What are your general thoughts on rocker toe shoes?
Everyone in this area swears but them, and thinks they should be in ever horse it seems like. I, however, am not a huge fan and do not think they are right for my PRE. He seems to trip more now than ever, but the overall trim could just not work for him on tip of the rocker style shoe.
What are the exact benefits you’ve actually seen? Do your horses wear this type of shoe?
Just general opinions and discussion really. I just don’t think they are the best thing since sliced bread like others in this area do.
Rocker toe or rolled toe? A rocker toe shoe is not flat on the hoof side and has a “rocker” that is set into the hoof capsule. A rolled toe shoe is flat on the hoof side and has a breakover that is set further back under the toe than normal and generally has a smooth slope to the toe.
I’ve never even seen a rocker. I’ve seen lots of rolled toes.
“However, any scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of hastening breakover through these types of shoes is lacking. Willemen et al. (1996) and Clayton et al. 1990, and Eliashar et al. (2002) found no effects on any of the kinetic or kinematic variables when measured in comparable studies. These researchers concluded that there were no objective reasons to use rocker- or rolled-toed shoes in sound horses.”
I do feel that a rolled toe can be helpful in removing leverage from the hoof capsule and other structures. So, helpful in “bringing the toe back”. I also feel that there is a detriment to the design of most rolled toes in that they are slippery and contribute to “toe slip” when used on the hind hooves.
There was one recent study that suggested that the benefits “seen” were more likely due to shoe weight. I would add that in some designs it could also the weight distribution of the shoe- essentially a toe weight.
I’ll use them when a hoof capsule is out of control, but otherwise I have not seen a benefit to a rolled toe on a good hoof.
I have a horse in rocker shoes of some sort. I believe they are full rocker however, not just toe. Only thing that keeps him sound - so it is a win in that department…
<sigh>. Dumbsumbdumb and it can damage the horse to willy-nilly put rocker shoes on just any horse:(
i have aluminum rocker shoes on the front of my insulin resistant horse ONLY because he is being rehabbed for founder. And they are on the horse under the guidance of my vet.
heres the link to Dr. Ric Redden’s site, that explains when it’s appropriate to put rocker shoes on a horse.
unless the people you know have those rocker shoes on their horses under the authority of a vet who is a leg/hoof specialist, they are likely doing a more harm than good over the long term ----- especially if the horses are getting used a lot and the farrier(s) haven’t been trained how to prepare the hoof for them.
OP, don’t you blindly follow these people and jump off the top of the proverbial 100’ bridge:(
Was this something you guys discussed or did you show up to find them on the horse? If discussed why were they recommended?
Dexter is currently in a morrison roller shoe with equipack on his surgical foot. If he continues to need a roller on that foot we will try it on his other one as well just so his feet match up better.
His shoe was developed at Rood and Riddle equine hosp in Kentucky as a therapeutic shoe to increase breakover and aid a horse with thin walls etc. But there are other rolled toes or farriers can just grind them.
I used to see rolled toes used a lot on pleasure walking horses to improve breakover and cause a more prancing gait. But other than producing a certain look there is no reason for a sound horse with good conformation and gait to wear them.
I can understand your PRE tripping in them because his foot is not behaving the way it used to. If they were recommended to correct something in his front end action, he will get used to them. If they are on there because it’s a fad, take them off. It changes the mechanics of his stride and can cause issues later on.
It’s actually a rocker shoe. The shoe is physically bent. I am going to request a flat shoe unless there is solid reasoning. This was the first time with this farrier/the first time being shod here (not in Spain). People just think it helps the movement and helps the foot roll. What helps one horse doesn’t help another.
The vet did ask if he tripped a lot in that shoe and also requested to try to get him into a larger shoe.
He dishes slightly, but nothing crazy. So there is nothing needed in corrections to the foot or gait.
That’s the strangest thing. I’ve never seen random use of a banana rocker. It certainly won’t help a dished foot. Omg. I’d go ballistic on a farrier that randomly selected such a specialized shoe without my consent. If rocking was appropriate for a sound horse, nature would have made the feet that way.
The foot isn’t dished, he dishes slightly in his gait.
