Rob Gage

[HLMom]

@JanM

Years ago I lived in New Mexico, and it was at the height of the predator priests stories coming out, the lawsuits, the settlements. There is a center (or was) in New Mexico called the Paraclete Center (spelling?), that is only for Catholic priests, with all types of addiction, and behavior issues.

The head of the center was interviewed on a radio program discussing if child predators can ever be treated. The psychiatrist who treat people at this center for years said that the pedophiles he treated were the only group that never changed. He said that the only pedators who never assaulted again were the ones that had no access to children.

That’s a fair point. I guess I was thinking more of the situation where a trainer uses his power and influence to begin a “relationship” with a 17 year-old student–a situation which seems to have been described with regard to quite a few trainers people are talking about.

I assume you are right–someone who has sexual attraction to a younger child has psychological problems that will always be there.

I guess I also was lumping in what we think of as sexual harassment in regular workplaces. Like if the boss pressures a secretary for sex, even if they are both adults, he would be subject to discipline and possibly civilly liable for sexual harassment. Would that be a Safesport issue, say if a more senior trainer was harassing an assistant trainer (even if she was an adult)?

[HLMom]

I just answered my own question. It appears that much of the conduct addressed by Safesport could be conduct between adults. It is not just dealing with pedophile type behaviors. From the website:

The Center handles ALL reports of sexual abuse within the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Movements. Make a report to the Center if you have a reasonable suspicion of sexual misconduct such as child sex abuse, non-consensual sexual conduct, sexual harassment or intimate relationships involving an imbalance of power.

[CindyCRNA]

@JanM

This is in response to the question about child predators, or sexual abusers changing. I’m not commenting on a specific person on this or any other thread.

Years ago I lived in New Mexico, and it was at the height of the predator priests stories coming out, the lawsuits, the settlements. There is a center (or was) in New Mexico called the Paraclete Center (spelling?), that is only for Catholic priests, with all types of addiction, and behavior issues.

The head of the center was interviewed on a radio program discussing if child predators can ever be treated. The psychiatrist who treat people at this center for years said that the pedophiles he treated were the only group that never changed. He said that the only pedators who never assaulted again were the ones that had no access to children.

Not making any reference to RG and I don’t know the confirmed ages of the others but the first person to speak up says they were 17 at the time. Someone upstream posted a guide of sorts. What defines a pedophile vs some guy whose an idiot. Wasn’t the age of pedophile defined as less than 12? Then there was maybe 13-17ish, I can’t remember but it was interesting. Possibly a true pedophile can’t be rehabbed but someone choosing a 17 year old…maybe?

Ok, Wikipedia says sexual attraction to pre-pubescent is the definition of pedophile…

[bip]

@Roser123

I’m not the morality police, and in my mind, both are wrong, but they’re not on par; and definitely not 30-40 years afterward in the case of the latter.

I agree that they aren’t on par, but both are beyond the pale of what can be allowed in our sport.

[OverandOnward]

@JanM

This is in response to the question about child predators, or sexual abusers changing. I’m not commenting on a specific person on this or any other thread.

Years ago I lived in New Mexico, and it was at the height of the predator priests stories coming out, the lawsuits, the settlements. There is a center (or was) in New Mexico called the Paraclete Center (spelling?), that is only for Catholic priests, with all types of addiction, and behavior issues.

The head of the center was interviewed on a radio program discussing if child predators can ever be treated. The psychiatrist who treat people at this center for years said that the pedophiles he treated were the only group that never changed. He said that the only pedators who never assaulted again were the ones that had no access to children.

One of the thing that strikes me about these statements from professional counselors and psychiatrists is that pedophiles seem to be one of the offender groups that has the most to lose if they are busted. They not only stand to lose everything in their lives (job, family, friends), but must also have little expectation of forgiveness that would allow them to rebuild, and we are told that prison can be a nightmare for them. And yet it does seem there are so many stories of predators who go from one offense to the next, in spite of the risk they are running to their own life, not to mention their victims.

Locally there was a male second grade teacher who was dismissed under the cloud of ‘inappropriate contact with children’ . He had been at the school for less than a year. As it turned out, he had come from a similar situation in another town (how he came to be hired here is another can of worms). In the current case of dismissal, the school felt that they didn’t have enough to prosecute. So the disgraced teacher moved on to the next town, next school.

The thing is, this disgraced teacher could almost certainly have made more money and had a better career in another line of work. In another line of work he probably wouldn’t have had these repeated job/career interruptions, or the lurid gossip, not to mention the risk of arrest and prison. And yet instead he just kept going back to the next school system that could be talked into taking him on and regaining access to children.

