Rob Gage

[eclipse]

Well, let’s see…I live right across the street from Spruce Meadows (you can’t get bigger than that)…they take “paid working riders-and grooms that learn and become riders if they want it” every year BUT they have to be at least 18! They don’t seem to have any issues and problem solved they’re not worried about kids! Honestly, this “working students as a kid thing” just doesn’t seem to be done here…it seems to be an American thing! Yes we have catch riders and yes teens and kids ride extra horses at the barns…we just don’t take them out of school to do it!

My trainers rule is, if you want a summer or weekend job at the barn a) you must be 17, b) you must possess a valid drivers license and c) you’ll be paid and she carries workers compensation!

Honestly…trainers shouldn’t be talking to students about sex anyway…wth?

[ladyj79]

I lived with my trainer for weeks at a time under the age of 18, and travelled with her to clinics and shows

those were invaluable experiences.

I would absolutely trade them all if it meant preventing the abuse of one child.

[Ghazzu]

@APirateLooksAtForty

What part of my one-on-one mentoring example that I referenced are YOU not getting? It was invaluable to me as a jr. Do you really think trainers in huge barns like Heritage for example who take 75-80 horses to a show have time to make sure every single safesport i is dotted and t is crossed? The answer is they don’t which means they will hire employees and the days of the working student (and therefore the days of amazing yet maybe less financially well-positioned riders) are slowly fading into the darkness. Look, I ride with a BNT. It has already been discussed: no more working students, and no more giving a ride to a pony kid to the vet or the feed store etc to let them see other parts of the horse business. It’s a shame. I see a need for SafeSport. I just don’t agree with how it is being implemented. I also think a lot of people in this thread aren’t dealing with huge AA show barns or know how they function and operate. I can see how these guidelines would be much simpler to implement at the C show or smaller barn level. Go ahead and come at me with your guns ablazing for saying that … seems to always happen when that subject is mentioned. But to be frank I believe that is why the disconnect among the crowd on here vs Facebook … those trainers you all are reading on Facebook are concerned about the practicality of SS and its implications for current working students and pony kids in a big show barn setting. That’s my point of view too.

So the rules should only apply to the little people?

[Tackpud]

@eclipse

Well, let’s see…I live right across the street from Spruce Meadows (you can’t get bigger than that)…they take “paid working riders-and grooms that learn and become riders if they want it” every year BUT they have to be at least 18! They don’t seem to have any issues and problem solved they’re not worried about kids! Honestly, this “working students as a kid thing” just doesn’t seem to be done here…it seems to be an American thing! Yes we have catch riders and yes teens and kids ride extra horses at the barns…we just don’t take them out of school to do it!

My trainers rule is, if you want a summer or weekend job at the barn a) you must be 17, b) you must possess a valid drivers license and c) you’ll be paid and she carries workers compensation!

Honestly…trainers shouldn’t be talking to students about sex anyway…wth?

With junior show age ending at 18, many working students will continue to be underage because they need that experience before they age out. Medal finals are an invaluable experience for junior riders and some kids can only get there through working student positions. Can this be done within the guidelines of SafeSport? Yes. Is there going to be an adjustment period? Of course. Why is this so scary to so many? Our sport has many traditions - good and bad - and change is hard for some.

It’s not very hard to keep yourself out of a compromising position with juniors. Use common sense and be an adult.

[OwnTooMany]

@MHM

Do the restrictions apply between minors and adults when the adult is not in a position of authority over the minor?

In other words, not trainer/student, but two students in the same barn, when one student is a minor and the other student is an adult.

I think the answer is, more of less, yes; that is, it is strongly discouraged.

The USEF interpretation of the SafeSport policies is at the following link:
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0…e-sport-policy

On page 27 it says: [INDENT]B. Recommended Best Practices

USEF recommends the following components:

Out-of-program contacts

USEF recommends that Applicable Adults refrain from interacting one-on-one with unrelated minor athletes in settings outside of the program that are not observable and interruptible (including, but not limited to, one’s home and individual transportation), unless parent/legal guardian consent is provided for each out-of-program contact. Such arrangements are strongly discouraged.[/INDENT]

Here, “settings outside of the program” is your barn.

