You’re all a damn broken record, and you committed Rob Gage as soon you could. How about having a tad bit of decorum and just shutting up?
And I know, it’s my first post on this subject, but I’ve followed it all. You have tons to say, but admit you’ve never met him. His death is a huge loss, and you don’t know what you’re railing against, so why not just shut up?
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I am not sure we are reading the same thread.
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I was referring to a big stink over pedigree records and eligibility of horses imported from Middle Eastern countries formerly part of “Arabia” and Egypt to be considered and compete as Arabians that caused a split in…ahhhh…maybe 70s? It got ugly. You could import an Arabian from Poland or Spain and it was considered an Arab but not a horse from Arabia due to unrecognized records in Arabic. I got their point but…really…
I never met Charles Manson or Timothy McVeigh, but I am still very supportive of their convictions and sanctions.
From numerous sources, they process is valid and has been upheld in numerous sporting disciplines and with numerous persons. I am going to tend to say that the sanction was appropriate. It is RG’s choice to end the situation as he did, sad as it may be. He had the choice, nobody else made him.
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But AK’s decision and experience are so specific. She’s an Olympian, and the coach she accused was a giant in the sport.
Reading that article last year from her, and the others who shared their experiences was life changing for me. I admire the way they have supported each other. I admire that AK went through what she did, and yet never gave up her horses. It’s remarkable to me actually. And I admire what she did to start the conversation in this sport… it needed to start.
But for the average person, who was not an Olympian, or is still a child, for the person who experienced many broken years after the abuse and turned to drugs or alcohol or had a turbulent dysfunctional life for some time, for the average person who was molested as a child and then spent a few years as a young woman engaging in promiscuous behavior (because that is actually a VERY common response)…
Do you honestly think that everyone will believe those people if they come out 5, 10, or 15 years after the fact? And allege abuse against a coach who is not a giant in the sport… who might just be some average guy down the street running a barn with an IEA program? Or taking a small team of juniors around to a few shows? But he’s no Jimmy Williams…
I think there will be a lot of people who say that the girl is “screwed up” and the guy is just “a poor, hardworking, really nice guy, trying to make a buck running a lesson program,” a guy who is going to “lose his livelihood and everything he’s spent years working his ass off for” because some “poor little rich girl, whose parents paid for her to have riding lessons and then spent all day boozing at the country club” has popped her head up 10 or 15 years after the fact, or more, and now she’s just a mess of a middle aged woman with emotional/mental problems, and oh yeah… she slept around A LOT right after high school and partied hard…
etc, etc.
So I think she is going to have to be able to PROVE her abuse, to a criminal standard, before anyone will believe or support her. And even then, she knows she will be called a nut or a slut, by more than one person, and having to withstand a character assault will be part of the price she will have to pay if she chooses to speak up.
These crimes are REALLY REALLY hard to prove. And there are never perfect victims. And that’s a huge reason so many are simply not prosecuted in a criminal court. Period. It’s not just about victims not speaking up or our country having been sexist in prior times… it’s a sad fact that crimes like these are VERY HARD to prosecute successfully, and the process is VERY HARD on a victim. Sad, but true.
So I think without Safe Sport is absolutely necessary. Without it, a lot of women won’t come forward, and without it, a child will only have her own parents to report to. And I am here to tell you, that’s often a problem too.
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I’ve met him multiple times, have friends who rode with him, and know people who went to high school with him.
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“I never met Charles Manson or Timothy McVeigh, but I am still very supportive of their convictions and sanctions”.
And there you have it … Rob Gage is on par with Charles Manson and Timothy McVeigh … you people are seriously messed up.
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Charles Manson and Timothy McVeigh we’re convicted of murder in a court of law. You know, the legal system that is put forth in the US Constitution. They both got due process. They were not sanctioned. Interesting you used those two as your example. You better do more research on SafeSport instead of relying on your numerous sources.
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I am railing against people in positions of authority having sex with minors. I am 100% clear on that.
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This is why we can’t have nice things. :rolleyes:
Roser, I’m very sorry for the loss of your friend. I also don’t think you have read very many of the 1,000+ posts on this thread, the majority of which have zero to do with Rob Gage specifically, despite being under a topic in his name.
I’m sure we could convince the OP to retitle this to something more relevant to the direction the conversation has taken. Then you may start a spinoff celebrating his memory, which I fully encourage you to do.