That doesn’t have anything to do with Rob Gage that I know of. It just brings up the comparison of the behavior being discussed to the old parable of The Scorpion & The Frog. In the end, when the frog asks “It makes no sense - why???” the scorpion replies “Because it is my nature.”.

[chisamba]

I read every page of this and found it mostly reasonable and enlightening. I wanted to share my opinion that reading all if the victim shaming the excusing of the behavior and the failure to recognize sexual harassment and more than once instance of abuse of a minor has made me realize that every irksome aspect of Safe Sport is necessary. I was a little irritated at the ninety minutes it took to do the training. I was a little worried about the process. I though the idea of not being able to drive a student to a show without a signed release a real cover your arse move by the USEF. Now I sadly realize every bit of it is needed.

Quite possibly people like RG saw their mentors being sexually active with the “girls” at the barn and grew up thinking it was just fine. Hopefully SS will educate everyone to realize it is not.

I hope we do better. I will not be irked by measures designed to protect minors.

[oneequestrienne]

@Roser123

Uggg, that’s terrible and it brings to mind a story I remember from when I was younger - and who knows - maybe this colors my thoughts about RG, and others in his position.
My friend (we were probably 13-14 at the time), rode at a different barn than me. Without getting into the details, she was somewhat of a scholarship student. She rode/showed a horse for an older man, and her expenses were covered by him. That would have been the only way she could ride. Her benefactor was friends with the barn owner. Said Barn owner also owned a equestrian clothing line at the time, and he would summon my friend into his office to try on “samples” from time to time. I don’t know how many times this particular scenario came up, and I don’t know if the ‘benefactor’ was aware of it, but the barn owner would tell her there was no time/need for her to go to the bathroom to change, just to do it in his office and also to remove her underpants because the lines were too distracting. He then had her come over to him so he could “check the fit”. This included putting his hands down her breeches to check the crotch area.
This was a tough girl. She was absolutely no push over, but she was frozen and silent. She knew that any fuss or objection would probably end her riding career. Like some of you, I’ve never repeated this story to anyone before, but to me, there’s a big difference between a 50+ year old groping and fondling a paralyzed 13 year old who he had absolute power over, and a young man having a 17 year old girlfriend (who he also admittedly may have had influence over). I’m not the morality police, and in my mind, both are wrong, but they’re not on par; and definitely not 30-40 years afterward in the case of the latter.

It wasn’t just one 17 year old girlfriend or even a succession of 17 year olds, which by the way, is still a problem. I’m sorry you lost your friend. Four victims came forward after the Grand Prix at The Oaks. One of the victims was 13 at the time. There were others younger than 17. That narrative is done.

[MHM]

@poltroon

An athlete in another sport was banned for 10 years, not life, for raping a fellow athlete while she was asleep and unable to consent.

Ugh. So many posts on this thread have me shaking my head so hard I need to see a chiropractor. But this? A 10 year ban instead of a lifetime ban? How about ten years in jail?? That might be more proportionate to the crime.

Thank you again to all who have shared their experiences to add to the discussion. It is definitely a difficult subject, but it’s important shine a light on something that has continued in the shadows for so long.

[mvp]

@HLMom

Pennywell, thank you for sharing this.

In my mind, this raises a philosophical question. Before I pose the question, I should say I don’t know Rob Gage, have no knowledge of what he may have done, and have no opinion of Safesport’s actions in his case. I am against sexual conduct of any kind with minors. That shouldn’t really need to be said, but I hope to avoid being deemed a closet pedophile merely for raising what I consider interesting and thought-provoking issues.

With all that said, Pennywell’s post eloquently raises the possibility whether people can grow and change, in effect becoming different people, over the decades. Many of us have seen men who were sexist jerks in their 20’s become respectful and even feminist when they have daughters of their own. Indeed, my own hubby, while never a jerk, was pretty conservative when I met him and (two daughters later) is one of the biggest champions of women in STEM you’ll ever meet!

Should this kind of moral/personal development matter when it comes to punishing someone for conduct that occurred 20 or 30 years ago? Does Safesport recognize any concepts of reform or redemption? Can someone make reparations or restitution instead of simply being banned?

I guess my questions are twofold: (1) should a person’s moral growth and good character matter in assessing a penalty for long-ago conduct; and (2) does Safesport have a mechanism to take this into account?

How old was Gage when these crimes of “20 or 30 years ago” were committed? Was there a long and sustained pattern?

Look, if the guy molested kids while he was a grown adult, I don’t think the “people can grow and change” argument applies.

I also think that any college-age kid knows that rape is illegal, with no sort of mitigating factors (e.g. being drunk, the victim being drunk, living away from home for the first time).

Do any of you all know anyone who didn’t know that rape was illegal when they were ridiculously young?

