Rob Gage

[Keep_it_Simple]

I am curious if anyone knows a person on the banned list that has said they did not have sexual relations with a minor, or if they are just stating that “times were different back then”.

I am also curious if SafeSport made the information public, such as multiple reports of (describe the behavior), would it make a difference, would they support a ban or would people still have the same opinion of that person. I have people say so and so is a b*tch, but I have had a different experience. My opinion is based on my experience. Now, if there is evidence, how much is needed and what is needed to sway an opinion?

[oneequestrienne]

@RugBug

Look, I think he’s too caught up in the ‘but RG is my friend and was always a good guy to me’ aspect of the situation. He lost another friend/trainer (depression, nothing to do with SS or anything like that) to suicide last year as well, so I’m sure that compounds the grief.

He’s talking about the future for his daughter. Not the present. Here is the full post:

He clearly believes it just won’t happen to his daughter and that if it does, she will have the wherewithal and ability to avoid it.

He obviously hasn’t thought through what his comment is implying about other girls/women, potentially including his wife, who couldn’t avoid the situation. It’s a myopic focus, colored by the grief for his friend and his own belief that he can teach his daughter to not fall prey to a predator.

We have been saying that parents need to educate their children on appropriateness, right? Well, he’s potentially overemphasizing that factor and his ability raise her to protect herself.

I agree.

That’s not his only comment. You have to read further down to see some of his responses to others. 😳

[Texarkana]

Throwing this out there…

I wonder if lack of education/training plays a part in the fact that some horsemen & women are unable to accept that there are certain professional boundaries that should not be broached.

I mean, anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a horse trainer. And if you have enough of the right ribbons to display alongside that shingle, you will get business regardless of anything else.

For just about any other job, you have to go through training of some sort where professional boundaries are established. Yet there is nothing mandatory for horses and trainers. I think most of us would agree that attempts to establish equestrian education and certifications in this country have not been particularly successful nor of any great value.

As I type this, I realize it’s not a perfect theory seeing as how the first person I saw sharing the SafeSport hate on social media is a highly educated individual.

[RugBug]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Teaching young people and kids anything other than that, such as teaching a young girl that she needs to be careful if she’s feeling infatuated at 17 with a 30 year old man because HER choices might get HIM in trouble?
.

Um, that is NOT what he said.

He’s focused on the area that he can control: what he can teach his daughter to help her avoid the situation and protect herself. It needs to happen.

As for whether he thinks it would be his daughter’s fault if something did happen? I have no idea.

He’s in denial about RG…and he may stay that way…or with some time, he may rethink. It’s sad that his grief is playing out on FB.

[RAyers]

@beowulf

It happens… Just because it doesn’t happen in your circle, or more likely, you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I wish what you said was true. It hasn’t been my experience that it is. So at least for some part of the population, what you said about men not caring and/or being interested in the women around them in the horse world, is not true…

Where else but the horse world do parents drop off young girls unsupervised at barns, in pants that leave little to the imagination, entrust adult men with their young girls and not even think for a second of the unthinkable?

Midge’s point was that it’s not as if single women are a rare commodity in the sport world, so why stoop to becoming a predator when there are so many options out there? Although I agree with other posters, that, for most predators it is not about having a relationship with someone else, it’s about power and control over your victim.

There’s high class and low class people in every discipline, sport, and corner of the world. I have certainly seen what you say is not happening… And I’ve been hit on and/or come onto by men as an underage WS… but luckily I had very involved and ever-present parents and that definitely cut into the “alone time” most predators need. I don’t doubt for a second my parent’s constant involvement in activities that would usually leave me unsupervised for long periods of time prevented some serious things.

I worked as a working student for a BNT that has had multiple people since step forward since the #Me Too movement. I never saw that side of him, personally… but I have heard the stories, and I know they are true. Just because he never did anything to me, does not mean he never did anything to other girls that worked with me. I have been wondering when he would show up on Safe Sport.

This is clearly a much-needed enterprise. SafeSport is not perfect, but its’ institution has made it abundantly clear there is a fairly deep rooted and in my opinion, insidious problem within our sport.

