I hear what you’re saying. But, if anyone is put in a position where they are told sleep with me or else, or if you don’t this will happen, the onus is on the person making those ultimatums. Minors and older teens will be more inclined to comply than an adult. To that age group acceptance out weighs better choices sometimes.
And his daughter is not an older teen so his statement is revolting.
The power dynamic is the problem. To not blame a 30 year old for breaking the law is absolutely mind blowing if the state law says 18 is the age of consent. To put that solely on the girl is repulsive. What I thought I knew at 17 is way less than what I actually know 20 years later.
I’m not ‘hinting’ at anything. I’m flat out saying straight guys at the horse shows have a far wider and deeper talent pool to choose from than they would have if they weren’t straight guys at horse shows.
See, this is where it gets frustrating to have a discussion with you. You attribute things to people that aren’t what they said.
I have never said I see “gaping holes in the process,” or anything remotely similar to that. What I have said is that it is important that any process like Safesport be fair to both the accuser and the accused. I have pointed out that sometimes, organizations with the very best of intentions (like colleges) tilt so far in favor of supporting the accuser that they can end up being unfair to the accused. This isn’t just my opinion–it has been widely written up in the press, like The Atlantic series I linked. In addition to the college cases, a similar thing may have happened with the investigators in the now-famous McMartin preschool cases–they were so biased in favor of supporting the children that they ignored inconsistencies and (to use your word) “gaping holes” in the children’s narratives. (And to be clear, I don’t blame the children for that–they were preschoolers. The problem was the overzealous investigators).
I would not form a judgment about Safesport or its investigators until I had more information, as explained above. I would encourage Safesport to evaluate its own processes, publicize the findings, and make improvements where/if necessary.
If one uses a handful of highly publicized mishandled cases to say an entire system doesn’t work, then I take that as someone who sees gaping holes. Those cases are out of how many? That’s the perspective I think you are missing. How many cases of sexual misconduct are there vs. the ones that are improperly mishandled. Also, cases can be thrown out over procedural issues. Criminal trials never find someone innocent. They find them not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Here’s something else I pondered. The H/J end of horse sports is chock full of beautiful women with money who are willing to overlook a lot in order to have a man who is also into horses. There is a dearth of attractive straight men in the business. A straight guy in the horse business doesn’t have to try very hard or offer very much in order to far overshoot what would be his normal range out in the real world.
So why? Why even go there?
Respectfully, I think you’re misunderstanding the motivation. That’s kind of like saying “with all the beautiful women in the world, why do guys want other guys?” It’s because of the way they are. (NOTE: I am most decidedly not saying there is anything wrong with guys wanting other guys in a consensual relationship.) Gay or straight is irrelevant. The key word here is consensual.
People who hit on children don’t want beautiful willing women - at least not exclusively. They want children. They are pedophiles. For whatever reason, they don’t want beautiful women. They want young girls. I don’t pretend to understand why. Maybe it’s power, whatever. But there is something very wrong with that, because these are children, so this is a non-consensual relationship by its very definition.
Unfortunately, coaches in the horse world are in the position of having a virtually unlimited supply of children available, so they have a particular duty to NOT go there. They are in a position of trust and they have a duty NOT to abuse that trust. Obviously, not everybody can measure up to that standard and that’s why SafeSport is necessary.
I have some problems with SafeSport’s implementation - I think many of us do. But this whole debate in the wake of Rob Gage’s suicide has blown the lid right off and shown us exactly why something had to be done.
I think it’s also worth noting that a lot of times, it’s not overt pressure like “you need to do this or else…” - it’s more subtle grooming than that. The victim may well understand that the good rides, the favorable treatment, etc, is linked to the attention received from the trainer/coach, but there’s also quite a lot of effort put in by the coach/mentor/perpetrator to make the child really feel special or like they have some kind of special link. The victim may even consciously feel it is something she (or he) wants or consents to, without really understanding how much effort went into creating and grooming them for that response.
That makes the whole “choices” thing pretty sketchy to argue - yes, I believe that teenagers can have agency with their relationship choices. And grooming isn’t something that only older predators do. But drawing age lines (with approptiate romeo/Juliet exceptiions) is often the best way we have to create some sort of legal definition to work from.
