A) I am healed. B) I belive everyone wants fair play but getting off on a technicality doesn’t mean they didn’t do it. Supporting people who exploit loopholes are just as bad. It’s not against the rules so it’s cool. C) I see the world as it is. I don’t sugar coat it. Do the right thing even when no one is watching.
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Based on some of the people urging for a separation of USHJA, I think there would be a significant portion urging for a relaxing of more rules than just safe sport.
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Their first post on this thread. It’s cool because everyone was doing it, I did it, it was acceptable back then, so who cares? Sorry I can’t take you seriously and defecting wouldn’t mean better drug testing. It would mean no drug testing or allowing certain drugs.
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I have posted before I am surprised a splinter group hasn’t already broken off. It’s happened in the breed world when an unhappy faction leaves the mother ship. SS isn’t the only thing, there’s the belief you can’t show without chemical help but both these disgruntled segments seem to have the same lawyer.
Just as an aside, my late longtime trainer instigated a policy of no under 16 kids in the barn without an adult (not staff). Publicly stated it was for insurance reasons and they had one accident where the kid was dropped off, got hurt and the ER couldn’t reach an adult to authorize anything. Privately she admitted she just didn’t feel comfortable, wasn’t a baby sitter and it’s her barn …now I wonder if this wasn’t part of it. Always lurked in the shadows. Biggish barn, often young male assistants, hmmmmmm…thought it was a good idea then for the reasons she gave, even more so today. Most of the parents hated it but complied by taking turns staying while the others ran errands.
Maybe that’s not a bad idea for any barn. Both as a deterrent and a defense.
ETA she picked 16 instead of 18 because the 16 year olds drove themselves. Not perfect but…
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@atl_hunter - I have been all over this thread for several days and I only periodically post on COTH. I do not participate in rated hunter shows, so I am not going to wade into the issues of drug testing, etc etc, as I am sure there are concerns on both sides.
I think the comments directed at Denali are a bit much.
When people continue to accuse accuse others of being TOTALLY black and white while discussing the issue, and then go the extra step to the whole, “Well, you’re a victim, so I understand that you are angry, and I hope you find peace and happiness in your life” place…
Stop.
I’m very black and white when it comes to issues of child abuse and sexual abuse, because I am a victim. As a child. And again as a young adult. And I have family and friends who I love who are also victims. And I do jump into these threads intensely, for that reason. I want to see the equestrian community cleaned up… and move towards a different culture. Because I love my horses, and want my child to have many many years enjoying the same sport I have.
But about the whole labeling someone “angry” and telling them they should be less inflammatory, accusatory and judgmental thing. Be careful with that. In my own life, I have been described EXACTLY that way by some people… frankly… One of the people who describes me this way is the same person who abused me as a child… and he knows it. So do I. And two other family members who support him in calling me “angry”, etc, … they are aware of what I accused him of many years ago. And they have made a choice to minimize it and sweep it under the rug.
When these people have spoken up and bad mouthed me to our wider circle of friends and family over the years, they do not tell anyone about the abuse accusations. Nope. They just talk about how I have these mysterious “anger issues.” It’s incredibly frustrating to be on the receiving end of this. So I know firsthand what it feels like to be trashed that way, when you are a victim, by a wider group of people who are being manipulated by your abuser and his apologists. It is extremely unpleasant. So when I see people on Facebook making nasty comments about AK being a b*tch, or how the whole RG thing came about because an anonymous victim from years ago had a “score to settle” etc etc… and they are pretty sure about who she was and what really happened back then, and it was no big deal… and how lots of girls just like her back then we’re not only consensual, but actually asking to be sexually exploited by older male coaches… and they should just be quiet already… I find it upsetting. Because this stuff is complicated and insidious, and a lot of clueless people who are part of a wider circle do dip a toe into the whole zone of “victim blaming/shaming” without even REALIZING it. Because predators, and the people who KNOWINGLY cover up for predators? They are manipulative, and pretty darn good at marginalizing and ostracizing any victim who they think might become a noisy problem. They did it then, and they continue to do it. Decades after the fact.