Not for nuthin’, but it seems to me that girls are more deeply educated and educated much younger than boys about about avoiding sexual crimes. That’s whack: 50% of the population knows how to avoid the possibility of a crime that the other 50% claims it doesn’t know about?

[AllOverFarm]

The whispers in this sport are still real. About 6 yrs ago at a circuit in Florida my then 10 yr old daughter was asked to hop on a pony for a very well known trainer. Later that night I mentioned it to a trainer friend of mine & his response was “ that trainer is known to like younger girls, be careful.”
This winter my daughter, now 17, was asked to ride a horse for the same trainer that had her ride the pony yrs ago. Once again, we were warned about this trainers “attraction to young girls”. The warning this time was from our now current trainer. My daughter told me her trainer even warned her again a second time when I wasn’t around.
Obviously, people know something, but no one has ever reported this bnt. This person goes to all the top shows & has a huge amount of horses. I won’t let my daughter ride with him again.

[oneequestrienne]

@mvp

How old was Gage when these crimes of “20 or 30 years ago” were committed? Was there a long and sustained pattern?

Look, if the guy molested kids while he was a grown adult, I don’t think the “people can grow and change” argument applies.

I also think that any college-age kid knows that rape is illegal, with no sort of mitigating factors (e.g. being drunk, the victim being drunk, living away from home for the first time).

Do any of you all know anyone who didn’t know that rape was illegal when they were ridiculously young?

Not for nuthin’, but it seems to me that girls are more deeply educated and educated much younger than boys about about avoiding sexual crimes. That’s whack: 50% of the population knows how to avoid the possibility of a crime that the other 50% claims it doesn’t know about?

Rog Gage was 66 when he died. Thirty years ago he would have been 36. Forty years ago, 26. Even a 17 year old 40 years ago would have been 8-9 years younger. Again, the narrative that the whole story is that he had one 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18 is false. A succession of 17 year olds is still illegal and shows a pattern. Four victims came forward yesterday one of whom was a victim at 13… There are others younger than 17.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@oneequestrienne

Rog Gage was 66 when he died. Thirty years ago he would have been 36. Forty years ago, 26. Even a 17 year old 40 years ago would have been 8-9 years younger. Again, the narrative that the whole story is that he had one 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18 is false. A succession of 17 year olds is still illegal and shows a pattern. Four victims came forward yesterday one of whom was a victim at 13… There are others.

A 26 - 36 year old having any sort of sexual contact with a 13 year old is a serious issue. Having sexual contact with multiple 13 year olds is a pattern of behavior.

I sincerely hope that RGs friends who claim he was reformed are correct. However, Safe Sport did the right thing. No one with this history should be coaching juniors.

[fair_judy]

@findeight

Why would the federal govt fund a sports monitoring group with no actual authority beyond the sport. Even if criminal conduct is proven, that would be turned over to regular law enforcement in the appropriate jurisdiction, who would be govt funded by whaterever jurisdiction the operate in,

This so atypical of your normally informed comments? Safe Sport is Mandated. I’m genuinely flummoxed.

[BLBGP]

@oneequestrienne

Rog Gage was 66 when he died. Thirty years ago he would have been 36. Forty years ago, 26. Even a 17 year old 40 years ago would have been 8-9 years younger. Again, the narrative that the whole story is that he had one 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18 is false. A succession of 17 year olds is still illegal and shows a pattern. Four victims came forward yesterday one of whom was a victim at 13… There are others younger than 17.

How did they come forward? What happened yesterday? No one seems to be talking about it, at least on Facebook.

[Sparrowette]

First and foremost, I need to put some great, big qualifiers in here for those who say they knew RG and defend him. I don’t know you, and have no clue as to the extent of your contact/relationship with RG. If anything rings a bell in your head/heart, then you need to deal with it yourself, either with a professional or internally, or with your family etc. Don’t air it here.

But there are some aspects of things posted that are making me think thoughts that make me uncomfortable, and I need to point out something.

For those of you who knew RG and defend him, ask yourself how well you knew him, what were the circumstances of your relationship, and how old were you at the time?

There is an aspect of pedophilia that involves what is called “grooming”. This came out with all the information about the priests. The “grooming” that the priests did was (and is) essentially a seduction of the child, and in my book, a 17 year-old is still a child. Those laws are on the books for a reason. Here is some information about pedophile grooming:

https://www.openmindsfoundation.org/mission/

https://www.lancasterschools.org/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?moduleinstanceid=15371&dataid=27680&FileName=Sexual%20Abuse%20Grooming%20.pdf

https://www.openmindsfoundation.org/faces_of_undue_influence/what-is-manipulation/pedophile-grooming/pedophile-grooming/

Please look at the above information, and if anything applies to you, please get some sort of help. If the predator never actually abused you, then count your blessings. It may be that the Safe Sport process saved you while you were being groomed, before you were abused. Many here are advising you to trust the findings of the Safe Sport investigators; I’m asking you to do that too.