But yeah, it’s not just this farrier. It is literally a widespread trend in this area it seems. So many horses are shod this way. Or in a rolled toe style. I just want a nicely trimmed and shod flat foot. Keep it simple for now. First, I will give this farrier a chance and speak with him. I swear people here just think I’m the weird American with dumb horse care ideas sometimes :winkgrin:
I see people grab on to trends here too. I prefer my horses unshod and did long before barefoot trimming became a thing but I don’t appreciate people telling me I’m killing my horse because he’s in shoes right now either. Lol. It actually surprises me how much difference there is in what we think is best from one region to another and even one discipline to another here in the US. I think that just proves how adaptable horses really are.
While I agree with the rest of your post, this part is sort of iffy Random selection, sure, that’s an issue. But owner’s consent really isn’t a thing, BUT, it does need to come with an explanation, if the owner asks, as to why such a different shoe is used. If they can’t give one, then keep questioning things, or just say “regular shoes have been working fine, let’s stick with that.”
In other words, I don’t want people thinking farriers have to get owners’ consent for using a different shoe. I DO think the owner has the right and even obligation to ask why there’s such a different shoe being used, and the farrier owes it to the owner to provide an understandable reason.
I’m just different about my horses’ shoeing. We’ve established in other threads that I will basically move mountains, or drive across them at least, to attend shoeing sessions. I’m just really involved in the process and if I own it, it is very much my decision what to put on its feet or not to put on its feet. Now please don’t misunderstand, I very much value the opinions of my farriers, one of which is also Dexter’s surgeon. He is a CFJ as well as an orthopedic surgeon. With therapeutic shoeing it’s a little different. We all brain storm and a vet and farrier come out, look at recent X-rays, walk him etc but when it’s done they have to rely heavily on my observations for the day to day. It’s a great team effort here right now.
But on the flip side of that, if I came home and found One of my horses padded up like a performance walker or in egg hearts all the way around or clogs or something that had not been mentioned to or discussed with me prior, it would be his last shoeing job for me. If I’m paying the bill, I’ll know what and why before it happens. My farriers have always been comfortable with that and that is pretty much the status quo in my area. I can’t think of a single farrier that would just change up shoeing as drastically as banana rockers without a word to the owner of the horse. That’s like asking jiffy lube for an oil change and I come back to find my car painted pepto bismol pink. Lol
Maybe its a regional thing but if it happened with any degree of regularity in my area there would be a lot of unemployed farriers. It’s just not how we do things round here.
Unless you specifically have an arrangement with your farrier where they do whatever they want and changes get communicated at the end of the day or later in the week when things are slower for the farrier, that’s insane. And even then, the farrier ought to be reaching out to the owner, not waiting to see if the owner is going to ask about what’s going on.
It’s like a vet showing up for routine shots and also giving hock injections, and then waiting to see if the owner is going to bother asking why.
Among other things, changing the shoe suggests a problem (or improvement) in the horse’s way of going that needs to be addressed. The owner needs to know about that, because hoof issues are rarely isolated and it may also mean an adjustment in horse’s overall management. The owner needs to be on board with all of that.
Even in a fully managed barn, the barn owner/trainer would be standing in for the owner and would be informed about what was going on and why the program was being changed.
Anything else on the part of the farrier shoes a complete lack of respect/regard for the owner and the horse’s entire health/wellbeing. It’s mind boggling.
@Second Star To The Right and @Halt Near X I think you are misunderstanding what I’m saying.
If a farrier says “Dobbin needs a this different shoe because of X, Y, and Z, do you consent?” and you say “No” without either understanding xyz or understanding the purpose of the shoe, does your lack of consent therefore mean the farrier should not use that shoe? Ever? Many farriers will end up firing clients who are keeping them from doing right by their horse, because the farrier will end up getting the blame for things going wrong, or not being fixed.
When do most owners know enough about their horse’s feet, let alone the function of the various shoes, in order to give consent to using a different shoe?
How many owners are present at farrier visits, and does the farrier REALLY need the owner’s consent to use an aluminum shoe this time instead of steel if he’s got a valid reason? Does he REALLY need consent to use a shoe that’s got more sole relief? Is if the farrier’s job in those examples to try to get hold of the owner in the time before the next visit to see if it’s ok to use a bit of a different shoe?