But it’s incredibly hard for me to imagine having a teenage daughter and wanting to blame this sort of situation on her “choices” - I’m hoping that may be poorly worded, and what was meant was “I’d have to work with my daughter to educate her, and help her better discern when she’s being manipulated by someone in a position of power over her or purely for his own gratification, whether that person is older, a coach, or simply a manipulative and crappy relationship partner”
Good Lord, people! Of course I understand the motivation. The point is, there is no reason to go for the young girls, unless you are fixated on the young girls. If you’re fixated on the young girls, there is a problem.
This is the exact argument for a legal line in the sand. I’m good with 18. I really don’t care to analyze the sexual inclinations one way or another of kids age 16 to 18, and how the biology is similar and it’s kind of murky. That’s not the issue to me. The issue is the 30 year old man who is creeping around a 16 to 18 year old girl. I’d like a clear line on EXACTLY when we can charge an asshole like that with statutory rape and prosecute h and put him on a sex offender registry. 18 sounds good to me. If we lower that age, then more of these creeps will slip through the cracks. Enough already do. No thanks.
As to what we teach the next generation in order to “empower” them to own their choices. Well, I am raising a son who is taught on a daily basis that you need to be a young man who follows rules, and looks out for others. We teach our daughter the same thing. And when the kids get older, we will teach them that intimate relationships are something only two people who love each other should be involved in. And these are the laws regarding consenting to intimacy and age, and consenting to intimacy if you or the other person is inebriated or on drugs (I’m more worried about that issue, frankly). And anyone who loves you in the way you deserve to be loved will WAIT to be intimate until you both are old enough, and sober enough. And you should do the same for anyone you love. WAIT until you both are old enough, and sober enough.
Teaching young people and kids anything other than that, such as teaching a young girl that she needs to be careful if she’s feeling infatuated at 17 with a 30 year old man because HER choices might get HIM in trouble?
Give me a break. That’s not what I am teaching my daughter. And I’m definitely not teaching my son that if I fail as a parent, and he sleeps with an underage girl when he’s 30, that this is an acceptable excuse for his behavior. I will love him no matter what, but I will not excuse behavior that I know I raised him to know is WRONG.
And I call bullshit. At the end of the day we are there to ride and compete. Unless he is under 30 and has the maturity of a third grader on an 8-ball of coke.
Many of my guy friends could give a crap about the women who ride. They are there for other reasons. And, amazingly, when women have chased after them, they went to their hotel or trailer single.
Maybe i I hang with a better class of horsemen? But what you and others are suggesting is not my experience. I’ve never had a woman chase after me because I ride.
Where do most people meet the people they date? Work and shared interests. How are your friends ‘a better class of horsemen’ because they don’t date people who share their interest? You have no horse friends who are romantically involved with other horse friends?
I think there is a component involved in all this that goes beyond just the POWER component.
Some people find engaging in “illicit” sexual activity EXCITING. It is a component when people have affairs. It is a component when people engage in casual sex with others they barely know.
It was ILLEGAL to have sexual with underage girls in California in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s. Just like it is now. And in RGs case, it seems many people do agree he did this multiple times. In a fairly open manner… he had underage “girlfriends” pretty publicly.
Some people who are excited by illicit sexual activity are the sort of people who like pushing limits in general in other areas of life as well. Highly driven, competitive athletes most certainly fit the profile of people who like to push limits. Which is not to say that they are ALL prone to illegal relationships with minors… just that it’s all part of a broader picture to be aware of.
perhaps for the same reason I’ve never dated a horsey man: too much crazy in the horse world, and I want to spend all the money on MY horses, not his. hahahaha
Look, I think he’s too caught up in the ‘but RG is my friend and was always a good guy to me’ aspect of the situation. He lost another friend/trainer (depression, nothing to do with SS or anything like that) to suicide last year as well, so I’m sure that compounds the grief.
He’s talking about the future for his daughter. Not the present. Here is the full post:
"Somebody asked - white if it was your daughter? And this is what I said:
I’ve said it a couple or three times and it’s like it’s an answer that’s hiding in the open.
I listened to a dear friend with two lovely teenage girls and how she was raising her daughters and how she sent them to a camp where for a five day retreat they talked not just about the birds and the bees but about the different expectations and the different aftermath of affection attention and intercourse.
How lives are planned out and acted upon based on those kind of momentary decisions.
And how after intercourse boys and girls may feel very differently.
And how certain precautions can protect them from the greatest ramifications of exploring their own power to attract and their own vulnerability to be attracted and manipulated.
We’re going to talk about that stuff, and she’s halfway to a black belt so she’s going to know that she has the physical ability to enforce decisions that she makes.
