Probably the best written post yet. Thank you.
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Going back to my old friend, the Merriam-Webster dictionary…
culpable adjective
cul·”‹pa·”‹ble | \ ˈkÉ™l-pÉ™-bÉ™l
Definition of culpable
1 : meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful; The defendant is culpable for her actions.
2 archaic : GUILTY, CRIMINAL
Synonyms
blamable, blameworthy, censurable, reprehensible, reproachable
Antonyms
blameless, faultless, impeccable, irreproachable
To help you understand, I will use it in a sentence–pretty much the only sentence suitable to describe SSand RG…
The United States Center for SafeSport found Rob Gage culpable of ‘Sexual Misconduct – Involving Minor’ due to evidence and testimony by multiple victims as young as 13 years of age at the time of the abhorrent crimes, and therefore issued a lifetime ban from USEF; unable to cope with the situation, Mr Gage committed suicide.
SS is NOT culpable for RG’s suicide beyond the mere fact that it was created and people used it for its intended purpose–to right the wrongs and pain and suffering of victims and protect future victims from child molesters.
He. Was. A. Child. Molester.
Repeat.
He. Was. A. Child. Molester.
I am sorry, so sorry, that you have lost your friend. Not just the living person who took his own life, but also the image you had of who he was.
But honey, it really is time to face up to the fact that SS did not kill Rob. Rob killed Rob.
There are some very good, free resources available here: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/help-yourself/loss-survivors/
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Bravo!
FWIW, I have a friend in CA whose daughter currently rides with a friend of RG who would come to the farm to do clinics before his suspension. (My friend knew from me and others not to ever let her daughter be alone with him and warned her daughter about him.) This friend texted me last OCTOBER and told me that her trainer (friend of RG) said that they talked to Rob and “he is so distraught that he is talking about killing himself”. Clearly, at least one of his friends knew how upset he was and that he was speaking about suicide. Maybe, others knew too.
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Agreed
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But you do not even know exactly why Rob Gage killed himself. Everyone is assuming it was because of the SafeSport action, but we. do. NOT. KNOW. his real reasons, unless he left you a direct message as to why.
In a search for answers, those left behind tend to focus on the most recent events in the person’s life. But if we have the chance to find out more later, it sometimes happens that the person made this decision well before those last events occurred, and may have been following a personal plan for weeks or months.
Those last-days events and conversations may have made little or no difference to a decision already made.
No one knows exactly why someone else commits suicide unless that someone chooses to leave behind a message that informs them of the reason. Statistically, most cases of suicide do not leave such a message. It is terribly hard for those who care a great deal because they will never know for sure.
Reasons which, as has been pointed out, tend to be more focused on tunnel vision and emotional turmoil than on concrete justifications.
If Rob Gage left behind a note or other message explaining why he made this choice, I doubt it will ever be published. Few will ever know what he will have communicated - if he did communicate his reasons.
OwnTooMany, I am sorry for your loss of someone you respected so much. I hope that one day you do find more peace than you have now. But taking this to the public to try to exonerate RG from the decision of SafeSport is not having the effect that you are wishing for in this thread. I do not think you will find satisfaction in this venue.
And you are really crossing boundaries with “the degree of culpability” assertion. You are putting yourself beyond ever finding a sense of closure.
I think it would be better if you put your healing energies elsewhere. I also think it would be better if all of us stopped responding to you, because of course we are feeding something that is not helping you or anyone else any more.
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This. It makes me physically ill that someone thinks that there is any form of sexual abuse is acceptable. Like I said earlier, if it was a couple butt pinches and lewd comments and nothing else at all for 30-40 years, he would not have had a permanent ban. Those acts are also wrong, but probably wouldn’t have ended up with a permanent ban. The fact that there is at least ONE person who wants to know details in order to gauge whether or not SS is responsible for the choice this man made disgusts me. He made the decision to sexually abuse/assault minors. He was outed. He was banned for acts that he did. Not other people. How is SS responsible for his death? I don’t care how good someone is. I don’t care how kind, caring, loving… It doesn’t matter how long ago it was. He did what he did.
I swear many of these people are as seemingly blind as Susie Hutchison was with Jimmy. Maybe that last line is harsh, but I still have a really hard time believing she knew nothing about his exploits…
ETA: To dags: I think your post was excellent, so my last comment wasn’t directed toward people like you. I believe you. I’m mostly talking about those that continue to carry the pitchforks and torches. I also felt like Susie having lived with Jimmy most likely had an inkling of the goings on. Whether or not she chose to ignore the signs and/or whisperings, I have no clue. I do feel bad for her, she seems like a likable person. I have however lost all respect for Hap Hansen and those that are defending Rob.