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I believe safe sport followed through with its dictate as the investigating body for Olympic sports. It is not required to follow US law. It follows the international and club laws.
My point is that I don’t have to meet or know somebody to have an opinion as to what they may or may not be guilty of doing. In this case RG was sanctioned for what I consider abhorrent behavior towards minors.
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[QUOTE=atl_hunter;n10416652]
[I]I truly do think it has more to do with the constant rising costs to compete in the sport. Then a drug case comes along (like the Glefke case) where it is made abundantly clear that the testing lab has major issues and that, quite frankly, the results cannot be trusted. So we have spent all this money for drug tests that are proven to be invalid, AND we are paying for USEF attorneys to attempt to defend something that is indefensible. Who knows what payouts had to be made to Glefke after that mess. It highly frustrating to fund this trainwreck with our membership dollars. THAT is why the timing of defecting coincides with drug testing.
A few posts up someone mentioned how a friend did a 180 on BN. Well, so did I. At first I thought “She is really good at finding the loophole.” But then I realized it is more than that. She has found major issues, not small loopholes, and has exposed them. This isn’t a bad thing and I’m glad the situation allowed for some light to be shed on the process. I, for one, do not enjoy my membership dollars to go toward required elements, like drug testing, that are later found to be invalid. I think it’s unfair to keep accusing those who are tired of the same old/same old of being pro drugs and pro predator as @Denali6298 continues to do (not in those exact words and those are not quotes from her directly). But she has her own feelings and she is entitled to her opinion. The thing about opinions is that they are like a-holes and everyone has one.[/I]
So, I just have to clarify here. The lab testing in the LG case was accurate. There is extensive documentation that the machines doing the testing were calibrated properly and functioning accurately and that the tests were run correctly and confirmed. A perivascular injection and a sampling blood draw from the same injection site (as per veterinarian testimony in the hearings) explained the two samples having slightly different levels of GABA. This is a phenomenon that has been documented in other drug testing cases. There is NO question that both of the samples tested positive. Per the records in the lab, at one point one of the test tubes was moved from one laboratory refrigerator to the other (within the same secure laboratory area) without documentation. That is the ONLY error that was involved with the drug testing. There was NO evidence that either of the samples were tampered with, and no evidence that anyone had any opportunity to do so. I would urge you to read the testimony from the hearings yourself–LG got off on a technicality, and from everything I can see, BN manufactured a major issue out of a minor technicality via a massive media storm and legal battle. If you disagree, I’d love to hear what evidence there was of any other problem.
For someone like me, I prefer my membership dollars to go toward proper drug testing.
Realistically, leaving the USEF would make drug testing more difficult. Access to a proper drug testing procedure is a big reason many groups that fall under USEF stay with USEF. It would be very expensive and probably impossible to create a duplicate drug testing framework.
I prefer my membership dollars to go toward fair rules of play that are clear to all. I prefer my membership dollars to support ALL levels of the support and not just the top tier or Olympic level rider.
You make a valid point about our membership dollars being spent to support the top tier of the sport and no one else. I completely and wholeheartedly agree. But in all fairness, I think that Safe Sport policies are mostly about protecting people at the grassroots level of the sport. Safe Sport primarily protects all the little people–the kids, the young riders trying to work their way up, the adult amateurs, etc. Safe Sport is very “athlete centric” and doesn’t take into account how important, famous or well-connected a trainer is.
I have concerns over the rising COSTS of the sport, and how all these debacles end up driving up the cost of the sport.
Yes, totally agree. But I blame the guilty people who are filing lawsuits and trying to tear down our organizations every time they are penalized for something. I certainly don’t blame the organization for trying to enforce rules and clean things up. Totally agree that it is an uphill battle and that it ends up costing all of us little people in the end.
There have been SEVERAL names put on the USEF temporary suspension list that have been removed. What is the cost of these? Were these people denied the ability to compete over a false allegation? Where are the metrics for that - what percent are found to be false? What is the cost of all these investigations? We are paying for it - we deserve some transparency. When we say transparency, we don’t mean “victims names” as so many suggest. We mean you can strip that out but tell us what happened, what was the charge? Help us understand what the person did that was so egregious that they were smacked with a lifetime ban. Help us understand what the cost is when we get a lawsuit for putting someone’s name on a list suspending them and it is later found they are innocent (maybe they have video or other evidence). They had a loss of business for that period - are we reimbursing them? If not, are they filing suit? And at what cost to us, the member?