On page 26, the term “Applicable Adult” is defined: [INDENT]ONE-ON-ONE INTERACTIONS

A. Mandatory Components

This policy shall apply to:

1. Adult members who have regular contact with amateur athletes who are minors;

2. Any adult authorized by USEF to have regular contact with or authority over an amateur athlete who is a minor;

3. Adult members at a facility that is either partially or fully under the jurisdiction of USEF or at USEF licensed, endorsed, sponsored activity; and

4. Adult staff and board members of USEF.(Collectively “Applicable Adult” for the purposes of this Policy[/INDENT]

So I think item 1 applies to you (assuming you are a USEF member). The only ambiguity I see concerns what “regular contact with amateur athletes” means. It seems like being at a barn where you are around teenagers on a regular basis (because both you and they are “students” and both you and they board their horses at the barn) would qualify.

So, if you are a USEF member and are at your barn, by yourself, working on your horse and a teenager shows up unaccompanied (because 16 and 17 year olds can drive), you are probably in a “strongly discouraged” situation (especially if you actually interact with the teen).

I wonder if you have a duty to leave or otherwise retreat from unaccompanied minors?

BTW, for one-on-one contact to be OK seems to require that another adult be present. Teenage witnesses are not sufficient. This is also from page 26: [INDENT]a. Observable and interruptible

One-on-one interactions between a minor athlete and an Applicable Adult (who is not the minor’s legal guardian) at a facility partially or fully under USEF’s jurisdiction or at a USEF licensed, endorsed, sponsored activity are permitted if they occur at an observable and interruptible distance by another adult.[/INDENT]

Now strictly speaking, this applies only to facilities under USEF’s jurisdiction. But is would suggest a similar criterion for interactions occurring at other locations.

Everything you do is now subject to paragraphs and paragraphs of USEF “law.”

[Tiramit]

@OwnTooMany

Yes, it can be done, but for many trainers/barn owners it will not be worth it. I predict that many working student opportunities will disappear for students under 18. And this will be the case even when the trainer/barn owner and student are both female. If the trainer/barn owner is male, with the presumption of guilt that seems pervasive, it will be far more risky to have a working student under 18 (of either gender).

I find this reaction rather laughable, really. At their heart the SS requirements are basically common sense. Don’t, as an adult, put yourself in a 1-1 situation (or if it must be, make it in a public setting with witnesses). Don’t put a child in a situation where it will feel threatened or at risk. Duh. That’s called being a decent, aware human being. In any industry.

By following SS you wouldn’t have to cut off a kid from an enhanced education. As a trainer with a vet visit: a) text the parent that you’re taking their kid on a vet ride-along, b) bring 2 kids instead of 1, c) or bring 2 kids and another adult. Make it a working student field trip.

Taking on working students overnight? Set up a different housing arrangement with 2 or more students. Make it more like boarding school where there is a clear delineation between the trainer’s space and the students’.

Frankly children living in close-quarters with non-related guardians is not the norm. Why not treat it like a school experience and follow the teacher / student protocol set up throughout the United States? Instead of punishing the kids, why not start acting like responsible adults?

It’s really not that hard to be a non-predatory adult or avoid giving the appearance of a potential predator. A lot of us manage it without trying all that hard. It’s time those who have been coasting along to get with the what the rest of the world lives with, easily, every day.

[Tiramit]

An additional comment mentioned earlier in this thread… Install video cameras around the barn. They’re cheap and would be helpful for more than SS protection. I have them around my barn and property and there aren’t any kids roaming the grounds.

[Jealoushe]

You mean barns will have to start PAYING for help instead of using cheap labour in children, and barn help will actually have to get a living wage. The horror. No one is stopping anyone from learning or gaining experience, just making sure when they do they arent in danger of being abused or having their lives ruined.

[Capall]

Pretty much any other organization working with minors follows a strict “2 deep” rule. People pissed and moaned about it at first with Scouting. But now it’s just done. It’s not that hard, really. It’s for protection of everyone. It protects against false accusations as well which some people seem to be so worried about. What is so bad about protecting children from sexual abuse? Why is that concept so hard for some to grasp? That is literally the whole reason behind SS. The rules are not punishments. Punishments are for people who abuse children. How inconvenient.

[FiSk123]

@ladyj79

I lived with my trainer for weeks at a time under the age of 18, and travelled with her to clinics and shows

those were invaluable experiences.

I would absolutely trade them all if it meant preventing the abuse of one child.

I just showed your comment to a few people I’ve worked with (who are also survivors of abuse from different sports) and it almost moved one of them to tears. All I can say is thank you.

[Denali6298]

@OwnTooMany

I think the answer is, more of less, yes; that is, it is strongly discouraged.

