Rob Gage

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

So about the question about an instance of Safe Sport or an NGB handing down a lifetime ban to someone based on conduct involving one single victim, when both the accused person AND the victim both say there wasn’t a sexually consummated relationship, and the situation was not prosecuted in a court of law?

I support the ban. I totally think USEF and SafeSport did the right thing. And the report USEF put out following their decision to ban Mr. Cates (It’s only a few paragraphs) is a major factor. It states that they had recordings of the two speaking, thousands of sexualized text messages that went back and forth, and that the evidence did indicate he had groomed the girl for a lengthy period of time, and had sexual with her while she was a minor. USA Today in their article about said this went on recently - within the last decade. The ruling came down in 2015. The girl was allegedly 16 or 17 when the actual physical relationship was consummated, the texting and grooming began a few years before that. Mr. Cates was in his mid 40’s.

The prosecutor apparently did not prosecute because at the time, the girl refused to cooperate. I do not know what her story is now, but I would not be surprised if, in the future, her story changes and she comes forward and says that there was sex. I think most people reading anything to do with this case would have a similar take on it.

Mr. Case was also banned by the UPHA. Lifetime ban. They had an agreement with USEF for reciprocal measures. But they also had their own by laws. So their board did review everything related to his hearing in front of USEF, the fact that he had an attorney for the hearing, he said nothing in his own defense (at the USEF hearing), and they also had access to the same evidence USEF did. They ruled the same way… on the same facts… lifetime ban. And Mr. Cates appealed his bans to the Kentucky Court of Appeals (not sure how that worked legally) but they ruled on it in 2016 or 2017, and the decision was that the UPHA lifetime ban was enforceable, and there was not a violation of Mr. Cates due process rights or anything inherently unfair about the processes USEF and UPHA went through before deciding on the lifetime ban.

So what do other people think… should USEF have banned him? Does it make a difference to you that you know about the age of the victim, the evidence that there was a sexual relationship (texts, recordings, diary)? To me - it makes a big difference and I think it is fairly easy to say the ban is appropriate. She was a teenager, and he was in his mid 40’s. The fact that we are only talking about 1 victim, and the fact that both he and the victim deny having sex doesn’t matter to me in this case. Because when he was under oath at the USEF hearing with his attorney at his side… guess what? He said nothing. And the teenager was just a teenager, and this guy totally manipulated her. It seems clear.

I also think all the people trying to pick apart Safe Sport and make arguments against it should think about this particular case, and ask themselves what they think the right solution is for it? To do nothing? No Safe Sport? What about in the case of RG? If people had a summary report regarding the allegations and some of the evidence that was reviewed, would it possibly change their minds? RG also had a lawyer, and he had the opportunity to appeal the lifetime ban. He ended his life before his appeal hearing. And that is absolutely tragic. And I understand people are in shock and grieving.

[Midge]

If I was ever lobbying hard for something and a couple of pedophiles were cheering me on, I’d have to seriously stop and question just what I was doing. But Bonnie is apparently setting herself up as the go to for all the future fall out and doesn’t give a crap about the kids.

Well done, Bonnie. You must be so proud you can dupe people into thinking your SafeSport rant is full of facts.

[oneequestrienne]

@Midge

Uh, that was NOT Midge’s point. Midge’s point was there are plenty of single women to choose from. If you’re stooping into the junior ranks for your dating opportunities, there is a problem.

Exactly!

[oneequestrienne]

@bip

Agree. And one way you can tell someone is a predator is that there are eligible adult partners all around, yet they are grooming/pursuing children (because they don’t want a partnership or a relationship, they want an object to satisfy their every desire with none of that pesky self-determination an adult brings to the table).

Bingo!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Midge

If I was every lobbying hard for something and a couple of pedophiles were cheering me on, I’d have to seriously stop and question just what I was doing. But Bonnie is apparently setting herself up as the go to for all the future fall out and doesn’t give a crap about the kids.

Well done, Bonnie. You must be so proud you can dupe people into thinking your SafeSport rant is full of facts.