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The analogy also falls apart when you realize that in some professional licensures EVERY SINGLE COMPLAINT IS BROUGHT BEFORE THE BOARD no matter how trivial. These boards work for the public not the licensing organization.
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I recently came to the conclusion that Jimmy groomed Rob in much the same way Jimmy groomed the girls.
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Maybe Rob realized his dirty little secret was going to be exposed and he finally came to terms with who he was. Many predators justify their actions and really believe that they are not doing anything wrong.
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I think it has to be said that mental illness, sadly, has a huge role to play in this situation. However, this post is speaking in general terms and not specific to RG.
I am no psychologist/psychiatrist/health professional, but IMO sexual predators, especially of children, are not mentally healthy in the grand scheme of things.
I believe that with many sexual predators, there is a compulsion to have control, and that compulsion completely overrides common sense and sound decision-making abilities. It’s not that “they don’t know it is wrong” per se, but more that they can’t help themselves.
Does this compulsion for control stem from their own personal trauma? I think the answer may be yes in a lot of cases. The guilt and shame of the trauma, compounded by the compulstion to control and the fear and self-loathing of the crime prevent the individual from getting help. They are trapped in their own cycle. This makes them feel even more out of control, so the cycle repeats (and sometimes accelerates or increases in severity).
And perhaps that is why perpetrators of these crimes very rarely limit themselves to one single victim.
And sometimes, the compulsion, the lack of control, the guilt, shame, fear and self-loathing become too much, and the individual chooses to end their life.
No one who is mentally well commits suicide.
Most people strugglng with mental health issues appear “normal” and even most admirable on the outside. Many are exceedingly high achievers in their chosen area of expertise.
None of this lessens the severity of the crimes, nor reduce the suffering of the victims. I’m just trying to put a bit of a gentler view on things for those who are grieving. If you look at the whole thing – end-to-end – as a mental health issue, it might be a bit easier to understand.
And please do check out https://suicidepreventionlifeline.or…oss-survivors/ as it has a lot of helpful and healing information and resources.
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SafeSport IS NOT CULPABLE IN ROB GAGE’S DEATH.
SafeSport IS NOT CULPABLE IN ROB GAGE’S DEATH.
SafeSport IS NOT CULPABLE IN ROB GAGE’S DEATH.
How many times do you need to see this posted? I’ll keep going if you need me to …
Rob Gage was a grown man who had reached a point where he was faced with the person he was, not a teenager whose friend was taunting him and insisting that he was worthless and should just end it. No one, no one was saying ANYTHING LIKE THAT to Rob Gage.
SafeSport only said: “We found that you have done these things, to this many children, and so you will not be a part of our organization anymore.”
The truth can set you free, but it can also be a mirror. What do you see when you look?
I’m sure that pedophiles say many things to themselves to “make it okay” while they are seducing children. They lie to themselves. They justify things to themselves. But SafeSport brought him to a new view. No more lying to himself about what he was, or was doing to others, or what others thought.
If anyone was taunting him, it may well have been HIS OWN, LONG DORMANT, CONSCIENCE.
@OwnTooMany, you are stretching points, attempting to reach a goal that does not exist. Like it or not, he did this to himself, and it is the end result of his own life’s path.
SafeSport IS NOT CULPABLE IN ROB GAGE’S DEATH.
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“… @Denali6298, you can continue to believe this is a black white issue and that we are all either with you or against you. I am very sad you are a victim. I hope you someday get the chance to heal and to see the world with a kinder eye that is less inflammatory, judgmental, and accusatory. I think that will come with time as you find solace in life. I am sure it is hard on you to keep seeing this topic. Just know that not all of oppose being a part of USEF because we want to drug our horses and molest kids - we want transparency, fair rules of play, and correctness and we want to be able to trust our parent organization to execute fairly, swiftly,and correctly. What many of us don’t believe in is the current execution and the costs associated with the recurring poor execution. That’s all.”
I know this is from way back in this thread, but I really feel compelled to acknowledge ‘this’ post. The hatred for those who feel there needs to be change to the system as a whole is appalling. The attitude within the equestrian community is embarrassing, at least as evident on blogs like this!
… couldn’t have said THIS any better!
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I’ll ask you the same question that i’ve asked before, because not a single person with your perspective has yet given a solid answer.
Exactly what is it you want USEF and SafeSport to do that it isn’t doing now that will give you this “transparency, fair rules of play, and correctness” and trust in your “parent organization” that it is executing “fairly, swiftly,and correctly?” Because the best that any of you has been able to do thus far is a vague request for more information and “due process.” Be specific. What is it you want? Exactly what isn’t fair about the current rules of play? What, exactly, do you mean by “transparency?” What, exactly, constitutes “correctness?”