There is a lot of it going on right now in the wake of the RG situation in Hunter jumper land. And it makes me sad. I am not saying that this is what you are doing… but be mindful and tread lightly. Abusers are manipulative, and people who cover up for abusers don’t like to admit that is what they are doing.
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Many seem to be missing the part of this where the older man is in a position of power.
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They are not. “It was the times, is the logic.”
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BUT IT WASN’T. I showed horse is the 80’s. Trainers dating their students were still considered creeps. Sure maybe not as many reported them then compared to now and that is a change for the good.
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I agree. The only difference I see is that now days the young (potential) victims are more likely to know it’s wrong and have better outlets to report it/get help…unfortunately we are still behind on supporting victims and putting blame where it belongs.
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As many people have stated in the thread, it has ALWAYS been illegal to have sexual relations with a minor. Just because it was not widely prosecuted does not mean it wasn’t against the law, and who says it wasn’t frowned upon? It certainly would not have been allowed in my family, yours may have thought it was fine, but mine would not.
In addition, do you have knowledge of "some of these older cases? What makes you think they are not similar to JW? Did you read the report? Do you know the details? If not, I don’t think you can say it is a witch hunt. Trainers were molesting 13, 14 and 15 years olds. It was not just a bunch of 17 year olds hitting on their trainer. There were young girls that their trainer repeatedly sexually abused. And it wasn’t just tolerated because you would get to ride the nice horses or winning ribbons, it repeatedly occurred because the other adults at the time looked the other way.
If you knew the details in some of these other cases would you change your opinion?
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Think the reference is to the 50s, 60s and 70s. It WAS different. Nobody dared report it and there was really nobody to report it to. Not and hope for support and compassion. We were just pretty young girls who had to expect they would attract the admiration of a man. That’s what I was told when I was cornered and groped at age 20 or so. And date rated by a non horsey BF at 21. It was part of the rites of passage back then. Judging by the victim shaming going on here, we haven’t come very far.
Trainers/coaches have openly dated and sometimes married their much younger but over 18 students since time began. Not really what the discussion is about. We aren’t talking about consensual activity between adults, even barely adults.
We are dragging something out from behind the barn and the shadows it has always lurked in. Seeking the eager to do anything to ride young teens and even tweens who love their Ponies and are in awe of the powerful figure who controls their access.
Do feel sorry for RG that he reached the point where he made that choice. As well as his family and friends but those who have chosen to end it usually have multiple challenges facing them. Are they wondering if they, perhaps, missed some other signs he was this troubled over the recent years? Others have survived bans and continued to teach. Have a co worker who lost her 38 year old brother to suicide recently, family was totally unaware of most of his issues until they went through his things. Quite a bit of guilt over not realizing brother was on that track. Perhaps that’s behind some of the defensiveness and anger on their part here.
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You know you are wrong about everything in this paragraph right? Clearly, you haven’t done your research.
Here’s the other thing. There was an original complainant who was underage and having sex with RG some 38 years ago (If we are to believe what his friends post on facebook) The investigation turned up other minors with whom he had sex. Do you know when that occurred? No. No one does (except for the minors in question). Do you know the details of the investigation that lead to him being banned for life? No. No one does.
So this constant refrain of ‘back then’ is meaningless, since no one knows when these girls were assaulted. He found out about another accuser and committed suicide. The prevailing wisdom of his friends is he just couldn’t take the badgering and the pressure. It couldn’t possibly be that it was a more recent episode, or an even younger child. No one knows.
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AQHA has not been a part of USEF and runs their own ship, completely… and that is why when Paul Valliere got set down from USEF, he moved his business to the Quarter Horse circuit.