You asked earlier I think why I didn’t just respond on Facebook on her thread to the pedophile’s comment on her thread and tell him to F off … because you are correct… I can Well, it’s because I think it’s important to watch it play out. And see how many more people give Randy Cates a thumbs up, or some other similar reaction. And who the people are that are giving Randy the thumbs up.

I have copied the text of his comment on Bonnie’s thread… just to save others the aggravation of looking for it…

Bonnie,
My case as a previously adjudicated case (USEF’s only one but supposedly across the NGB’s there are 900) I don’t understand how it’s “legal” but SS is retroactively applying all these new rules to these old cases. The level of due process is across the board in these old cases, mine for example wasn’t given any independent examination and was not only not supported by the alleged victim but was refuted by the alleged victim. My point, if SS can do that then Katie bar the door. Everyone is at risk.

Go back and read for yourselves USEFs decision about this guy and the summary report, and, oh yeah… the Kentucky Court of Appeals decision that the UPHA and the USEF lifetime bans on him were enforceable. They actually stated his due process rights weren’t violated and he did have a lawyer representing him across the board. And the police DID investigate him and DID think he was guilty. So please… he says he hasn’t gotten an “independent examination” of his case yet? As for the defense that the “alleged victim” refuted the allegations against him. Well, The victim was a totally brainwashed and exploited teenager, who apparently thought she was having a consensual love affair with a man in his mid 40’s… so I find his whole comment pretty darn vomit worthy.

When I first brought up this comment a few pages ago it had 15 reactions. It now has 18 reactions. Some stunned and sad faces amongst them. I interpret that to mean people are stunned or sad about the injustice poor Randy has supposedly suffered at the hands of USEF and Safe Sport. But it’s possible they are actually stunned at his audacity.

[MHM]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I think that’s a terrible message. And it’s sad that he doesn’t quite seem to get that. And I really do wonder what is up with that, given that his wife is a victim. And the story that ran in the San Diego paper about what she went through was heartbreaking, and the man who treated her that way was evil . So the entire context makes my head spin, and wonder what is up, and hurt for his wife.

I have not caught up on all the sidetracks. Was the wife a victim of someone in the horse business?

[fordtraktor]

@Virginia Horse Mom

You asked earlier I think why I didn’t just respond on Facebook on her thread to the pedophile’s comment on her thread and tell him to F off … because you are correct… I can Well, it’s because I think it’s important to watch it play out. And see how many more people give Randy Cates a thumbs up, or some other similar reaction. And who the people are that are giving Randy the thumbs up.

I have copied the text of his comment on Bonnie’s thread… just to save others the aggravation of looking for it…

Bonnie,
My case as a previously adjudicated case (USEF’s only one but supposedly across the NGB’s there are 900) I don’t understand how it’s “legal” but SS is retroactively applying all these new rules to these old cases. The level of due process is across the board in these old cases, mine for example wasn’t given any independent examination and was not only not supported by the alleged victim but was refuted by the alleged victim. My point, if SS can do that then Katie bar the door. Everyone is at risk.

Go back and read for yourselves USEFs decision about this guy and the summary report, and, oh yeah… the Kentucky Court of Appeals decision that the UPHA and the USEF lifetime bans on him were enforceable. They actually stated his due process rights weren’t violated and he did have a lawyer representing him across the board. And the police DID investigate him and DID think he was guilty. So please… he says he hasn’t gotten an “independent examination” of his case yet? As for the defense that the “alleged victim” refuted the allegations against him. Well, The victim was a totally brainwashed and exploited teenager, who apparently thought she was having a consensual love affair with a man in his mid 40’s… so I find his whole comment pretty darn vomit worthy.

When I first brought up this comment a few pages ago it had 15 reactions. It now has 18 reactions. Some stunned and sad faces amongst them. I interpret that to mean people are stunned or sad about the injustice poor Randy has supposedly suffered at the hands of USEF and Safe Sport. But it’s possible they are actually stunned at his audacity.

I don’t know how to do any reaction on COTH but “like” a post but I would think people are stunned and saddened that this kind of blatant abuser posts his abusive **** online. Please don’t judge by “reactions” because I would be stunned at the audacity but you seem to think it would be because I support him? Please no. When I see something I consider stunning or sad on FB, I click that which may mean “I can’t believe someone said that!” Not that I am sad at the poster for the criticism of the ridiculous info linked.

