I was just curious if at some point in the future USEF would be able to require that anyone that holds a USEF trainer card & trains clients at USEF shows be required to pass a background check. Other sports & clubs do this currently, also just to volunteer at my kids school, I have to be fingerprinted & get a background check.
It just seems like a good way for the governing body of the sport to help protect kids. Just curious as to people’s thoughts on this. I realize grooms & other professionals not members, couldn’t be held to this same standard. But, possibly all USEF carded trainers could be responsible for their employees.
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Sexual misconduct - involving a minor. Pretty self explanatory.
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Seriously. These people are crazy. Like I think they’re going to show up on victims lawns or at their stalls at shows demanding positions and orifices. it’s pretty damn horrific.
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Yes, you answered this question when I asked it earlier and I appreciate it. I think I asked you then if you had read the SafeSport code, definitions, policies, and procedures. I don’t recall if you answered. I ask because the definitions of the various types of sexual misconduct are sufficiently explicit that I’m not willing to copy and paste them here on a message board where younger riders will see them.
Exactly what constitutes “Sexual misconduct - involving a minor” is pretty well spelled out. In addition, we know, again, from SafeSport itself (read the policies and procedures), that the severity of the sanction is a function of the severity of the misconduct and the age and number of victims.
I think this is something that we’re just going to have to disagree on because I don’t think there is any benefit to making public any more details than SafeSport does currently.
I’m also going to disagree with you equating SafeSport investigations with a teacher being tossed in jail. Apples and oranges. If SafeSport forwards a report to legal authorities and they investigate and go arrest a trainer for molesting one of his students, you can bet it would be all over the news and we would know the details.
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I have spent the last two days reading all 81 pages of this thread.
I’ve told both my sons (adults) about what I’ve read here and told them if they ever get riding lessons for their kids to find a WOMAN to teach them.
So far I have two grandsons, both absolutely gorgeous boys (yes, I am “barn blind” but other people do agree with me about this). After reading all of this I never, ever want them to be taught by a male riding teacher. I know there are evil women, but women find it much harder to do forcible rape because women do not have some of the necessary equipment to do forcible rape.
Why am I worried about my grandsons? Back when I started riding there were still some boys who wanted to ride hunt seat, and because of their social class and possible higher education would be able to afford riding as adults. I have talked to adult males who told me that they still mourn their childhood ponies (sold or dead) but they often do not get further into horses. In fact, at least in the hunt seat stables I’ve ridden at, there are few males of any age at all.
I am starting to suspect that there are dark reasons for this in the hunt seat world (since there are still boys active in Western and Saddle Seat stables along with plenty of adult male riders). All of a sudden, during my life, it seems that hunt seat has gone from an acceptable sport for heterosexual males, one that proved their courage and athletic ability, to a field with some men at the top and darn few boys in the lower levels, leaving the field to girls and women.
I know that there are still honorable men who do not sexually abuse children, women or men in the hunt seat world, but how in the world can I be really sure about any particular male riding teacher/coach? All of the attempts at minimizing or excusing these sexual predator men just makes me much more likely to conclude that for my precious grandsons it would be best for them NOT to have a male riding teacher.
And if I am ever lucky enough to have a granddaughter my fear about this would be tripled.
If enough parents or grandparents come to this conclusion male riding teachers could end up with a lot fewer students than they otherwise would have had. It might take decades for this to work its way through the general population, but if it does being a male riding teacher may mean a life of even more poverty than they suffer now.
As for myself I am very happy now that I never had enough money to afford lessons with a big name male riding teacher. My female riding teachers did not coddle me, I got plenty of sharp and pointed corrections and they really did not care if they hurt my feelings. I am grateful for their rigor, for their insistence on good horsemanship, and for the fact that no female riding teacher ever made a sexual advance to me much less seduced or raped me.
I have been riding horses seriously, trying to be the best rider I can be within my physical limitations (MS), for almost 50 years. I have been alone with several horsemen (barn managers, breeders) and never run into any problems. But times have changed, and if now it is “somewhat acceptable” for male riding teachers/coaches to sexually assault their under-aged students, well I do not want my grandsons to go through this.