Ok, so Rob Gage committed suicide. It’s possible that, due to Safe Sport, he finally saw himself for what he really was, and didn’t like what he saw.

[NoSuchPerson]

@fair judy

Safe Sport is Mandated.

Yes. And in the initial bills creating SafeSport that were proposed, both in the House and the Senate modification, significant funding (in the millions, I believe) was included to fund SafeSport. In subsequent budget wrangling in the House, the funding was stripped from the bill, creating yet another unfunded mandate.

SafeSport did then receive a ($2 million+?) grant from the Department of Justice, but the money can’t be used for investigation & enforcement activities, just education.

Following Congressional prodding, the USOC did pledge to give SafeSport $6+ million this year, but USOC is working hard to get the Federal government to fund SafeSport (they did, after all, create it). I’ve seen a couple of media reports saying that USOC is pushing Congress to use the model of the US Doping Agency to support SafeSport. The US Doping Agency was similarly created, I believe, as an independent non-profit and it receives considerable funding from the government.

So, there is clear precedent for the government to provide funding for SafeSport and since they did create SafeSport, it kind of seems like funding it would be appropriate.

One thing this discussion has done is make me educate myself about SafeSport.

[Mac123]

@AllOverFarm

The whispers in this sport are still real. About 6 yrs ago at a circuit in Florida my then 10 yr old daughter was asked to hop on a pony for a very well known trainer. Later that night I mentioned it to a trainer friend of mine & his response was “ that trainer is known to like younger girls, be careful.”
This winter my daughter, now 17, was asked to ride a horse for the same trainer that had her ride the pony yrs ago. Once again, we were warned about this trainers “attraction to young girls”. The warning this time was from our now current trainer. My daughter told me her trainer even warned her again a second time when I wasn’t around.
Obviously, people know something, but no one has ever reported this bnt. This person goes to all the top shows & has a huge amount of horses. I won’t let my daughter ride with him again.

THIS is what’s wrong in our sport. No doubt if someone came forward with an allegation against this trainer, the same defenders of RG would ardently defend him too.

As long as we as a sport tolerate and protect trainers who “like them young,” - warning the girls instead of alerting authorities, we will support a culture that keeps victims quiet to protect inappropriate behavior.

That’s not just sad, it’s alarming.

[midstride]

@Mac123

THIS is what’s wrong in our sport. No doubt if someone came forward with an allegation against this trainer, the same defenders of RG would ardently defend him too.

As long as we as a sport tolerate and protect trainers who “like them young,” - warning the girls instead of alerting authorities, we will support a culture that keeps victims quiet to protect inappropriate behavior.

That’s not just sad, it’s alarming.

Agree with this. And the fact AOF can’t even repeat the name, or receive the backlash and threats of libel, even though it is the known gossip of the circuit. Everyone else gets to carry the burden of these creeps. Why do we do this? NO ONE IS THAT GREAT A HORSEMAN. No one is worth it.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@oneequestrienne

Rog Gage was 66 when he died. Thirty years ago he would have been 36. Forty years ago, 26. Even a 17 year old 40 years ago would have been 8-9 years younger. Again, the narrative that the whole story is that he had one 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18 is false. A succession of 17 year olds is still illegal and shows a pattern. Four victims came forward yesterday one of whom was a victim at 13… There are others younger than 17.

Wow, that is a very different set of facts than what has been presented previously. Are you a Safesport insider? It seems like you are privy to different facts than many people have heard.

[BLBGP]

@AllOverFarm

The whispers in this sport are still real. About 6 yrs ago at a circuit in Florida my then 10 yr old daughter was asked to hop on a pony for a very well known trainer. Later that night I mentioned it to a trainer friend of mine & his response was “ that trainer is known to like younger girls, be careful.”
This winter my daughter, now 17, was asked to ride a horse for the same trainer that had her ride the pony yrs ago. Once again, we were warned about this trainers “attraction to young girls”. The warning this time was from our now current trainer. My daughter told me her trainer even warned her again a second time when I wasn’t around.
Obviously, people know something, but no one has ever reported this bnt. This person goes to all the top shows & has a huge amount of horses. I won’t let my daughter ride with him again.

Did you ask your current trainer why he or she hasn’t reported this? And your trainer friend, who warns away a 10 year old (!!) because the trainer “likes younger girls” (and not “is a pedophile”)…have you questioned why they aren’t doing anything to stop it, besides whispering? Now that you know, how can you protect future victims and end this whispering?