I stated early that I was withholding judgment on RG and didn’t want to draw conclusions without more info, and that is true because at the time details were scarce. Heck, they still are but there is enough skepticism now I feel better about things. Not sure but better. I find the Randy Cates case a clear case and vomit worthy too. It is kind of a straw man, though. I was not at all familiar with this case. If someone gives him a thumbs up, or a “wow” (OMG he did that!) or sad (So sad he did that) – keep in mind that they may well know absolutely NOTHING about what he actually did. so easy to click “like” or “wow” or “sad” when someone agrees or disagrees with a sentiment without knowing anything about the story. A thoughtful person needs to be careful about the conclusions they draw from Facebook. You are very thoughtful so make sure you don’t read too much into “wow” or “sad” faces.

[bingbingbing]

@Virginia Horse Mom

By the way… just because I didn’t choose to label RG a pedophile, doesn’t mean I don’t suspect that this might have been the case. Bottom line though, people involved in this case have NOT chosen to step forward with their stories publicly in the same way that folks involved in the JW or Lipinski matters did. So it’s really hard as someone on the outside to support labeling RG a pedophile or a predator.

I pray they don’t come forward publicly. They will be beyond publicly lynched. People are accusing Anne Kursinski of killing RG. They are saying she deserved Eros dying.

I have so many thoughts on this. But the bottom line is that we need to protect our children as best we can. A predator is sick, ill, and they will not stop.

I really believe that there are so many people squirming waiting for that email. But still I also believe that there are many still engaging in this behavior. People joke about the trainer who goes out to the pool where all the juniors are in their bikinis, while the adults are inside…being adults, not predators.

It is unfortunate that innocent members need to change their normal, healthy behavior to follow the Safe Sport rules. But IMO it is worth it. Being sexually abused has a lifetime effect on so many aspects of a person’s life.

I was not physically abused, but was involved with very inappropriate behavior by a priest. I made a recording of him saying very inappropriate things to me and my friends. It was presented to the Pastor of the church and NOTHING was done. This was the 80’s. Eventually his predatory ways caught up with him. But not without many victims. The fact he got away with his behavior as long as he did is disgusting. He abused way more girls than reported, victims don’t come forward because of the lack of support and vitriol against them.

https://www.andersonadvocates.com/Pr…-R.-Logan.aspx

[Void]

@Jealoushe

Some people choose to look the other way because its more convenient. Its hard to find a good farrier she said. Some people do not care about the moral compass of others. So I can see how so many convicted child abusers can easily maintain a career.

So last year I had messaged RG asking about getting a riding lesson here or there, more clinic like stuff. I didn’t know he was on the SafeSport list because I honestly wasn’t paying attention to anything like that. I had ridden with him previously and enjoyed his instruction.

He replied back that he charged $500 a lesson.My eyes are about to fall out from rolling them so hard when I read people saying “his career was ruined!!”

[Texarkana]

@Void

So last year I had messaged RG asking about getting a riding lesson here or there, more clinic like stuff. I didn’t know he was on the SafeSport list because I honestly wasn’t paying attention to anything like that. I had ridden with him previously and enjoyed his instruction.

He replied back that he charged $500 a lesson.My eyes are about to fall out from rolling them so hard when I read people saying “his career was ruined!!”

:eek:

How common is that for CA?

Here in the horse-friendly mid-Atlantic where you can throw a rock and hit a BNT, I don’t know of anyone who charges that much for a lesson. Not Olympians, not anyone. Although competition for riders and COL keep the prices in check.

[Peggy]

@MHM

I have not caught up on all the sidetracks. Was the wife a victim of someone in the horse business?

Yes. John Lipari.

[PonyPenny]

@Void

So last year I had messaged RG asking about getting a riding lesson here or there, more clinic like stuff. I didn’t know he was on the SafeSport list because I honestly wasn’t paying attention to anything like that. I had ridden with him previously and enjoyed his instruction.

He replied back that he charged $500 a lesson.My eyes are about to fall out from rolling them so hard when I read people saying “his career was ruined!!”

