Rob Gage

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Roser123

This will come as a shock to you, Virginia Horse Mom, but your options aren’t the only ones that exist … how about this

3. You are aware that about 38 years ago, RG had a 17 year old girlfriend. But that’s all you know … you don’t know anything about anyone else, and certainly not about any 12 year old. You are not now, nor have you ever been a fan of teenage girls dating adult men, but that’s beside the point. You also believe that trying a dead man on social media and as anonymous posters on a bulletin board is not right. Further, you believe that as a consequence of his own decisions, RG may have thrown his name in the mud, but you don’t take kindly to people who didn’t know him from Adam dragging it through.
   The End

Sigh…

I’m going to say it again. Louder for the folks in the back that didn’t hear me the first time:

[I]"The age of the child is irrelevant. 7, 12, 17…It’s abhorrent. For the folks out there on FB arguing that “17 is close enough” well, no. It’s not. And if you’re really that close to age of majority, and you guys are really “in love.” Just wait till said minor turns 18 in a few weeks. Otherwise. Yup. Abhorrent.

And in the case being discussed, RG, that’s children. Plural. That means more than one victim has come forward. More than one person was impacted badly enough to carry the scars for so long that they were willing to risk the wrath of the entire community to blow the whistle.

That must’ve been some pretty abhorrent behavior on the part of RG."[/I]

As for "You also believe that trying a dead man on social media and as anonymous posters on a bulletin board is not right." I will opine that the victims in this case are being tried, hung, drawn and quartered on social media by the folks in denial. RG at least had due process. And yes. He did.

We do not need to know him to examine and discuss the facts that ARE known about the case. And we sure as heck don’t need to know him to be shocked and dismayed by the behavior of the folks crying foul.

The thing is, I could wish that in a kinder, gentler community, his suffering and the suffering of his victims had brought a sea change in attitudes toward the seedy underbelly of the horse world that comes in the form of coaches and trainers using and abusing minors in their power–the very people they should be protecting, nurturing and mentoring–in order to feed their ego, get their rocks off or whatever the bleep else it does for them to engage in Sexual Misconduct Involving a Minor (also known as being a sexual predator, something commonly deemed abhorrent by civilized society).

Instead we are seeing the wagons circle and far too many people pointing their fingers at ANYTHING they can think of to deflect, deny and rationalize the behavior.

I think some of them (not saying this is you) are not motivated by any sense of justice for RG whatsoever. They’re up in arms because they know they might be the next one to get that email from SS and USEF. They are terrified.

As for that lawyer squawking about how unfair SS is? Don’t be fooled, folks. She’s whipping up hysteria and building her profile for when that next email hits someone’s inbox. She’s drumming up business. No more.

I do get it, @Roser123 . I’ve lost more than one person I loved to suicide in my lifetime. It hurts like H3LL. I know. But I also know, very, very well, that it was not one single, solitary thing that caused the level of desperation required to end it all. First, significant underlying mental health issues are rather a prerequisite. Then also typically a snowballing series of challenges that culminate in that feeling of desperation. The combination seems so insurmountable, the blackness so total. Those of us left behind struggle with guilt, abandonment, denial, even shame. And that’s OK.

But his suicide doesn’t change what he did. And it sure doesn’t exonerate him. And it certainly does not, under any circumstances, excuse the way some people are behaving as they attack the victims. I think that is what most people here on COTH are most concerned with. I know it’s what is hitting me in the gut.

[Roser123]

“I’m going to say it again. Louder for the folks in the back that didn’t hear me the first time …”

That was a good line … the first time.
As for the rest of it, I just want to say for the record that in my wildest dreams, I would never shame the victims - nor would I use their apparent shaming an an excuse to go after RG on a bulletin board.
I could write a long responsive screed, but I’m of the “brevity is a virtue” crowd.

I appreciate your kind words regarding suicide … I wish he knew how much some of his smallest gestures meant. To many of you on COTH, I get that the SS charges define RG, but to a lot of us, this is a really heartbreaking time.

