Rob Gage

[Midge]

@Denali6298

@Virginia Horse Mom I suspect that a lot of us posting here speak to our friends and think to ourselves things that we would not put out on this board or Facebook.

That is what truly shocks me the most. That people are publicly saying who cares it was so long ago. These same people then allude to knowing about it but “it was a different time.” They post that if it was their daughter they would help her understand and come to terms with HER mistakes. It’s appalling.

Was this on Vanessa’s page?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Midge

I’ve spent the last couple days watching people I like double down against SafeSport without a single word about victims. I had a couple friends involved in various capacities and it’s clear that some of the people against SafeSport are just flat out lying. I’m disheartened by the lack of empathy for victims. Someone almost shouted in my face, ‘A man is dead!’ and all I could think about were the number of times teens have committed suicide and the response is sympathetic, but also judgemental. 'Well she was running with the wrong crowd, drinking and doing drugs." But don’t you remember when she said she was raped in the bathroom and no one believed her? And while some took her drinking and drugs and wild behavior to mean she was also a liar, I took it to mean she was telling the truth.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It helps restore my faith in humanity. The person borderline shouting in your face is just nuts and sad. I’ve chosen to vent on the forums because I really don’t want to discuss this in person or on Facebook with people I also know who are also following it closely.

[roseymare]

FWIW this is NOT just a problem in the hunter portion of the horse world.

[Void]

@PonyPenny

Did you live near him? I knew others that inquired too. You would have to haul to his place. I believe he quoted my friend $100, which was what his clinic price was.

I dod live near by. He wouldn’t let me haul in so that was his price to go 20 mins down the road. As you can imagine haha I found the price to be too high considering there are lots of talented people to ride with in SoCal.

[Denali6298]

@Midge

Was this on Vanessa’s page?

It’s basically what people are saying all over Facebook.

[Denali6298]

@roseymare

FWIW this is NOT just a problem in the hunter portion of the horse world.

It’s not but they seem to be the only ones acting like the sky is falling.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@bingbingbing

I pray they don’t come forward publicly. They will be beyond publicly lynched. People are accusing Anne Kursinski of killing RG. They are saying she deserved Eros dying.

I have so many thoughts on this. But the bottom line is that we need to protect our children as best we can. A predator is sick, ill, and they will not stop.

I really believe that there are so many people squirming waiting for that email. But still I also believe that there are many still engaging in this behavior. People joke about the trainer who goes out to the pool where all the juniors are in their bikinis, while the adults are inside…being adults, not predators.

It is unfortunate that innocent members need to change their normal, healthy behavior to follow the Safe Sport rules. But IMO it is worth it. Being sexually abused has a lifetime effect on so many aspects of a person’s life.

I was not physically abused, but was involved with very inappropriate behavior by a priest. I made a recording of him saying very inappropriate things to me and my friends. It was presented to the Pastor of the church and NOTHING was done. This was the 80’s. Eventually his predatory ways caught up with him. But not without many victims. The fact he got away with his behavior as long as he did is disgusting. He abused way more girls than reported, victims don’t come forward because of the lack of support and vitriol against them.

https://www.andersonadvocates.com/Pr…-R.-Logan.aspx

Thanks for sharing your story. I grew up Catholic, have 2 kids who were baptized in a Catholic Church, and guess what? We don’t go to Catholic Church’s in this family anymore. Period. Because it is something they STILL have not come to terms with and are not totally honest about. The relatively recent case of the defrocked Cardinal and how they were protecting him throughout the 2000’s… until it was IMPOSSIBLE to avoid dealing with it? Yeah. I’m so done. I’m pretty much a pagan at this point.

I definitely didn’t intend to make it sound like I think the victims need to come forward publicly, or even should. I respect their choice 100%. I just wanted to be careful and acknowledge that I don’t know, what I don’t know. RG took his own life last week. And the family who loved him are hurting.

I agree though… people who engage in this behavior are lifelong risks. And I also agree that there are other people who were busy during that “different era” who are nervous right now. And frankly, I really have no sympathy, and don’t care who they are, and don’t care if they have stayed out of trouble for years and years. Anyone who had a sexual relationship with a minor when they were an adult… It was wrong then and they knew it. A 30 year old man KNOWS it is wrong to sleep with a 16 year old girl. Period. And if the only penalty a person like that faces is being banned from competitions decades later when they are old and grey, they got pretty lucky.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Peggy

Is this what you were trying to link to? Waiting to see if my post ends up in jail, which I think happens sometimes with links. https://www.usef.org/content/documen…ublication.pdf

Yes - thx!

[poltroon]

@IPEsq

I understand that the code allows for past acts to be brought up. But I think the public interest behind that is for the desire to prevent ongoing and future conduct, which is one of the major factors listed in considering the type of sanction. In contrast, the implementation in the JW case blows that up because he was long dead. So, I think it is a fair question to ask to what extent can past conduct (before the law) can be used, such as what kind of past conduct (would it have been illegal at the time or not), and for what purpose it is used–are we preventing the respondent from causing future harm (and what else might need to be shown?), or are we sending a message, or something else? If it’s for a purpose other than to prevent future harm, are any other legal concerns raised?