I don’t know any other workplace, business, or organization that reimburses employees for lost income while child molestation charges (or allegations of inappropriate workplace conduct) are being investigated. In the case of a SS suspension, a trainer can continue to conduct much of their business. People in many different workplaces are subject to suspensions for inappropriate behavior. Also, while investigations do cost money, I think the moral and economical costs of ignoring sex abuse allegations are higher. As an aside, remember that USEF and Safe sport are two separate organizations. Safe Sport (government funded) does the investigation and determines the suspension, what information will be released, etc. and per federal mandate USEF has no choice in the matter.
THAT is why the timing of the request to defect coincides with SafeSport.
Maybe I’m missing something, but let’s say your equestrian organization did leave USEF and Safe Sport. What would happen then? What alternative would your equestrian organization use to deal with sexual predators? I’m asking, because I would be curious to know what an actual, real life alternative might be. Is there another organization available to handle complaints of sexual abuse and misconduct? Or would the alternative simply be looking the other way until law enforcement does or doesn’t catch up. (FWIW, because the jumpers are an olympic sport, whatever their governing body is has to participate with Safe Sport per federal mandate.)
I would like to ask something of you. Please, before you post further, go do your Safe Sport training. Read about why it functions as it does, what the process is, and what the credentials are of the people in the organization. I think you can tell from my posts that I support SS, but I started out as a person who had not thought through ANY of this stuff. I didn’t know what “grooming” meant, and I also initially found the mystery surrounding certain suspensions to be off-putting. I wondered as much as anyone, “huh, I wonder what they did?” or “could that really be true?” But, at the end of the day, all SS can do is ban a person from a sports club. If they published the results of their investigations (which is some cases would be quite shocking and disturbing) the financial damages for the accused would be almost certainly be MUCH worse and that would likely result in more aggressive lawsuits. As it is, because the SS process does not release details, an accused person can put out any story they want on social media defending themselves. “It happened 30 years ago” or “the girl was 17 years 11 months and it was consensual” or “there’s no proof.” An accused party can say anything they want about the situation knowing SS won’t publicize the facts.
If USHJA leaving USEF would allow them to use a better testing lab and be more honest with our drug testing and results, I am all for it. If defecting would allow us to make rules that are more clearly written so they are enforceable, then I am all for it. If defecting means we could wait to post a name until both sides have had a fair chance to present evidence, then I am all for it.
Re: the drug testing, it would most definitely not. A smaller organization would also likely have much less power to enforce rules, especially where well connected, highly lawyered up trainers were involved. Of course, waiting to suspend a child molester until a lengthy investigation is complete would allow potentially ongoing abuse to continue.
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Interestingly, Manson and McVeigh still have their rabidly supportive groupies to this day, so using them as comparison is not so far off the mark.
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That’s so disgusting. Both of those men were found guilty in a court of law, and it wasn’t me who used them in comparison … it was one of your idiot friends.
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And OJ Simpson was found NOT guilty in a court of law. And he’s still an awful human being. So what’s your point exactly?
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I’m not an attorney, but I think you’d lose your case. That’s because the breed organization would have a very easy time proving that it’s cutting ties with the USEF was not done in order to bail on Safe Sport requirements. And, in addition, you, as a parent, had the option of withdrawing your kid from those shows/that organization if you knew it was not SafeSport compliant and that was important to you.
Oh, okay, you could retitle this thread, and then I could start another one and speak my truth there because, something titled “Rob Gage” isn’t the place for it.
i feel sad. I have looked to this forum so often for answers, especially with my horses health, and to witness this fever against a man I thought so highly of is really tough.
Well, let me walk you through it s l o w l y. OJ Simpson and Rob Gage have nothing in common (except perhaps in your sorted little mind). In fact, OJ Simpson’s accusers/charges were put out there for all the world to see … Rob’s weren’t, and he was never an ‘awful human being’.
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Wow. Is there something you know that the rest of us don’t? The man was banned for abhorrent behaviors towards MINOR CHILDREN and you want to pout and call people “idiots” on here. I think many here would like answers. Like, why is it OK to victim shame and to ignore something someone did just because they are/were “an amazing trainer” I’m sorry your friend turned out to have a dark not-so-secret secret, but getting mad at people for thinking his behavior was disgusting is ridiculous IMO.
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