is not remotely what she said. The sanction will (undeniably) affect business. She did not say a business could not avoid being sanctioned. Anywhere. Ever.

Which made this:

@ynl063w

Words matter, and if someone who is not capable of using words in the way that he intends still insists on posting those words publicly, he cannot blame the readers for understanding those words in the way they are written, even if that is not the way the writer intended them to be understood because of his ignorance of the English language.

In other words, if you can’t accurately convey your opinion with words, don’t post your supposed opinion on the internet, or be prepared to get called out on your ignorance.

Ridiculously uncalled for.

[Max123]

@TooManyBays

Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that we have to hear how safesport is conducted through people who have been involved, and not through safesport itself? Why is safesport so secretive on its process? why can’t the guidelines be clearly spelled out somewhere, so people can stop guessing as to what’s going on?

The whole process is is on the Safe Sport page. It’s there if you want to read it. People generally don’t want to though unless they are in the midst of the process.

https://safesport.org/files/details/109

https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

[Max123]

@Denali6298

Ooh! Narrated by Patrick Stewart?

hahaha or Morgan Freeman … I think what people really mean when they say the process is confusing is “how can this person who I thought I knew so well be accused of something like this?” They aren’t confused by the process but rather how can someone they know and trust be accused. In their head - it has to be a problem with Safe Sport and their process - couldn’t possibly be that the accused is guilty …

[Denali6298]

@Max123

hahaha or Morgan Freeman … I think what people really mean when they say the process is confusing is “how can this person who I thought I knew so well be accused of something like this?” They aren’t confused by the process but rather how can someone they know and trust be accused. In their head - it has to be a problem with Safe Sport and their process - couldn’t possibly be that the accused is guilty …

You’re probably right. I do not understand that thinking so get frustrated. One of my friends and mentors got arrested for a bunch of disgusting acts with minors. One was an infant. The FBI had been watching him. I blocked all contact and never looked back when I found out. It doesn’t matter to me that he was “a good guy.”

[kenyarider]

I read the Safesport policies and procedures. It is a pretty standard due process system. Maybe it could be tweaked a bit by providing the accused the chance to confront the accuser through questioning but there is an option for arbitration and an appeal. What more do folks want? I have spent my career representing accused persons and I can tell you the most dangerous (manipulative and skilled) ones were very easy to work with, and very polite. Why? Because if you are going to do very bad things, especially to children, you’d better be good at getting and keeping people’s trust. The fact that people like or respect a sex offender is a measure of how good the sex offender is at covering up their bad acts. Look at how popular Bill Cosby was. I am sorry for Rob Gage’s family and friends. But I am not going to be sorry that someone or more than one someone complained about his acts. He had gone through the process, he was appealing. Anyone facing a harsh sentence (or sanction in Gage’s case) is under a cloud, ask any person charged with a crime, but that’s the way our system works. Would it be better if the process could be quicker so the cloud is dissipated, sure, but some things take time to figure out. If I were Mr. Gage’s advisor as Safesport calls it, I would want time, time to investigate, time to interview, time to consider options. Speed in these cases is not my friend. Just saying. . . Also, USEF did not invent Safesport, it was foisted on USEF. Complain to Safesport if you don’t like it. USEF can’t do anything but comply or disappear.

[jetsmom]

@Denali6298

@RugBug Jim Giorgio is the guy. Want the news article from the Current to verify? I’m not scared to name names. Not sure why you questioned that. And no I don’t need to understand numbers. All I need to know is 50 of those 800 support him.

And before you say it, I know exactly who he is being born and raised in CT.

ETA: My communication skills need refinement but I think you are trying to find reasons to be mad at another adult who questions your opinions and therefore looks at you sideways with no remorse. I don’t cater to the kinder world when people oppose things like Safe sport without being an adult and asking the appropriate people questions. I also expect adults to be able to do their own research. My standards are high I know. I just don’t suffer fools lightly.

And realize victims are reading and contributing to this thread. You are the one who needs to measure your words carefully. You are the one who is screaming “BUT!!!” at the top of your lungs.

This is why people need to be banned for life, and speak their names, so people are aware of it…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://turtleboysports.com/horse-farm-non-profit-hosting-easter-egg-kids-fundraiser-and-all-the-money-goes-towards-a-convicted-child-sex-offender-whose-horse-farm-burnt-down/&ved=2ahUKEwiIruS9--viAhVQbKwKHYvCDl0QFjADegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1CX8sFZPU_iOdKAuzZLIGh&cshid=1560618282289