Did you live near him? I knew others that inquired too. You would have to haul to his place. I believe he quoted my friend $100, which was what his clinic price was.

[Peggy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

There actually IS a good case that fits exactly what you are getting at.

Randall Cates. He has said in comments on Facebook he DIDN’T have sexual with the girl. And she backed his story up and refused to cooperate with the prosecutors. The parents apparently found LOTS AND LOTS of sexualized messages though, and it was obvious he was grooming her, and it had been going o for a few years beginning in her young teens. They also found diary entries the girl had made. The texts and diary made the parents believe the relationship was consummated and call the police. The police investigated, and according to public info agreed with the parents… but the girl refused to cooperate with the prosecutor. So they did not charge Case with the crime. However, the whole thing was brought to USEFs attention in 2015, when there were Safe Sport rules, but no Center yet, or independent investigators. USEF had a hearing and reviewed the evidence, and gave Cates a lifetime ban.

Here’s a link to USEFs statement concerning their decision. I guess they issued this report in his case as it was one of their first, but these reports are not issued anymore…

Is this what you were trying to link to? Waiting to see if my post ends up in jail, which I think happens sometimes with links. https://www.usef.org/content/documen…ublication.pdf

[MHM]

@Peggy

Yes. John Lipari.

Thanks.

[PonyPenny]

@Texarkana

:eek:

How common is that for CA?

Here in the horse-friendly mid-Atlantic where you can throw a rock and hit a BNT, I don’t know of anyone who charges that much for a lesson. Not Olympians, not anyone. Although competition for riders and COL keep the prices in check.

Not common at all. Others have paid significantly less. You would have to haul to his place. He did do clinics where he would come to your barn. He did have a minimum price, so that he would not be traveling for one person. Gas is expensive in California. I helped organize a couple clinics and he did have a minimum daily rate. Not unreasonable at all in my opinion.

[Midge]

@Virginia Horse Mom

You asked earlier I think why I didn’t just respond on Facebook on her thread to the pedophile’s comment on her thread and tell him to F off … because you are correct… I can Well, it’s because I think it’s important to watch it play out. And see how many more people give Randy Cates a thumbs up, or some other similar reaction. And who the people are that are giving Randy the thumbs up.

Frankly, I am surprised at some of the people who are supporting this. All along, we’ve heard rumors of who is going to go down and who testified against who. I think there is an attempt being made to cast a poor light on the process now so when someone’s friend or co worker gets accused, they’ve already established themselves as thinking the process is fatally flawed.

A couple years ago, I was talking with a friend about Larry and Kelly and she was highly critical of Bonnie and other things she had done. Now, however, it’s, thank goodness we have you to give us the truth. WTF?

I’ve spent the last couple days watching people I like double down against SafeSport without a single word about victims. I had a couple friends involved in various capacities and it’s clear that some of the people against SafeSport are just flat out lying. I’m disheartened by the lack of empathy for victims. Someone almost shouted in my face, ‘A man is dead!’ and all I could think about were the number of times teens have committed suicide and the response is sympathetic, but also judgemental. 'Well she was running with the wrong crowd, drinking and doing drugs." But don’t you remember when she said she was raped in the bathroom and no one believed her? And while some took her drinking and drugs and wild behavior to mean she was also a liar, I took it to mean she was telling the truth.

[Texarkana]

Thanks @PonyPenny, maybe that was his “minimum” to travel or something (like, “I’ll need to make at least that much to travel back there”)… or maybe he just really didn’t want to do it that day. :lol:

[AllOverFarm]

My reply is in regards to comments about how parents just drop the kids off at barns or send them to shows by themselves. It’s been my experience with many different barns that trainers have encouraged this & it becomes a norm.
I’ve heard many parents of kids telling trainers they couldn’t go to a certain show because of a prior work or family obligation, then the trainers say, send them with me, it’ll be fine. Then what happens, the kids enjoy hanging out with friends/trainers at show without parental supervision, trainers like not having parents breathing down their necks asking questions… so, the next show it’s encouraged again for parents to stay home.
Same goes for lessons. Trainers encourage parents to drop kids off a lot of the time. I heard trainers many times say, just leave Susie, we will find stuff for her to do, she can help out in the barn.
And, don’t get me wrong… it’s great for kids to be able to cut the cord & pitch in around the barn.
But, in my experience… parents don’t just sign kids up for lessons & take off. It’s encouraged by the trainers.

