To repeat myself, you don’t need to keep repeating yourself. Like Denali said, “No one touched on it again, because we do not agree with your opinion. It doesn’t matter how many times you explain it.”
In my opinion, being disbarred is significantly different than being sanctioned by USEF in at least two ways:
Attorneys are legally licensed by the state. They have to pass an exam and a “moral character and fitness” review. They also take a legally binding oath swearing to uphold the law. The process for revoking that license is, of necessity, a legal process.
None of that applies to horse trainers.
Being disbarred means that an attorney can no longer practice his trade. He is prevented from making a living or earning any income at all as an attorney.
All a USEF sanction means is that a horse trainer cannot participate in USEF-affiliated events. As has been pointed out more than once in this discussion, that does not prevent a trainer from continuing to make a living in the horse industry.
Zero culpability. An organization, court, ethics committee or whatever that holds someone accountable for one’s actions is not responsible for how the person who committed said acts responds to them.
Safe Sport is not responsible for the choices Rob made. He made the choice to kill himself. Why do we need to blame someone? From hearsay we know he was looking forward to a chance to defend himself at the hearing and then it was postponed and he chose to commit suicide. What the reason is you will never know. He is the only one that knows.
ETA: @OwnTooMany Dealing with a friend’s or loved ones suicide is hard. However, it is that person’s choice. One can choose to get help or one can find peace through death. It is no one’s fault. The word “fault” should not be in the conversation. I do not fault anyone who chooses suicide. I do not fault the conditions under which someone makes the decision. We all make choices when it comes to mental health. Sometimes the answer is death for some people. Grieve. Be sad. Please do not find fault when it comes to suicide.
RobGage misbehaved badly with multiple victims. In a civil proceeding, he would, if proven guilty, spend time in jail and be registered as a sex offender.
With a Safe Sport suspension whether life time or not, he is still free to teach, train buy and sell. He may not be involved in any show or competition recognised by the USE.
While Mr Gage felt free to groom and abuse junior riders, he could not bear the public opprobrium, and chose to exit.
" One too Many" feels that she alone is entitled to be judge and jury. :mad:
Go buy a bodice ripper, if you want steamy details.
Very strange that you feel qualified to do that. No offense but who elected you arbiter of that? If someone wanted to sue SS asserting wrongful death, that would be an issue for a judge to decide. As a lawyer, you’re hip to how this works.
Sometimes I wish USEF would let attorneys get involved in amicus type fashion. I deal with this crap on a regular basis in my day job and win. Frustrating to see my USEF dollars get spent batting back some of this stuff and not doing so the way I might handle the case/matter. But such is life.
@vxf111 maybe you just found the answer. During the appeals process allow amici briefs/statements (I’m not sure what the correct phrase would be for Safe Sport stuff) just like any other appeal to a Supreme Court.
It has none. He violated the rules when he violated those girls.
I do not understand how people can defend the indefensible. I will once again ask the question; what if it was your daughter, sister, wife, you? You still think SS is the issue?
A suicide is a tragedy, but then again, so is rape, and however you try to dress it up, that is what it is
ETA I am a professional. I am a mid level trainer, not a BNT, but fairly well know, even in the inner circles. I have no issue with SS at all. It is there to protect us as well. And if it helps just one person from being involved in a sexual relationship NOT of their choosing, or keeps one person safe from being coerced into an inappropriate sexual relationship, then it’s done it’s job.
Safe Sport is not responsible for the choices Rob made. He made the choice to kill himself. Why do we need to blame someone? From hearsay we know he was looking forward to a chance to defend himself at the hearing and then it was postponed and he chose to commit suicide. What the reason is you will never know. He is the only one that knows.
Well, maybe once people see on the list “banned subject to appeal”, they could petition Safe Sport for it. Lord knows I’ve seen some off the wall amici briefs so nothing new. Then again BN seems to be the only lawyer willing to fight the good fight for those who drug and abuse kids. The appellate attorneys I’ve talked to wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole. But they have ethics.
Look, I worked with Rob. He dated my co-worker/friend when she would have been about 18 and he would have been somewhere in his 40s. This was no secret. There was zero push back.
I also personally witnessed his interactions with dozens of pre & early teen girls and saw nothing untoward.