It just seems so much safer to me if my sons send my precious grandchildren to a qualified female riding teacher. This is a great pity because boys need to have good male role models, but today it just does not feel safe to me.
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I’m going to be totally blunt here. I think it’s disgusting that you and others want to know exact details with regards to the sex acts that Rob Gage performed on, or had performed on him by, children as young as 13 years old so that you can decide which sex acts might have been ok in your mind and therefore Safesport overstepped by banning him for life? Seriously wtf is wrong with you people?
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@Jackie Cochran Female trainers can also groom boys as well. It wouldn’t be forcible rape, but it would still be wrong. Tell your sons to have someone they trust there with their kids if they want to take lessons. No matter the gender of the trainer. And do thorough checks on the trainer as well.
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Women may be less likely to sexually assault, but there is still lots of room for verbal and emotional abuse, which can also involve grooming. Having a responsible adult present and able to evaluate the quality of teaching and behaviour is really the best answer.
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“Forcible rape” is not the only problem. Grooming children is a problem as well. Supposed “consensual” sexual activity between adults and minors works both ways, the predator can be of either sex. There is no consent where a minor male and an adult female are concerned and minors that are male can be groomed and seduced, just as female minors can.
Have you read the safe sport guidelines or taken the online training? It is very informative, and if you haven’t I urge you to do so, since your ideas regarding the abuse of minors don’t reflect the reality of child sexual abuse. :yes:
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Perhaps we would all have a clearer understanding of your need for details if you would first explain exactly what sexual misconduct involving a minor that you find acceptable and undeserving of a lifetime ban.
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What gives us the right to know the exact details and why should we be privy to them? I’m it sure what difference that would make. We don’t get to substitute our judgement for that of the SafeSport investigators, even if we were privy to all the information they had.
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At this point, especially when it’s obvious to everyone that in fact there was sexual misconduct with minors on his part, this is a truly awful thing to say. Talk about your victim blaming.
Let’s be clear.
SafeSport isn’t culpable.
The investigators at SafeSport aren’t culpable.
His victims aren’t culpable.
The girls who rode with him who weren’t victims aren’t culpable.
His current significant other isn’t culpable.
His previous significant other isn’t culpable.
His friends aren’t culpable.
His clients aren’t culpable.
His attorneys aren’t culpable.
If the DA had notified him of a criminal investigation, the DA isn’t culpable.
Suicide always sucks for those left behind.
Rob killed Rob. It is sad that he made that choice, and I’m sorry he did. None of us know why he thought that was his best move.
I’m sorry he had a terrible role model for how to interact with women and girls.
We don’t stop having rules against misconduct because someone might commit suicide if they’re charged - or caught.
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It only tells me that the person joined COTH Forums on June 20, 2019, and their first post ever was June 24…the day you posted this info.
Now what ?
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And/or, that OwnTooMany is an alter. OTM could have another, much older screen ID on COTH that has, say, thousands of posts. Maybe not, but it’s a consideration.
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Who cares ?
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Just pointing out the likely possibility that this alter is a troll with an ax to grind. However, with your lengthy participation on this board, you already knew that. Their comment which (came after my comment) wanting to know the details of the sexual misconduct committed by RG with minor children so they could personally decide if a lifetime ban from USEF and other Olympic Sports is appropriate, supports that supposition. This was a pretty old post for of mine taken out of context by you. One wonders why you would bother with it now but, then again, maybe it’s your alter. So then, do tell which acts of sexual misconduct with minors do you think are OK?
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^^Bolded mine.
Please explain to me, in exact detail, what particular crimes within ‘Sexual Misconduct - Involving Minor’ you are a-ok, hunky-dorey fine with? Please.
What sex acts with children are you exactly OK with???
Do you honestly, honestly think that SS is handing out lifetime bans for a single pat on the bum or a consoling hug after a bad day? Do you?
Do you think the brave victims who have gone public to identify themselves now need to stand up again and provide you with the particulars of the times, places, acts and parts of anatomy involved?
And who exactly should publish these exact details you require without running the risk of child pornography charges?