The USEF interpretation of the SafeSport policies is at the following link:
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0…e-sport-policy

On page 27 it says: [INDENT]B. Recommended Best Practices

USEF recommends the following components:

Out-of-program contacts

USEF recommends that Applicable Adults refrain from interacting one-on-one with unrelated minor athletes in settings outside of the program that are not observable and interruptible (including, but not limited to, one’s home and individual transportation), unless parent/legal guardian consent is provided for each out-of-program contact. Such arrangements are strongly discouraged.[/INDENT]

Here, “settings outside of the program” is your barn.

On page 26, the term “Applicable Adult” is defined: [INDENT]ONE-ON-ONE INTERACTIONS

A. Mandatory Components

This policy shall apply to:

1. Adult members who have regular contact with amateur athletes who are minors;

2. Any adult authorized by USEF to have regular contact with or authority over an amateur athlete who is a minor;

3. Adult members at a facility that is either partially or fully under the jurisdiction of USEF or at USEF licensed, endorsed, sponsored activity; and

4. Adult staff and board members of USEF.(Collectively “Applicable Adult” for the purposes of this Policy[/INDENT]

So I think item 1 applies to you (assuming you are a USEF member). The only ambiguity I see concerns what “regular contact with amateur athletes” means. It seems like being at a barn where you are around teenagers on a regular basis (because both you and they are “students” and both you and they board their horses at the barn) would qualify.

So, if you are a USEF member and are at your barn, by yourself, working on your horse and a teenager shows up unaccompanied (because 16 and 17 year olds can drive), you are probably in a “strongly discouraged” situation (especially if you actually interact with the teen).

I wonder if you have a duty to leave or otherwise retreat from unaccompanied minors?

BTW, for one-on-one contact to be OK seems to require that another adult be present. Teenage witnesses are not sufficient. This is also from page 26: [INDENT]a. Observable and interruptible

One-on-one interactions between a minor athlete and an Applicable Adult (who is not the minor’s legal guardian) at a facility partially or fully under USEF’s jurisdiction or at a USEF licensed, endorsed, sponsored activity are permitted if they occur at an observable and interruptible distance by another adult.[/INDENT]

Now strictly speaking, this applies only to facilities under USEF’s jurisdiction. But is would suggest a similar criterion for interactions occurring at other locations.

Everything you do is now subject to paragraphs and paragraphs of USEF “law.”

Not at all. I posted this back a few pages but I emailed Teresa Roper, the USEF Safe Sport coordinator. She said it only apply to adults in positions of authority or power. The sections you highlighted don’t apply to boarders.

Amazing what happens when you ask the appropriate people questions instead of playing lawyer on a BB.

[Denali6298]

@MHM my question and the response

Dear Ms Roper,

I am writing to see you could provide some clarification for the rules regarding minors being alone with adults. My question is, how does this policy impact the Adult Amateur who finds themselves alone at the barn with a minor? Will the permission granted in writing by the parent for their child to be alone with the trainer cover adult boarders?

Thank you for your time.

Her response:

My apologizes for the delayed response.

The MAAP policies would not imply in your scenario. The only time consent would be warranted is if training in the same barn and you were an adult in a position of power (i.e. the minor’s trainer, coach).

Thanks,
Teresa

[CindyCRNA]

@APirateLooksAtForty

What part of my one-on-one mentoring example that I referenced are YOU not getting? It was invaluable to me as a jr. Do you really think trainers in huge barns like Heritage for example who take 75-80 horses to a show have time to make sure every single safesport i is dotted and t is crossed? The answer is they don’t which means they will hire employees and the days of the working student (and therefore the days of amazing yet maybe less financially well-positioned riders) are slowly fading into the darkness. Look, I ride with a BNT. It has already been discussed: no more working students, and no more giving a ride to a pony kid to the vet or the feed store etc to let them see other parts of the horse business. It’s a shame. I see a need for SafeSport. I just don’t agree with how it is being implemented. I also think a lot of people in this thread aren’t dealing with huge AA show barns or know how they function and operate. I can see how these guidelines would be much simpler to implement at the C show or smaller barn level. Go ahead and come at me with your guns ablazing for saying that … seems to always happen when that subject is mentioned. But to be frank I believe that is why the disconnect among the crowd on here vs Facebook … those trainers you all are reading on Facebook are concerned about the practicality of SS and its implications for current working students and pony kids in a big show barn setting. That’s my point of view too.

I get what you are saying. When I was in school in the 70’s, our teachers hugged us. It was great. Now a teacher won’t even put a hand on a students shoulder. It’s just a sad commentary on today’s society.

[Denali6298]

@CindyCRNA

I get what you are saying. When I was in school in the 70’s, our teachers hugged us. It was great. Now a teacher won’t even put a hand on a students shoulder. It’s just a sad commentary on today’s society.