[BigMama1]

@Roser123

This will come as a shock to you, Virginia Horse Mom, but your options aren’t the only ones that exist … how about this

3. You are aware that about 38 years ago, RG had a 17 year old girlfriend. But that’s all you know … you don’t know anything about anyone else, and certainly not about any 12 year old. You are not now, nor have you ever been a fan of teenage girls dating adult men, but that’s beside the point. You also believe that trying a dead man on social media and as anonymous posters on a bulletin board is not right. Further, you believe that as a consequence of his own decisions, RG may have thrown his name in the mud, but you don’t take kindly to people who didn’t know him from Adam dragging it through.
   The End

Here’s the thing. What you know or don’t know isn’t relevant. What SafeSport knows, thanks to victim complaints and the ensuing investigations, is that:
1: Rob’s conduct was serious enough for them to believe he posed a risk that warranted temporary suspension during the investigation.
2: That there were MULTIPLE victims found to be credible. This is NOT the case of just one relationship with a 17 year old, no matter how much you want to paint it that way.
3: That the results of their investigations led SafeSport to conclude that whatever he had done was deserving of the harshest penalty they could impose
4: That at least one more victim came forward after this case was concluded.

I’m not sure what your agenda is in posting here but honestly it’s just making RG and the people who try to defend his behaviour look even worse.

[TMares]

I was molested by the farm owner when I was 11 and he was in his late 40s. He hugged me intimately, fondled my left breast and tried to French kiss me. This happened twice, maybe 3 times?. The second event was similar to the first. I was petrified. I had the courage to write my mom a note and stash it in her purse. That night the horse stayed in our suburban back yard while they figured out wtf to do with her, with me, all of it. The authorities said if I had no physical complaints then I was fine. And of course I wasn’t. I had no idea how I had caused what happened to me. I was afraid of all men. Then my 7th grade science teacher hit on me. I ran away. By HS I was a full on fake whore, making it plain I wasn’t afraid of sex or boys, you couldn’t scare me. Those “minor” events ****ed me up, big time. By college I really was pretty promiscuous. Thank everything I got through it all squeaky clean, minus two date rapes. You know, just 2. Could have been worse. I’m sure I asked for it, right?

so you can stand on your mountain and wave the flag printed with his actual charges, those charges you are so certain weren’t all that abhorrent. I mean, who’s to say, really?

[oneequestrienne]

@Roser123

“I’m going to say it again. Louder for the folks in the back that didn’t hear me the first time …”

That was a good line … the first time.
As for the rest of it, I just want to say for the record that in my wildest dreams, I would never shame the victims - nor would I use their apparent shaming an an excuse to go after RG on a bulletin board.
I could write a long responsive screed, but I’m of the “brevity is a virtue” crowd.

I appreciate your kind words regarding suicide … I wish he knew how much some of his smallest gestures meant. To many of you on COTH, I get that the SS charges define RG, but to a lot of us, this is a really heartbreaking time.

As I have said previously on this very long thread, I feel empathy for those who lost their friend. If what you see here is upsetting you, you don’t have to follow this thread. If you want to be surrounded by those who loved RG, there are plenty of them all over social media. Likewise, you could start your own thread here to share fond memories of the man you knew. I knew a different side of him. I wish you and those you love peace.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@DarkBayUnicorn

As for "You also believe that trying a dead man on social media and as anonymous posters on a bulletin board is not right." I will opine that the victims in this case are being tried, hung, drawn and quartered on social media by the folks in denial. RG at least had due process. And yes. He did.

We do not need to know him to examine and discuss the facts that ARE known about the case. And we sure as heck don’t need to know him to be shocked and dismayed by the behavior of the folks crying foul.

The thing is, I could wish that in a kinder, gentler community, his suffering and the suffering of his victims had brought a sea change in attitudes toward the seedy underbelly of the horse world that comes in the form of coaches and trainers using and abusing minors in their power–the very people they should be protecting, nurturing and mentoring–in order to feed their ego, get their rocks off or whatever the bleep else it does for them to engage in Sexual Misconduct Involving a Minor (also known as being a sexual predator, something commonly deemed abhorrent by civilized society).

Instead we are seeing the wagons circle and far too many people pointing their fingers at ANYTHING they can think of to deflect, deny and rationalize the behavior.

I think some of them (not saying this is you) are not motivated by any sense of justice for RG whatsoever. They’re up in arms because they know they might be the next one to get that email from SS and USEF. They are terrified.

.

This. Exactly this.

The people on Facebook who are grieving RG, many of whom are longtime friends, are participating in multiple public discussions. Some of the discussions have involved people saying “What was done to Jimmy was wrong” … meaning the victims coming forward, speaking up, the NYT article being published, and his name being removed from a major award, as well as placing his name on the list. Most of the discussions have involved people saying “speak up when something happens to you, not 25 years after the fact.” Other discussions have involved people saying, “Young women need to take responsibility for their own actions.” A few people have gone even further and said, “Girls back then chased the top trainers.”