Listen, at some point, you just have to accept the fact that
- Rob Gage was a child molester
- His acts were, in fact, ‘severe enough’ in terms of the impact they had on his victims (yes, victims – as young as 12 or 13 years of age at the time of the incidents) for them to risk their own reputations and sanity by coming forward to SS (and then again, publicly, after RG’s death)
- SS followed its well-published and highly scrutinized process (if you think figure skating didn’t scrutinize the heck out of it after JC’s suicide, please talk to @FiSk123 )
- SS agreed that RG was a child molester
- Being a child molester is a lifetime ban
- Rob killed Rob
- SafeSport is not and was not culpable in Rob’s death
- Rob’s victims are not and were not culpable in Rob’s death
- None of us get to know the exact details of this case unless or until such time as the victims decide to share their experiences; they are not and should not be under ANY obligation to do so
- Unless you are yourself engaging in sex acts with children, you have very little to fear from SafeSport
Got it?
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This is a response to the posts that say things along the lines of “RG is guilty of sexual misconduct with a minor. What more do you need to know?” and attack anyone who wants more details about SafeSport’s finding as being immoral.
(1) “Sexual misconduct with a minor” sounds absolutely horrible but, as defined by SafeSport, it includes behavior that is perfectly legal in the 38 states that have an age of consent of 16 or 17. It is not unreasonable to inquire as to whether or not the findings include legal behavior or even to inquire whether the behavior was such that it would be legal in some jurisdictions and illegal in others.
(2) “Sexual misconduct” as defined by SafeSport includes a very wide range of behaviors that range from acts as serious as forcible rape to much less serious acts such as verbal harassment of a sexual nature. While all of the behaviors are undesirable, reasonable people could conclude that some of them would not merit a sanction as severe as a lifetime ban.
In my opinion, a central question relating to whether or not a lifetime ban is appropriate has to do with the likelihood that the Responder (SafeSport’s term) will re-offend. That is, the likelihood that they represent an ongoing threat.
(3) Age of the victims has important bearing on assessing the likelihood that the Responder represents an ongoing threat. Specifically, pedophiles are known to have a high likelihood of re-offense, pedophilia is an identified psychiatric disorder, and pedophilia basically cannot be cured (this may be a somewhat unfair simplification). But pedophilia involves sexual attraction and/or acts with prepubescent children. For an act or desire to fall under the umbrella of pedophilia it must involve a prepubescent target or victim. Thus whether the victims are prepubescent, pubescent, or postpubescent is central in assessing the ongoing threat.
I understand that “pedophile” is frequently used in common language to refer to any acts or desires that involve any minor, but that is an incorrect use of the term. If you are unfamiliar with this and want to learn more, the Wikpedia pages are not a bad place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia
In any case, none of the allegations that I know about with respect to RG involve acts of pedophilia, so it appears to me that currently there is no evidence that RG was a pedophile. If the facts change, my assessment will change.
I am trying to have a serious, measured, and fact- and science-based discussion here. If I assume the worst case of alleged “facts” to be true (RG < 30 years old at the time, between 5 and 10 victims that are all post-pubescent, no accusations about recent events - more than 20 years, RG 67 years old now), I see no way that SafeSport could reasonably conclude that RG was an ongoing threat (at a preponderance of the evidence level or even a lower level). There appears to be no research that would support such a conclusion and I have searched quite hard to find it.
Given the nature of the horse world, there must be quite a few professionals on this forum and at least a few psychologists and maybe one or two psychiatrists. I do not have expertise in this area (although I do have other scientific expertise) and I would be thrilled if a few experts would share with us their expertise on this issue (assessing the likelihood of on-going threat). I welcome measured, fact- and science-based challenges, especially if they include references or at least enough information that the basis for the conclusions can be found. There is an opportunity to educate me and perhaps others. We can have a serious conversation in spite of the noise.
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So this has been discussed at length. It’s also been stated a private organization can set the “sexual misconduct with a minor” limit at 17 despite state law.
The recidivism rate has been discussed. The age limits have been discussed. The ages of the victims have been discussed.
Re-read the thread and take notes if you need to. We get the conversation you are trying to have. Again, us not engaging with you in splitting hairs isn’t that we don’t want an intelligent conversation. WE DON’T AGREE WITH YOU.
WE DON’T AGREE WITH YOU.
I think the Facebook group to overhaul Safe Sport is a better place for you.
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🌹🌹🌹 This.
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