I don’t know the answer…just think it’s an interesting question. It does seem that the law is intended to be civil and not punitive (no one goes to prison), so it shouldn’t matter if its ex post facto. But clearly there are a lot of people crying about the punishment. The right to practice a profession may be denied to one who was convicted of an offense before the statute was enacted if the offense reasonably may be regarded as a continuing disqualification for the profession. And of course, Safe Sport only does this with respect to the part of practicing the job that is under the governance of the NGB. Still makes me wonder why someone already deceased got put on the list and so opens the door for questioning the specific implementation of the law.

This provides an interesting discussion.
https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/article-1/70-ex-post-facto-laws.html

I’ve wondered about that and wondered if anyone asked at USEF/SafeSport about it. After mulling it for a long time, I wondered if it was because of things like the withdrawal of the trophy and if there were other places where his name was ensconced in the organization, and this gave them a process for taking it out.

Alternately, I wonder if it was used as a test case for process.

I assume they’re not planning to make a habit of putting resources into investigating dead people.

I know many people venerated him and people I know and love personally are upset his name is on there. For myself, I think it creates clarity and I wish some of those people, before they spoke about it, really thought about what it means that they’re more concerned about the reputation and feelings of a dead man than they are of Anne Kursinski, who is also someone they respect and admire and treasure, or at least always did when I was close to them. She testified that he first penetrated her when she was 11 years old and she wasn’t able to leave that barn until she was 18. I remember at the time thinking it was surprising that she left Flintridge then to go east, and especially since it seemed like she’d severed her Flintridge ties, though of course we wished her well. Now it doesn’t seem surprising at all.

[IPEsq]

@poltroon I’m not saying he should get a pass. The JW story I think does show just how long lasting the problem is in our sport too. But I also think that the act of putting his name on the sanctions list could give some fuel to the fire to question the backwards reach of Safe Sport for people who are upset about RG or anyone else who might be exposed for past conduct, even where those other cases may well have an ongoing safety of athletes concern.

[roseymare]

@Denali6298

It’s not but they seem to be the only ones acting like the sky is falling.

Not really AHA and ASBA members were up in arms late last year.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2233409260016665&id=197296390294639

[Max123]

@IPEsq

@poltroon I’m not saying he should get a pass. The JW story I think does show just how long lasting the problem is in our sport too. But I also think that the act of putting his name on the sanctions list could give some fuel to the fire to question the backwards reach of Safe Sport for people who are upset about RG or anyone else who might be exposed for past conduct, even where those other cases may well have an ongoing safety of athletes concern.

Call me emotional but I don’t care if he is dead - he had sex with an 11 year old girl. He deserves to be on that list - dead or not. People should be made aware that if you are going to molest children, at some point it will catch up with you no matter how long it takes. I don’t think USEF or any other organization for that matter, would want to be associated with a man who penetrates a child and that’s what she was, a child.

Look at it this way if you are working for a company and you find out your CFO at one point had sex with an 11 year old girl but had never been convicted - do you think any company in it’s right might would keep that animal on their payroll? No, they would fire them.

Oh my god - he had sex with an 11 YEAR OLD GIRL. Why does this not horrify people?? Fuel to the fire?? I’m sorry but f*ck them.

[adhock]

@bingbingbing

I feel like BN is the one you want in your corner fighting for you if you are guilty. She is smart and tenacious. She knows the law and will go thru the rules and process and find the loop hole to get a person off. I can see why people want her on their side. She doesn’t seem to get people off based on their lack of guilt, but based on her ability to find the loop hole, the imperfection in the process or rules.

I’m finally weighing in because I think that this BN stuff is a lot of bull dung. BN appears to be an ambulance-chaser and my guess is that RG did not benefit from her incompetence. For whatever reasons (many of which I’m sure we don’t know), he was desperate and someone probably referred him to her because she was cheap/free. Legitimate counsel does not broadcast inarticulate crap on social media. Look at her background: Yuck! In horse show language, she wouldn’t even be at the county show trainer level. She is promoting herself inappropriately and trying to manipulate horse show professionals that, regardless of appearance, mostly live hand to mouth and think that pro bono = conscience. She’s just another horse-trader using seemingly invisible commissions to grab attention. I’m sure that SS and the USEF have figured her out and discount much of her noise and self-marketing. It’s gross and it’s sad.

[ladyj79]

Man I’m gonna disagree that putting Jimmy Williams on the banned list was too far; I wish they had also burned him in effigy and danced around the flames burning sage.

[Max123]

@ladyj79

Man I’m gonna disagree that putting Jimmy Williams on the banned list was too far; I wish they had also burned him in effigy and danced around the flames burning sage.

Totally agree - If you have sex with an 11 year old girl and molest as many as he did (and 1 is 1 too many) no punishment is too great. What he stole from those girls can never be returned. I don’t care that he was a great horseman - big deal? SO WHAT - jesus - when will these people stop thinking they are so freaking special just because they can win on a horse?? Sorry - you deserve to be cast from society once you molest children.