And one particular person said, “This was not about RG being a threat to anyone, this was about settling old scores.”

As someone on the sideline who is seeing this, and who also noticed a few different comments out there noting that there were multiple victims, at least one as young as 12, I am speaking up on this thread. Because the other discussions and comments on Facebook by all the people who are grieving, and lawyers who are doing what some lawyers do, and the other pedophiles who are on the Safe Sport banned list, but sure were quick to jump right on into these discussions and make comments because they think this is a great crowd to blend into… well… it must be AWFUL for the real victims out there watching it all.

Safe Sport permanently banned RG because they believed there were real victims. Safe Sport wrote a 400 page report about it. I frankly don’t need to personally know anyone, to know that there are anonymous people sitting on the sidelines watching all the noise on Facebook, who are being victimized for the 2nd time.

I absolutely understand grieving deeply over losing someone to suicide. Suicide is an awful, deeply complicated thing in many many respects… McGurk spoke to that issue very very well.

But grief is not an excuse for victimizing anyone a second time. And that is what is happening. And I am speaking up on this thread because I don’t think that everything on Facebook is only about grieving a friend or concern over Safe Sport and constitutional rights… I think much of it is about evil, and people who know there was/is evil in the equestrian community… and they want to defend being a person who knows that and says and does NOTHING about it.

[Roser123]

@BigMama1

Here’s the thing. What you know or don’t know isn’t relevant. What SafeSport knows, thanks to victim complaints and the ensuing investigations, is that:
1: Rob’s conduct was serious enough for them to believe he posed a risk that warranted temporary suspension during the investigation.
2: That there were MULTIPLE victims found to be credible. This is NOT the case of just one relationship with a 17 year old, no matter how much you want to paint it that way.
3: That the results of their investigations led SafeSport to conclude that whatever he had done was deserving of the harshest penalty they could impose
4: That at least one more victim came forward after this case was concluded.

I’m not sure what your agenda is in posting here but honestly it’s just making RG and the people who try to defend his behaviour look even worse.

Excuse me, “Big Mama”, but I was responding to someone giving me 2 options of how to feel; that seems to have flown over your head.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Roser123

There’s a difference between “Sexual Misconduct - Involving Minor” And “abhorrent behaviors towards MINOR CHILDREN”. One he was charged with, and one he wasn’t. It’s as easy to change “minor” to “children” as it is “children” to “little kids”, it’s like a game of telephone.
I haven’t claimed that he wasn’t guilty … not even going there … what I DO claim is that changing the words of, or misrepresenting the charges is wrong.

I don’t see any misrepresentation.

Minor:

noun
1.
a person under the age of full legal responsibility.
synonyms: child, infant, youth; adolescent, teenager, boy, girl, lad, lass, schoolboy, schoolgirl; informal kid, kiddie

In law, a minor is a person under a certain age, usually the age of majority, which legally demarcates childhood from adulthood.

Sec. 101.003. CHILD OR MINOR; ADULT. (a) “Child” or “minor” means a person under 18 years of age who is not and has not been married or who has not had the disabilities of minority removed for general purposes.

I could go on, but I won’t. I think it’s safe to say that in general, the term “minor” can be used synonymously with the term “child.”

You seem to be claiming that we’re trying to make RG’s actions seem worse by using “child” instead of “minor.” I’d say that in fact, it’s the reverse: you’re trying to make RG’s actions sound better by insisting that “minor” does not mean “child.”

As far as the legitimacy of using of “abhorrent behaviors,” others have already covered that, so I won’t bother.

[BigMama1]

@Roser123

Excuse me, “Big Mama”, but I was responding to someone giving me 2 options of how to feel; that seems to have flown over your head.

And I’m responding to your many ridiculous, aggressive, insulting and nonsensical posts. Suicide is brutal and it tears you apart. And I get you are also grieving the memory of the person you thought RG was, but now clearly have to realize was not. He had inappropriate sexual contact with MINORS. Plural. People who were hurt by his actions and are still suffering so much years later that they were willing to face public shame, ridicule and invasive investigations.

I don’t get the point of your posts, telling people to shut up, suggesting that a relationship with a 17 year old is no big deal, and criticizing those for dragging the abusers name through the mud. What are you trying to accomplish here? Getting people to stop discussing Rob? You’ve only added fuel to that fire. Clearing his name? That’s not gonna happen. Stopping people from debating the good and bad of Safe Sport? That’s an important discussion which needs to happen.