I go to all my kids lessons & shows. They grow up to fast to miss out on this part of there life. I realize not all parents have this luxury, but I do feel like a lot of trainers like having no parents around, & encourage parents to stay home.

[bingbingbing]

@Midge

Frankly, I am surprised at some of the people who are supporting this. All along, we’ve heard rumors of who is going to go down and who testified against who. I think there is an attempt being made to cast a poor light on the process now so when someone’s friend or co worker gets accused, they’ve already established themselves as thinking the process is fatally flawed.

A couple years ago, I was talking with a friend about Larry and Kelly and she was highly critical of Bonnie and other things she had done. Now, however, it’s, thank goodness we have you to give us the truth. WTF?

I’ve spent the last couple days watching people I like double down against SafeSport without a single word about victims. I had a couple friends involved in various capacities and it’s clear that some of the people against SafeSport are just flat out lying. I’m disheartened by the lack of empathy for victims. Someone almost shouted in my face, ‘A man is dead!’ and all I could think about were the number of times teens have committed suicide and the response is sympathetic, but also judgemental. 'Well she was running with the wrong crowd, drinking and doing drugs." But don’t you remember when she said she was raped in the bathroom and no one believed her? And while some took her drinking and drugs and wild behavior to mean she was also a liar, I took it to mean she was telling the truth.

I feel like BN is the one you want in your corner fighting for you if you are guilty. She is smart and tenacious. She knows the law and will go thru the rules and process and find the loop hole to get a person off. I can see why people want her on their side. She doesn’t seem to get people off based on their lack of guilt, but based on her ability to find the loop hole, the imperfection in the process or rules.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fordtraktor

I find the Randy Cates case a clear case and vomit worthy too. It is kind of a straw man, though. I was not at all familiar with this case. If someone gives him a thumbs up, or a “wow” (OMG he did that!) or sad (So sad he did that) – keep in mind that they may well know absolutely NOTHING about what he actually did. so easy to click “like” or “wow” or “sad” when someone agrees or disagrees with a sentiment without knowing anything about the story. A thoughtful person needs to be careful about the conclusions they draw from Facebook. You are very thoughtful so make sure you don’t read too much into “wow” or “sad” faces.

This is fair. I went back just now and looked - 12 people gave him thumbs up, 4 gave a sad face, and 2 gave a wow face.

As for the straw man argument - you have a point, however… if you were inclined to publicly give a thumbs up to someone’s comment on a public forum, and your profile had your first and last name associated with it, and literally thousands of horse people across the country were following that thread… wouldn’t you pause for one second if the person making this seemingly sensible comment actually ADMITTED in the comment that they were currently banned for life by USEF and on the Safe Sport list…

I’m pretty sure you would. You probably aren’t quite as obsessive as me (that’s a compliment - lol - or an acknowledgement of my own foibles) and not as immediately inclined to google his name and try and figure out why he was put on that list by USEF… but if you did google him, the USEF decisioni and summary is literally one of the VERY first things that come up.

So I think there are multiple people supportive of him who KNOW who he is and what he was banned for. One person in particular who I won’t name because I still feel empathy for her, well, she is definitely familiar with the Safe Sport list and lifetime bans. And I understand that no one wants to look at her and go “WTF?!?” for a few major reasons… but she has given a thumbs up to Randy Cates. I see it. I didn’t and don’t want to criticize her reaction to the recent tragedy of RGs death, but I am actually shocked she would give that comment a thumbs up. Randy Cates is an ASB trainer from Oklahoma… the “she has a lifelong personal connection to him and sees the situation from that perspective” excuse doesn’t apply.

And for everyone who said earlier they hope RGs victims don’t come forward publicly as they fear what will happen - I agree!!! 100%. But I wish I didn’t. I wish the community had evolved and become much more educated and empathetic and responsible with their comments. But it just hasn’t. Not by a long shot.