How is it a sad commentary on today’s society. Children were being molested and abused back in the 70’s as well. It would be a sad commentary if we neglected to take measures to prevent abuse and let creepy teachers hug students.

[Texarkana]

@APirateLooksAtForty

What part of my one-on-one mentoring example that I referenced are YOU not getting?

The part that absolutely 100% necessitates complete privacy between you and your trainer.

It was invaluable to me as a jr. Do you really think trainers in huge barns like Heritage for example who take 75-80 horses to a show have time to make sure every single safesport i is dotted and t is crossed?

Full disclosure: I have never worked at a barn that took 75-80 horses to a show. But I’m not some country bumpkin who hasn’t been around.

But especially in your example of a huge show barn, I’m failing to see the inconvenience. Can you explain exactly which policies are so hard to follow? Why would a massive show barn have a hard time making sure adults aren’t in uninterruptible, private situations with minors? Why would a massive show barn have a hard time making sure adults aren’t engaging in extended private message exchanges with minors? There would be enough people around that it’s a non-issue.

Additionally, there is no “SafeSport Police.” If a trainer accidentally privately messages their student, or ends up alone with their student, no one is going to show up at the barn to “ban” them on the spot. If you’re conducting an honest business, the likelihood that you would end up in trouble over minute policies is slim.

The answer is they don’t which means they will hire employees and the days of the working student (and therefore the days of amazing yet maybe less financially well-positioned riders) are slowly fading into the darkness. Look, I ride with a BNT. It has already been discussed: no more working students, and no more giving a ride to a pony kid to the vet or the feed store etc to let them see other parts of the horse business. It’s a shame.

If barns are so scared of SafeSport that they think the only way to avoid a SafeSport infraction is to avoid all minors, that is foolish. Many of them are just not taking the time to review the actual policies-- they are only reading the headlines, listening to the scuttlebutt spread through gossip and social media, and basing their decisions on misinformation.

This is an area where I think USEF does need to step in to improve SafeSport for equestrians. The online training doesn’t really address how SafeSport compliance looks in specific sports. I would love to see USEF create easily accessible information on how to conduct your training business in a manner that is in accordance with SafeSport. I can think of a few ways they could effectively do so and reach the majority of their members.

I also do strongly believe a small percentage of barns who are freaking out over SafeSport are doing so out of guilt-- they KNOW something, or have engaged in something themselves, and know it is just a matter of time before they are caught. Instead of admitting to your clients and supporters that you are guilty of questionable behavior, it’s a whole lot easier to make a lot of noise against it.

I see a need for SafeSport. I just don’t agree with how it is being implemented. I also think a lot of people in this thread aren’t dealing with huge AA show barns or know how they function and operate. I can see how these guidelines would be much simpler to implement at the C show or smaller barn level. Go ahead and come at me with your guns ablazing for saying that … seems to always happen when that subject is mentioned. But to be frank I believe that is why the disconnect among the crowd on here vs Facebook … those trainers you all are reading on Facebook are concerned about the practicality of SS and its implications for current working students and pony kids in a big show barn setting. That’s my point of view too.

Again, I’m no country bumpkin. I was fully immersed in top A barns as a junior and into college. I was a live-in working student for two summers when I was 15 and 16, granted not at a top barn. I was a working student with several AA show barns from 17 into my first two years of college. I lost interest in the hunters in college, but I remained active in the professional horse industry for several years after college. But my resume is irrelevant. I am currently employed in an industry where I work with minors day in day out, and I feel that is FAR more relevant to the conversation than my show record. I live the life SafeSport is proposing and it is 100% honestly no big deal.

When I was a live-in working student as a minor, the barn was just a busy riding school who did local stuff. They had a program specifically for teenage working students, which is what attracted me-- live away from home, be immersed in the industry, etc. This was back in the 1990s. I’m not going to pretend it was exactly the same as being at a massive AA barn, because it wasn’t… yet at the same time, not all that much was different in terms of responsibility. They had what I thought was the dumbest rule at the time: there were four of us young working students and we had to follow the “buddy system.” We were never allowed to be in the barn alone without at least one other working student. We didn’t need to be in the same place or anything-- one of us could be mucking, the other could be turning out horses or riding. It also applied to shows, or even going out in the evening if by some miracle we had time to do so. Our trainer (a woman) was a real stickler for it. We thought it was SO stupid. Looking back, it was really progressive… I fail to see how even the busiest of barns couldn’t employ similar. It’s not like it took any time at all for our trainer to enforce it… she pretty much only had to threaten us once that if we couldn’t follow the rule, we didn’t need to be there.