So when she comes to me and says “I made a mistake and it doesn’t feel good” I can say, “good for you, now you can recognize better choices for yourself and there will be better experiences ahead. And you will make more mistakes that will point you to even better experiences, and knowing what you want in life…”
And she will maintain the power over her life and never give it away…
He clearly believes it just won’t happen to his daughter and that if it does, she will have the wherewithal and ability to avoid it.
He obviously hasn’t thought through what his comment is implying about other girls/women, potentially including his wife, who couldn’t avoid the situation. It’s a myopic focus, colored by the grief for his friend and his own belief that he can teach his daughter to not fall prey to a predator.
We have been saying that parents need to educate their children on appropriateness, right? Well, he’s potentially overemphasizing that factor and his ability raise her to protect herself.
I understand that the code allows for past acts to be brought up. But I think the public interest behind that is for the desire to prevent ongoing and future conduct, which is one of the major factors listed in considering the type of sanction. In contrast, the implementation in the JW case blows that up because he was long dead. So, I think it is a fair question to ask to what extent can past conduct (before the law) can be used, such as what kind of past conduct (would it have been illegal at the time or not), and for what purpose it is used–are we preventing the respondent from causing future harm (and what else might need to be shown?), or are we sending a message, or something else? If it’s for a purpose other than to prevent future harm, are any other legal concerns raised?
I don’t know the answer…just think it’s an interesting question. It does seem that the law is intended to be civil and not punitive (no one goes to prison), so it shouldn’t matter if its ex post facto. But clearly there are a lot of people crying about the punishment. The right to practice a profession may be denied to one who was convicted of an offense before the statute was enacted if the offense reasonably may be regarded as a continuing disqualification for the profession. And of course, Safe Sport only does this with respect to the part of practicing the job that is under the governance of the NGB. Still makes me wonder why someone already deceased got put on the list and so opens the door for questioning the specific implementation of the law.
IMO the teacher/ minor student component makes it more then just dating random people with similar interests. That trainer often provides opportunities for the minor to go further in the sport and some get sucked into going along with it. Unfortunately, so do some of their mothers. Happens in other sports and other fields like acting, modeling etc.
It happens… Just because it doesn’t happen in your circle, or more likely, you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
I wish what you said was true. It hasn’t been my experience that it is. So at least for some part of the population, what you said about men not caring and/or being interested in the women around them in the horse world, is not true…
Where else but the horse world do parents drop off young girls unsupervised at barns, in pants that leave little to the imagination, entrust adult men with their young girls and not even think for a second of the unthinkable?
Midge’s point was that it’s not as if single women are a rare commodity in the sport world, so why stoop to becoming a predator when there are so many options out there? Although I agree with other posters, that, for most predators it is not about having a relationship with someone else, it’s about power and control over your victim.
There’s high class and low class people in every discipline, sport, and corner of the world. I have certainly seen what you say is not happening… And I’ve been hit on and/or come onto by men as an underage WS… but luckily I had very involved and ever-present parents and that definitely cut into the “alone time” most predators need. I don’t doubt for a second my parent’s constant involvement in activities that would usually leave me unsupervised for long periods of time prevented some serious things.
I worked as a working student for a BNT that has had multiple people since step forward since the #Me Too movement. I never saw that side of him, personally… but I have heard the stories, and I know they are true. Just because he never did anything to me, does not mean he never did anything to other girls that worked with me. I have been wondering when he would show up on Safe Sport.
This is clearly a much-needed enterprise. SafeSport is not perfect, but its’ institution has made it abundantly clear there is a fairly deep rooted and in my opinion, insidious problem within our sport.
So here is my thing with the whole “age” difference…when I was 18, I had a relationship with a man almost 15 years older than me. It didn’t last very long, for different reasons than just “age difference”, but I knew exactly what I was getting into and it was my choice. Ten years later, I still don’t have any regrets about that and don’t think it was a decision made out of “immaturity”. He is married now, I have a boyfriend I love, and we are still good friends. My parents weren’t thrilled with it, but they knew that I had always done better with people older than me and that I made good decisions.
BUT, the difference is we were on equal footing. He was the best friend of my best friend’s husband (my best friend is ten years older than me, met through the horses). If he was, say, a supervisor at work, or a trainer I really wanted to respect me, it might have been a different story. I think age is just one factor to it. And while to me the difference between 17 and 18 really wasn’t that much, the difference between 16 and 18 was much greater. I have no issues with 18 being the “cut off” age. The problem is really when it becomes a situation where one person holds more power than the other or is in a position of authority.