I think you should try to find a more constructive way to deal with the loss of your friend. This isn’t helping him and it can’t be helping you. The days, weeks, months and years after a suicide are rough indeed. Be kind to yourself.

[OverandOnward]

@Denali6298

So if the figures that someone put forth, Safe Sport thought they would have 35 cases a year and they really have 800, it no wonder the funding is falling short. I think the real test will be, does it get the federal funding it needs?

A very interesting stat.

Because when something egregious has not been responded to adequately for a very long time, a genuine new interest in addressing it can create a reaction on the level of a dam bursting with pent-up problems. Problems that didn’t exactly wash away over time. Yes, some are going to be old ones, because rather than going away, they festered.

The fact that there aren’t already several hundred suspensions from this level of reporting indicates that SS really is following a process. If they acted solely on a report without real investigation, there would be sanctions being handed out right and left - but that is not what is happening.

It would make sense that SS is indeed doing some sort of triage, trying to identify where the immediate need for protection is greatest. That is speculation on my part, though.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Roser123

“I’m going to say it again. Louder for the folks in the back that didn’t hear me the first time …”

That was a good line … the first time.
As for the rest of it, I just want to say for the record that in my wildest dreams, I would never shame the victims - nor would I use their apparent shaming an an excuse to go after RG on a bulletin board.
I could write a long responsive screed, but I’m of the “brevity is a virtue” crowd.

I appreciate your kind words regarding suicide … I wish he knew how much some of his smallest gestures meant. To many of you on COTH, I get that the SS charges define RG, but to a lot of us, this is a really heartbreaking time.

I hope he did know how much he meant to a lot of people. Sadly, sometimes that is just not sustaining enough when the darkness falls.

Please uderstand, that for my part, I am not “going after RG” beyond the known facts. I am greatly concerned about the wide and viscious reaction, the deflection, the victim shaming vitirol, the open acceptance (if not outright support) of known and convicted child molesters in FB comments.

Like it or not, this situation is now bigger than RG and his life and his actions both good and bad.

And that means it warrants discussion. It is by no means a comfortable discussion. For anyone. But it has to happen.

[findeight]

Why would the federal govt fund a sports monitoring group with no actual authority beyond the sport. Even if criminal conduct is proven, that would be turned over to regular law enforcement in the appropriate jurisdiction, who would be govt funded by whaterever jurisdiction the operate in,

[Pennywell_Bay]

As stated, it is difficult to separate people (especially ones you love) from actions.

I had had a boyfriend when I was in college. He hit me and ruptured my eardrum. Fast forward 30 years later- this is the only time I have spoken if it since.

He’s now a nurse, has a family, he’s beloved by his colleagues and our high school and college friends. People who knew about it, disapproved. He’s all but revered by these people. Some have zero idea what happened, probably wouldn’t believe it. Old friends know about it, but hey- I had cheated on him so I deserved it- right?

I’m fierce in real life. Even my SO of 11 years doesn’t know the story. HE probably wouldn’t believe it- I’m such a strong advocate for victims, fierce in my protection of victims, stand up for myself and “underdogs… Things I couldn’t /didn’t do back then for myself.

I even struggle with emotions of this person. Separating the him I know he was and can be and is from him hauling back and punching me on the side of my head hard enough to rupture my ear drum.

I am sorry for RG’s victims. I am sorry RG killed himself. I am sorry for his friends, as egregious as his behavior- I know first hand that doesn’t fully define a person. It’s painful for all.

[HLMom]

@Pennywell Bay

As stated, it is difficult to separate people (especially ones you love) from actions.

I had had a boyfriend when I was in college. He hit me and ruptured my eardrum. Fast forward 30 years later- this is the only time I have spoken if it since.

He’s now a nurse, has a family, he’s beloved by his colleagues and our high school and college friends. People who knew about it, disapproved. He’s all but revered by these people. Some have zero idea what happened, probably wouldn’t believe it.

Pennywell, thank you for sharing this.

In my mind, this raises a philosophical question. Before I pose the question, I should say I don’t know Rob Gage, have no knowledge of what he may have done, and have no opinion of Safesport’s actions in his case. I am against sexual conduct of any kind with minors. That shouldn’t really need to be said, but I hope to avoid being deemed a closet pedophile merely for raising what I consider interesting and thought-provoking issues.