[IPEsq]

When I went to shows as a teen with a big program without a parent (I could drive my own trailer starting at 16), we would often have either a condo with a parent or two in their own rooms or groups of students would have a hotel room together. That has it’s own down sides, but in any event, those barns with the most desirable working student positions definitely can comply with the SS requirements. And when I was younger than driving age, there was always another adult around on the trips that my parents didn’t come on, whether it was adult clients, trainer’s spouse, someone else’s parent(s), or the barn managers.

[poltroon]

@APirateLooksAtForty

What part of my one-on-one mentoring example that I referenced are YOU not getting? It was invaluable to me as a jr. Do you really think trainers in huge barns like Heritage for example who take 75-80 horses to a show have time to make sure every single safesport i is dotted and t is crossed?

And yet they have time to make sure every hoof is polished before it goes into the ring. They have the time to make sure every horse is freshly braided every day. They have time to make sure the special horses get their particular program for warmup.

Horsemen have plenty of time for details. Every one of them will tell you it’s how you win.

The annoyance is because protecting humans from abuse is not a priority. These practices will also help protect professionals from misunderstandings and false accusations.

[FiSk123]

I’ve spent most of this work week cataloging every violation that resulted in “Permanent Ineligibility” that was not under “Criminal Disposition - Sexual Misconduct” or “Criminal Disposition - Involving a Minor”. So far, my search has found:

• An athlete who was arrested and charged with felony sexual battery and false imprisonment (the criminal charges were ultimately dismissed, however).
• A coach whose former athlete was granted a permanent restraining order against them due to sexual harassment and stalking (the evidence included over 15,000 text messages)
• A coach who purchased his then 14 year old student lingerie and exchanged sexual messages with them over SnapChat (this coach was sentenced to 3 years probation for the incident after a plea deal).
• A coach who was accused of raping an underage student, tried in criminal court and acquitted in 2005. When another student came forward with similar allegations, the coach was arrested and charged again, however, the charges were ultimately dismissed. The reason - the former student died of an apparent overdose two months prior to testifying.

The reason I bring this up is because I feel like some of the apprehension around the SafeSport recommendations come from fear of SafeSport itself. You’re not getting suspended for hugging a student after they win a competition. You’re not getting banned for life for accidentally texting a 16 year old “good morning” without another adult in the chat. In reality, these guidelines provide protection for all covered individuals - coaches and athletes alike.

Also, as several of you have already stated, these recommended guidelines did not come out of thin air. Other institutions, especially in education, follow the same guidelines.

Honestly, I’m also a bit confused by the push back against the recommendations since my job has much stricter guidelines than SafeSport (granted, considering the nature of my profession, this makes a lot of sense).

[poltroon]

One more thing on the sadness of underage students not getting working student positions, which I agree can be valuable, exciting opportunities:

The twenty year history of this board is FULL of whispernet about abusive situations young students have found themselves in, sexual and otherwise. It’s shockingly common for those experiences not to go well. It’s long past time to do better.

[KellyS]

I know I am just one of many thinking this, but <note sarcasm> isn’t it amazing how the majority of us that are employed outside of the horse industry manage to work within the rules and guidelines set forth with regard to sexual harassment and do just fine?

I received a work email last week notifying me of new sexual harassment training that I needed to take within the upcoming month. The email stated:

“There is new [US] legislation that now requires employers to provide harassment training by October 1, 2019 and on an annual basis thereafter.”

How come the “A show” trainers in the horse world think they are above this, or that this type of training or the enforcement offered by Safe Sport is an impediment to business? And how come their followers and supporters think the world is coming to an end because of Safe Sport?

Do you really think the horse industry gets a pass on behaving like a “real business” in the “real world”?

Those whining about how there will be no more working students need to realize that the professionals that want to offer this service will make it happen legally. And if some trainers stop offering it, it’s time for people to grow up and realize that there are a lot worse things in the world than not having the opportunity to be a working student.

Are people really so shallow and selfish that they are willing to put minors at risk in order to pursue a working student stint that might win them a ribbon that means nothing in the grand scheme of things? Apparently, in the horse world, the answer is yes.

I realize that this single-mindedness towards winning (and “invaluable experiences”) happens in many sports, but I have very little patience for elite sports and the difficulties faced by those involved in them. Didn’t get to go to a horse show? Yeah, not the end of the world. Being sexually assaulted as a minor or adult? Yes, that’s something to be concerned about.