A predator will be a predator regardless of who is about. The argument
that there are plenty of single older women is a complete red herring. Midge makes the assumption that what has happened was a choice because the man was unwilling to consider older women.

And in my circle of close guy friends who ride, only one is married to a horsewoman. This includes guys who went to the WC and Olympics. We were always more interested in riding and competing.

[RugBug]

@RainWeasley

I have no issues with 18 being the “cut off” age. The problem is really when it becomes a situation where one person holds more power than the other or is in a position of authority.

Because I was the one that brought this up…and I want to be super clear…

I also do not have a problem with 18 being a cut off age…there sas to be one, 18 might as well be it.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RugBug - I think I confused some of the post you were specifically referring to with a different post I saw him make about empowerment, the young women who had relationships with him ages ago being in it consensually, and only bringing it up not to settle old scores.

You did quote the full post later, and I totally understand you pushing back on my interpretation and clarifying.

With that said… what he is saying is still problematic and he is in denial, and he is grieving. He seems to believe he can “empower” his child into not being a victim. I wish life were that simple… it’s not. And it sends an implicit message that people who WERE victims somehow made a mistake and that is why they ended up being a victim.

I think that’s a terrible message. And it’s sad that he doesn’t quite seem to get that. And I really do wonder what is up with that, given that his wife is a victim. And the story that ran in the San Diego paper about what she went through was heartbreaking, and the man who treated her that way was evil . So the entire context makes my head spin, and wonder what is up, and hurt for his wife.

Just my take.

[beowulf]

@RAyers

A predator will be a predator regardless of who is about. The argument
that there are plenty of single older women is a complete red herring. Midge makes the assumption that what has happened was a choice because the man was unwilling to consider older women.

And in my circle of close guy friends who ride, only one is married to a horsewoman. This includes guys who went to the WC and Olympics. We were always more interested in riding and competing.

And in my circle as a working student, many men were interested on preying on young girls/women… and it was not as if I hung out in “low class” barns, either.

I agree that a predator will be a predator… but there are plenty that are both predators and also pursue adult women… In some way they maybe are wired that way, but I also believe that it is more about opportunity and engaging in illicit behavior, than something truly “wired wrong” in the brain. It is totally a choice to act on those desires and molest or attack young girls/boys.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Keep it Simple

I am curious if anyone knows a person on the banned list that has said they did not have sexual relations with a minor, or if they are just stating that “times were different back then”.

I am also curious if SafeSport made the information public, such as multiple reports of (describe the behavior), would it make a difference, would they support a ban or would people still have the same opinion of that person. I have people say so and so is a b*tch, but I have had a different experience. My opinion is based on my experience. Now, if there is evidence, how much is needed and what is needed to sway an opinion?

There actually IS a good case that fits exactly what you are getting at.

Randall Cates. He has said in comments on Facebook he DIDN’T have sexual with the girl. And she backed his story up and refused to cooperate with the prosecutors. The parents apparently found LOTS AND LOTS of sexualized messages though, and it was obvious he was grooming her, and it had been going o for a few years beginning in her young teens. They also found diary entries the girl had made. The texts and diary made the parents believe the relationship was consummated and call the police. The police investigated, and according to public info agreed with the parents… but the girl refused to cooperate with the prosecutor. So they did not charge Case with the crime. However, the whole thing was brought to USEFs attention in 2015, when there were Safe Sport rules, but no Center yet, or independent investigators. USEF had a hearing and reviewed the evidence, and gave Cates a lifetime ban.

Here’s a link to USEFs statement concerning their decision.

https://www.usef.org/content/documents/rulings/CatesPenaltyPublication.pdf

[RugBug]

@oneequestrienne

That’s not his only comment. You have to read further down to see some of his responses to others. 😳

Ugh. I don’t want to. (Partly because he rambles and isn’t always the most linear in his thoughts…but also because he can’t see past his nose on this.)

Even the initial question, he can’t help but think it was an older teen. He seems to be a good father, if he thought someone was messing with his daughter NOW, it would change his mind right quick on what he’s saying. At least I hope it would

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Keep it Simple - the last link didn’t work. This has been annoying me all day. Hopefully this link to the report on the Randall Case decision works.