It’s easy for USEF to be the punching bag for whatever is perceived to be wrong with showing or shows or the affiliate association, but USEF does a lot of boring, important stuff that costs money - like having a legal team, like the drug testing, like having a hearing structure - that the small associations cannot hope to replicate. They do also cost money. USEF needs to be accountable to us as a whole but we’re all better able to do those things together than separately.
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FWIW I am glad to see his name there and glad about the message that it sends.
I’ve been struck by how many people say “it’s not fair” because “he can’t defend himself against the allegations.” I have no idea what defense they think he could or would possibly offer or why they think that would, in any way, have gone well. For anyone.
And also, I think if a teenager had come out against him then, she wouldn’t have ended up on any Olympic teams. I think the same would likely be true had any of Rob’s accusers come out pre-SafeSport. IMHO.
That’s what is meant to change here.
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Which is why the breeds under USEF tend to stay even after bellyaching.
And interestingly enough for many years most of the large breed organization directors have had get togethers. I am sure somehow Kevin Bacon fits in as well. LOL
AQHA, ApHC and APHA are not immune to the same issues. I have no doubt some members would react to Safe Sport in the same fashion as we are seeing on FB now from the hunter community.
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I’m sorry, but I need to do one more update. Randy C himself has officially weighed in (yup - again) on BNs most recent post about the pro bono work she has done, victims she has represented, and the fact that she empathizes with accusers…
here is what he has to say this time…
“I am one of the banned on the safe sport website. Bonnie Navin is not my attorney and other than by reputation and a few small exchanges on Facebook I do not know her.
What I do know is she is part of a group of 6 to 10 Attorneys and advocates, some which have been paid and others who are doing this pro bono who are desperately fighting to get some fairness, clarity and regulation of the safe sport process. They’ve watched people die and seen peoples lives ruined. It is not the popular fight, it is the good fight. To those sideline sitters, nobody thinks they’re coming for you until they come for you. Be happy she and the others are out there.”
He does make a convincing argument. Until you remember. Thousands of sexualized text messages, from a man in his mid 40s to a girl who was 14, I believe, when it started. And his student. There was also a recording, and diary entries. All indicating he had sex with her. And the Kentucky Court of Appeals reviewed the lifetime ban USEF and the UPHA both gave him, and found that it was enforceable and his due process rights hadn’t been violated. So he sued and lost, then appealed, and still lost. And at his USEF hearing, he had an attorney with him. But he did not speak and say he was innocent.
Sooooo… just take note of this. 15 people have already liked Randy’s most recent insight. Including Jim Giorgio. Who plead guilty to something involving a 14 year old girl, but wants to fight his lifetime ban too. I’m still not allowed to link stuff… maybe someone else can remind folks of the specifics of what Jim Giorgio plead guilty too.
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Jim Giorgio
https://www.blockislandtimes.com/article/connecticut-man-indicted-sexual-assault-minor/20222
https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-2007-03-21-0703210504-story.html
Googling him also pulls up a recent fire.
https://fox61.com/2019/04/12/smoke-detectors-credited-with-saving-lives-in-east-windsor-fire/
At least Randy Cates writes using complete, coherent sentences.
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No breeds have left the USEF but they have left their own mother ship and set up new registries. Huge split in the Arabs many years ago comes to mind. And I am surprised it hasn’t happened yet. Thought it might when USHJA became the official HJ arm of USE (F), there was another competing group pushing for that and some bad feelings. Think the legalities of setting something up and the infrastructure needing to be created might be the only reason it hasn’t happened.
And for offenders, it’s not just SS they have to fear. There are people like AK who went public before SS was ever heard of without any back up which led others to start speaking out. So getting rid of SS isn’t going to protect them.
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The Arabians controversy of of recent years (2003) was actually not a split but a combining of the AHRA (“The Registry”) and the IAHA. The Registry was just that a registry for purebreds only. IAHA ran the shows and maintained the half and Anglo registrations. This is still festering because there is licensing and money and a third organization (PAT) involved.
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