With all that said, Pennywell’s post eloquently raises the possibility whether people can grow and change, in effect becoming different people, over the decades. Many of us have seen men who were sexist jerks in their 20’s become respectful and even feminist when they have daughters of their own. Indeed, my own hubby, while never a jerk, was pretty conservative when I met him and (two daughters later) is one of the biggest champions of women in STEM you’ll ever meet!

Should this kind of moral/personal development matter when it comes to punishing someone for conduct that occurred 20 or 30 years ago? Does Safesport recognize any concepts of reform or redemption? Can someone make reparations or restitution instead of simply being banned?

I guess my questions are twofold: (1) should a person’s moral growth and good character matter in assessing a penalty for long-ago conduct; and (2) does Safesport have a mechanism to take this into account?

[ladyj79]

Most psychotherapists agree that offenders who prefer minors don’t change.

But because it doesn’t really matter in my estimate, let’s say, sure.

But can we agree that we can acknowledge the potential for redemption but also disallow certain individuals to be around minors at shows governed by our ngb. Remember, that’s literally all these bans can do.

[poltroon]

@Virginia Horse Mom

The people I know who do NOT drink, when hanging out with a drinking crowd, are almost always

1. An alcoholic who is in recovery
2. Someone with a health reason, such as pregnancy, being on certain medication, or some other health condition.

Or…

3. They do not like feeling out of control.

I don’t drink because I spend all my money on horses.

I did the math when I was of that age, declared myself the designated driver, and plonked $12 in my horse account every time I went out with friends. Paid off nicely!

[poltroon]

@HLMom

Should this kind of moral/personal development matter when it comes to punishing someone for conduct that occurred 20 or 30 years ago? Does Safesport recognize any concepts of reform or redemption? Can someone make reparations or restitution instead of simply being banned?

I am not an authority and merely speculating, but from what I’ve read of SafeSport guidelines, the assessment of whether the person is an ongoing danger is separate from and not directly dictated by the specific offense they’re investigating. Of course, they may have decided specifically that sexual contact with a minor is always a permanent ban; I don’t know that.

An athlete in another sport was banned for 10 years, not life, for raping a fellow athlete while she was asleep and unable to consent.

I also don’t know to what extent they’ve considered more intricate carve-outs, especially in a sport like ours where it’s common/possible for a person to be all of a coach, an athlete, and a licensed official. For example, I might imagine allowing a person to continue competing but maybe ask them to surrender a stewarding license, in certain circumstances.

[Pennywell_Bay]

I am in no way absolving Anyone’s past behavior or actions. On the contrary, I believe that as joining a private organization- one can And should be held to a code of conduct.

It is well studied that predatory behavior rarely changes, and a frequently repeat offenders if the opportunity presents itself. Power disproportion in our sport is almost always there.

I posted more as a cathartic response to those who struggle with the man they know, and his behavior that resulted in RG’s tragic suicide. I am friends in real life with many of his defenders. It is tearing me apart and I’ve all but gone dark on social media.

I don’t have any answers and am sad for so many people. (And angry at those targeting the victims).

[JanM]

This is in response to the question about child predators, or sexual abusers changing. I’m not commenting on a specific person on this or any other thread.

Years ago I lived in New Mexico, and it was at the height of the predator priests stories coming out, the lawsuits, the settlements. There is a center (or was) in New Mexico called the Paraclete Center (spelling?), that is only for Catholic priests, with all types of addiction, and behavior issues.

The head of the center was interviewed on a radio program discussing if child predators can ever be treated. The psychiatrist who treat people at this center for years said that the pedophiles he treated were the only group that never changed. He said that the only pedators who never assaulted again were the ones that had no access to children.

[NoSuchPerson]

@HLMom

I guess my questions are twofold: (1) should a person’s moral growth and good character matter in assessing a penalty for long-ago conduct; and (2) does Safesport have a mechanism to take this into account?

Question 2 first. I think SafeSport does, because an assessment of the current and future risk to minors is part of the process of deciding on the interim suspension.

Now Question 1. Perhaps. However, I don’t see ordering a person who has previously engaged in “Sexual Misconduct - Involving Minor” to stay away from USEF activities, where lots of the same kind of minor he engaged in sexual misconduct with are hanging around, as being that egregious of an action, even if you are taking a person’s “moral growth” into account. Nothing says the person can’t go on and live a virtuous and successful life in the horse industry - people in this thread have cited several who have done exactly that, despite not being able to participate in USEF-sanctioned events.