CatesPenaltyPublication.pdf (74.1 KB)

[Midge]

@RAyers

. Midge makes the assumption that what has happened was a choice because the man was unwilling to consider older women.

Uh, that was NOT Midge’s point. Midge’s point was there are plenty of single women to choose from. If you’re stooping into the junior ranks for your dating opportunities, there is a problem.

[Midge]

@RAyers

And in my circle of close guy friends who ride, only one is married to a horsewoman. This includes guys who went to the WC and Olympics. We were always more interested in riding and competing.

Does that guy know you consider him a lower class horseman?

[RugBug]

@RAyers

A predator will be a predator regardless of who is about.

I feel like Midge’s argument is exactly the same as what you posted. above. A predator will be a predator no matter who is about. Perhaps you didn’t like how it was phrased, but it’s the same argument.

There are plenty of other eligible, legal options about…so the person that chooses the ineligible/illegal is plain and simply, predatory.

[enjoytheride]

@Midge

Does that guy know you consider him a lower class horseman?

I think the issue is that it can appear that you are implying that horsewomen don’t care what kind of a slimeball a man is when he’s on a horse. It’s a direct insult to men that aren’t slimeballs, and implies that the only reason they got a woman is because they ride. I think that’s an unfair thing to say and understand how Rayers is insulted.

The general suggestion that there is no reason for a horseman to have relations with a young girl because older women are throwing themselves at him goes the same way. A predator will be a predator no matter what.

[bip]

@RugBug

I feel like Midge’s argument is exactly the same as what you posted. above. A predator will be a predator no matter who is about. Perhaps you didn’t like how it was phrased, but it’s the same argument.

Agree. And one way you can tell someone is a predator is that there are eligible adult partners all around, yet they are grooming/pursuing children (because they don’t want a partnership or a relationship, they want an object to satisfy their every desire with none of that pesky self-determination an adult brings to the table).

[anotherera]

@fordtraktor

perhaps for the same reason I’ve never dated a horsey man: too much crazy in the horse world, and I want to spend all the money on MY horses, not his. hahahaha

And, since the age of 18 I’ve never NOT dated or married a horsey man. It’s soooooooooo much easier to explain why you’re spending money on horses, because he has the same problem.

[Midge]

@enjoytheride

I think the issue is that it can appear that you are implying that horsewomen don’t care what kind of a slimeball a man is when he’s on a horse. It’s a direct insult to men that aren’t slimeballs, and implies that the only reason they got a woman is because they ride. I think that’s an unfair thing to say and understand how Rayers is insulted.

The general suggestion that there is no reason for a horseman to have relations with a young girl because older women are throwing themselves at him goes the same way. A predator will be a predator no matter what.

I think there is a pretty big gap between, ‘overlook a lot’ and ‘slimeball’. I think drawing that conclusion is way more of an insult to women than men. And I didn’t say women are ‘throwing themselves’ at men. I said men have a wider pool. The women’s pool is narrower.

[Denali6298]

@RugBug

Ugh. I don’t want to. (Partly because he rambles and isn’t always the most linear in his thoughts…but also because he can’t see past his nose on this.)

Even the initial question, he can’t help but think it was an older teen. He seems to be a good father, if he thought someone was messing with his daughter NOW, it would change his mind right quick on what he’s saying. At least I hope it would

And he alluded in another post, not the main one, that it wasn’t older teens per se but that RG had learned from his mistakes and it was the times.

That is the context with which I read the most recent post.

[fordtraktor]

@anotherera

And, since the age of 18 I’ve never NOT dated or married a horsey man. It’s soooooooooo much easier to explain why you’re spending money on horses, because he has the same problem.

My husband has a mom and sisters into designer makeup and clothing, manis, pedis, massage, spa etc. I dress myself from Tractor Supply and have never done any of the rest so he is under the delusion I am frugal.

Plus, he likes playing Farmer Fordtraktor and thinks I am a badass because I can drive a tractor and shoot varmints. I don’t have to explain a thing. Plus, I spend my money on horse stuff so what’s to question?