[mvp]

@roseymare

Not really AHA and ASBA members were up in arms late last year.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto…97296390294639

Just to be clear, those organizations are/have been unhappy with the USEF and have contemplated going their own way (as recently did the driving folks) because the USEF returns little bang for their buck. I feel this way as an individual member as well. I join for no other reason than saving a tad of money when entering multiple rated shows in a year.

Sure, I suppose my hide would be further chapped were my membership dollars used to mount a legal defense. But that’s not my largest concern and I’ll continue to be unhappy with the USEF, with or without its mismanagement of SafeSport’s requirements.

And BTW, isn’t it SafeSport’s problem if someone wants to litigate the “Hey, you deprived me of my Constitutional rights” question? Yes, someone being deprived of their membership in this hobby club puts the USEF somewhere in the mix. But it didn’t choose the punishment, nor did it get to choose to follow SafeSport policy, insofar as it’s an NGB for Olympic Sports. So the USEF isn’t really a perpetrator in terms of running up against anything Constitutionaly; rather, it’s just passing a buck forward, amirite?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I do understand the breed communities, and driving breaking away from USEF. But not because of Safe Sport… because of many other issues.

As for lawsuits that will inevitably come - that’s America, and that’s in just about every single aspect of our society.

However… on that lawsuit issue… if I was the parent of a teenager that was riding with a coach who was a big deal in one of the breed organizations, and my teenager was going around to those shows, and the breed organization had broken away from USEF a few years earlier for a variety of reasons, but doesn’t adhere to Safe Sport after they break away… in the event my teenager gets abused, guess who I am suing?

The breed organization. Because there is an obvious argument that if they had continued to follow Safe Sport policies, and had some process for banning predatory coaches… my child might not have been harmed.

If I was on the board of one of these organizations, and thinking as a rational person, and thinking through all this I would HOPEFULLY be considering these questions (liability, how to protect junior competitors, etc).

So in terms of passing the buck forward… with regard to liability in the event a junior gets molested by a trainer… Safe Sport policy helps ALL these organizations in terms of proving they were not negligent. If the Saddlebred community breaks away, and Randy Cates frequents shows on that circuit… and I am a parent that knows nothing about all the background and doesn’t do research, and my child goes and rides with him and gets abused - EVEN in the most minimal way one can think of - I am suing the organization that broke away from USEF, failed to have a Safe Sport policy, etc etc etc. ALL DAY LONG. Because it’s NEGLIGENT.

And even if the abuse/sex crime can’t meet the burden of proof required for prosecution in criminal court - which is OFTEN the case, there is Civil remedy.

Did the Catholic Church get to turn around and say, “Well, you all should have spoken up a long time ago, and this is a criminal matter, and it needs to go through the police before we are obligated to do anything. Oh, and Cardinal McCarrick is a HIGHLY respected man of the cloth who is all the way over in the Vatican, so just leave it alone.”

They tried that. And they have paid out many millions - possibly into billions in settlements, and McCarrick was defrocked when he was in his mid 80’s.

@ladyj79 Side note… I think burning in effigy and dancing around with sage is a fantastic, downright poetic idea when applied to abusive priests.

[anotherera]

@Max123

Totally agree - If you have sex with an 11 year old girl and molest as many as he did (and 1 is 1 too many) no punishment is too great. What he stole from those girls can never be returned. I don’t care that he was a great horseman - big deal? SO WHAT - jesus - when will these people stop thinking they are so freaking special just because they can win on a horse?? Sorry - you deserve to be cast from society once you molest children.

Yes, one would think that child molesters would be “cast from society” with gusto, but that doesn’t seem to be the case in our government either. This morning, my FB feed was covered with threads about Roy Moore, a known PEDOPHILE, running for the Senate seat in Alabama again. Then we have the POTUS, who signed Safe Sport into law. With his lewd comments about women alone, he would be banned forever by Safe Sport, not counting the sexual misconduct allegations from 23 women, one of whom was 13 at the time and was part of Epstein Island. Google that if you want to view perversion! We have both state and federal legislators trying to play doctor with women’s health, making them second class citizens in the process. There’s always the legislators that think the women’s right to vote should be rescinded, and the most egregious to date, was Texas considering putting women to death if they got an abortion. Fortunately, that never made it out of committee. I guess they saw the error of their ways on killing off the wives, daughters, granddaughters of their voters. If you’re not political, or it doesn’t interest you, it’s way past time to GET INVOLVED. Pecking away at Safe Sport is not where the problem starts. It starts at the top, and that’s where the focus should be.

[Denali6298]

@anotherera we don’t need to get this thread shut down with politics.

@roseymare yes those organizations were up in arms. As others have said it goes beyond safe sport. They left for other reasons. I get being up in arms. I do not get acting like the entire industry will crumble because one can’t molest kids and drug horses.

[Max123]

@Denali6298

@anotherera we don’t need to get this thread shut down with politics.

@roseymare yes those organizations were up in arms. As others have said it goes beyond safe sport. They left for other reasons. I get being up in arms. I do not get acting like the entire industry will crumble because one can’t molest kids and drug horses.

Thank you