I ask this question because thus far, it seems to me, that most of the people sharing your position aren’t driven so much by concerns about all those details, rather they’re just upset because someone they support has been sanctioned. If someone could clearly articulate exactly what it is in the process that you want changed, it might help dispel that impression.
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My guess is that if Rob Gage had remained banned and not committed suicide, there would not be the angst over SafeSport we see today.
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This alter (and the others) don’t really want reform. They want to whip up public outcry because this alter (and the others) represents people being subject to disciplinary hearings. Some of these clients have pretty bad reputations (likely deserving). The hue and cry over “due process” helps divert focus from what the clients have done, makes them seem righteous when they are not, and to some extent might sway USEF.
Look at the KF/LG GABA case. There are pretty good scientific reasons why an A sample and a B sample tested in totally different timeframes could test differently. BN created a hue and cry over the process, that there was some chain of custody issue with the B sample and she whipped people up over it. It changed the subject from how much everyone thought KF/LG had a reputation for drugging/how drugging was a widespread problem into a discussion about process… and she successfully got their sanctions overturned. It’s a strategy and it works.
I think there are people who genuinely question the process… but I don’t think these alters are in that group. I think these alters have a very specific, self-interested agenda. Don’t give them oxygen, it’s what they crave.
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Excellent point.
I’ve been thinking that they were some who had been being groomed, and had an emotional connection that that creates, and so the emotional loss.
But you may be right. These alters may well be abusers who want to change the discussion, because they see the horror that they are, and attempt to sidetrack others from seeing it too.
We should ignore them. They should fade away.
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Thank you for the information about the New Jersey Medical Board’s standard of proof. You are correct about the use of a “preponderance of the evidence” standard. I now know more about the New Jersey Medical Board’s procedures and some of the related case law than I ever expected to. So this is very useful and moves my thinking forward.
You discussed the Type 1 and Type 2 error framework in a previous post. I was going to comment on that message saying that I basically have no issue with your framing of the problem (but ran out of time). So I can accept framing the issue as a trade-off between Type 1 error (convicting an innocent) and Type 2 error (allowing a guilty person off).
Answer to your honest question: I agree that raising the burden of proof to “clear and convincing” would, most likely, result in more guilty people getting off. The connection to an increased risk of a sexual assault occurring in the future is less clear, but may well be there as well. But, of course, there is a trade-off of more innocent people being sanctioned.
Based on what you say, it sounds like you may know how the SafeSport disciplinary procedure was created. Was it based on any particular model from some other context? I would be very interested in knowing what systems were used as the model. Usually when a new system is designed, it is based on some other system (perhaps with modifications) so it is quite likely that the designers of SafeSport’s system had something in mind.
(I can tell it was not the NJ Medical Board as that system is, overall, very different.)
Yes, what you write in the paragraph immediately above is almost exactly my understanding of things in the Rob Gage case. I really know very little about Coughlin’s case.
I reject the notion that asking the the question I am (about SafeSport’s culpability) is a question that should not be asked. You and I may have to agree to disagree about that.
Answering the question (about SafeSport’s culpability, if any) involves assessing whether or not a lifetime ban was a fair sanction. There are two aspects to the sanction: (1) punishment and (2) prevention of future assaults. In order to make such an assessment, one needs to know what he was found by SafeSport to have done at about the level of specificity of the Code (which is not salacious details). SafeSport’s “sexual misconduct” category is so broad as to not have sufficient meaningful information.
For me, I want to know exact details. What exactly was they accused/charged with that was given a lifetime ban. I know this has been hashed before and I know I have said it before. If a teacher is tossed in jail, the news is only too happy to give details (no names of course). Many argue here that that is because it is a legal proceeding. While SS has no “legal” reason to give us details, I think that is what many want. It would give a clearer understanding.
See how easy it is to accuse people of something? You just accused several people of something that I know is not true for all. We DO want reform. We have spelled out how and why multiple times, yet you continue to make sweeping and unfair judgmental statements.
THIS Is why so many people question what is going on. Because the "court of Social Media"and the court of public opinion in the world today, in general, are both really, really good at accusation not based on fact but based on their own personal opinions and perspective. It’s just gotten too easy to accuse people, as you have just demonstrated.
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I’m not talking about you. I am talking about the alters. I said that specifically. There are clearly a couple alters on here who are shit stirring and it’s fairly obvious who that is hiding behind the screen name.
Did you see this part of my post (post #1600, the one you’re up in arms about)? Did you read it? The whole thing?
I don’t know HOW I could have been more clear. You did not create an alter to post on this thread. You are posting with the same screen name you always use and not pretending to be someone you’re not. You and others fall into the group of “people who genuinely question the process.” My comment was specific, pointed, and very clearly ONLY about the obvious alter screen names on this thread.
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