So, when this broke, I was definitely one of the ones that needed to know exactly which line was crossed. Because if it was the almost legal/barely legal situation that everyone witnessed and no one called out then we are all to blame.
But it has become abundantly clear that that is not the case, and that SS has accomplished what it set out to do: Eliminate predatory behavior in youth sports. And all the comments the equestrian set has - with zero shame - cast out into the ether for all the world to see are not just disgusting but downright embarrassing. In a supremely misguided attempt to defend Rob, his supporters have exposed just how incestuous the industry is.
IOW, the actions taken by many in the wake of Rob’s tragic death have done nothing but emphasize the need for Safe Sport… and I’m dumbfounded that they are not realizing this.
I’m not above examining SS and making changes, and I am in the FB group, but its a really weird platform we’re launching from. The skater denied all accusations; their claim is false persecution by SS. We have no such claim. We are gobsmacked by the tragic fall of an idol, and some are choosing to remain willfully blind despite the details that have rolled out since.
@OwnTooMany The burden of proof required at professional misconduct hearings varies between states and organizations. For example, the New Jersey Board of Medical Examiners utilizes a “preponderance of the evidence” legal standard - meaning that you can lose your medical license at that standard. How is a lifetime ban from the USEF a harsher punishment than losing a medical license? While you may not agree with the New Jersey Board’s model, I am just showing you a counterexample of how the “preponderance of the evidence” legal standard is used in other professional settings with sanctions that are as (if not more) severe than those imposed by SafeSport.
As I have stated previously, SafeSport chose the burden of proof after weighing the potential consequences of Type I and Type II error. Lifetime bans are sanctions that are reserved for the most severe violations of the Code, such as sexual misconduct with minors.
Honest question: Don’t you think that raising the burden of proof to “clear and convincing evidence” would allow more guilty people to escape serious sanctions?
That was the exact impression I got.
While many people in the figure skating community had similar concerns in the immediate aftermath of John Coughlin’s death by suicide, he died one day after his interim restriction was upgraded to an interim suspension. In other words, he died in the “middle” of the SafeSport investigation process. My point is, I was a bit more understanding of the resistance against SafeSport in his case than I am in Gage’s.
Rob Gage was already investigated by SafeSport and found liable of a sexual misconduct with “a number of minors” - who, in turn, gave him a lifetime ban from USEF-sanctioned activities. He was appealing that ban when (per Bernie Traurig), another woman came forward with allegations of sexual misconduct and SafeSport asked for a continuance of the appeal. We already know the identity of one of the claimants and we know that there was a informal Q&A held on June 22 to discuss their involvement in the SafeSport investigation of Rob Gage.
The only reason I could see you wanting to know more about the Q&A is to personally gauge the severity of the allegations. This is exactly why SafeSport doesn’t release more information. It is not up to you (or any of us) to “grade” their trauma.
Let’s be clear. SafeSport - as an organization and as a group of individual people - has ZERO culpability in Rob’s death. Suicide is the end result of a lot of complicated factors, often including depression and addiction. It is NOT something that can be blamed on an organization doing its job, and investigating and sanctioning him for what was clearly inappropriate behaviour. If death seemed like a preferable option to him compared to not coaching at rated shows and / or having more accusations be made public, that tells you something about the man’s mental health. It has been hashed to death here and the outcome is very clear:
this was not a case of a “one-off” consensual relationship with an “almost adult” teenager
this was not a case of false accusation / revenge / malicious prospecution
SS has clear guidelines and protocols in place for investigation and and adjudicating complaints
SS investigators are experienced and qualified to do the job
Rob Gage, and Rob Gage alone, is responsible for the consequences of his own actions
@dags said Look, I worked with Rob. He dated my co-worker/friend when she would have been about 18 and he would have been somewhere in his 40s. This was no secret. There was zero push back.
I also personally witnessed his interactions with dozens of pre & early teen girls and saw nothing untoward.
Here’s the thing: a predator is not going to LET you know. You wouldn’t see anything because they keep it behind closed doors.
Exactly. I remember this amazing couple from my childhood. They were everyone’s grandparents in my family’s circle of friends. After they both past I found out that the husband would routinely beat and rape his wife. Granted I was a kid, but I was shocked. Who they were at parties and such was not the reality behind closed doors.