That’s not at all the same thing as suddenly putting some Stewart clog on a horse who is sound.
That’s also not at all the same as using a different shoe that’s going to add $50 to the cost, no matter how valid the reason. Nobody should be surprised by that.
In a word yes. He needs my consent. Whether I am knowledgeable about the process or not. A BO/manager needs my consent to add or change a supplement. The vet needs my consent to treat my horse, my friends need my consent to ride my horse and my neighbor needs my consent to touch my horse. We’re not talking about a horse that was found laminitic in a pasture and needed emergency treatment.
Firstly, (and I think we agree on this)banana rockers are a very specific and expensive shoe and in my area it costs quite a bit more to have them put on. If you’re going to turn a $40 trim into a $300 shoeing job you better call me or you won’t get paid.
Number two, I get that some people don’t keep up with latest in hoof care, I’m not one of those. It’s been well established that I am present or my DH or daughter and I can promise you if a change is recommended and I’m not there they call me. But if people are just supposed to let the farrier do things Willy Nilly, they will never learn.
ONE time I had a horse at a training barn and a trainer brow beat my daughter into a shoeing job that I had already said NO to that left my horse stepping all over herself to the point her heals were bleeding. I showed up with a trailer the next day told him he could keep the rest of the month’s board, loaded her up and left. Sadly my daughter worked there and had to find a new job. (I’m not kidding about how serious I am about this)
Three, not all farriers are good. I just fired a farrier who insisted that my laminitic horse be shod in a heal caulk with zero frog support. "Oh no no no he needs his heal elevated ". Oh no no no you need to leave now while you can. Can you imagine the damage that could have been done if it was a couple days before I saw the horse?
The OP doesn’t know this farrier and as much as said the rockers are envogue in that area.
JB you have so much knowledge and I always appreciate reading your posts and often learn from them but I can’t agree that anyone has the right to provide any type of treatment or make any changes to the any part of my horses’ care without discussing it with me first. Maybe it’s a regional thing but up here it doesn’t go over well.
I’m not talking about no consent for anything. Clearly there are treatments and changes you just don’t do without permission, whether you’re a vet, farrier, trainer, etc.
If we go down the slope of consent is needed for any changes, then we don’t get things done. Does the farrier really need the owner’s consent to change how he’s trimming the feet if he’s seeing things that require it? That would mean all farrier’s who take on horses with hoof pathologies from being poorly trimmed before have to ask the owner’s permission to change how that horse has been trimmed.
JB, it could be broken down to the absolute most minute details and perhaps hamper treatment. But my original statement was in regards to the very dramatic change in shoeing of putting banana rockers on a horse to which you replied the farrier didn’t need my consent.
All of my horses are barefoot except Dex. As farriers trim to balance the foot they are looking at its possible no trim is exactly the same everytime. That is vastly different from what the OP was talking about.
Conversly, if a trim needs to be changed drastically it’s because my horse has changed drastically for some reason and yes it would be in the best interest of the farrier to notify me if I weren’t there, which won’t happen, so let’s say to explain to me while I am standing there.
Comparing individual hoof trims to rockers is apples to oranges. Let’s suffice it to say my farriers require my consent. If someone else holds a different view they are entitled to it. We can agree to disagree and it won’t change the path of the eclipse.
Yes, it means exactly that. And yes, if the farrier cannot explain what is going on and why they want to use the shoe in a way the client understands and agrees to, and the farrier feels it is that detrimental, they can/should fire the client.
In reality, most people (including me) will establish some sort of trust level with their farrier so that the farrier doesn’t have to call before every rasp or shoeing change they make. They’ll follow up after the fact or whenever makes sense given the relationship they established.
But that’s a trust level that needs to be established and a relationship that needs to be defined between the farrier and the client. It’s not something the farrier can just assume and run with, and no horse owner should assume that the default position is that they are too uneducated to be informed or asked consent about any aspect of their horse’s care.
They can give as broad a latitude to their service providers as they want to, but the owner has to give it. The service providers don’t get to just take it.
Random selection, sure, that’s an issue. But owner’s consent really isn’t a thing, BUT, it does need to come with an explanation, if the owner asks, as to why such a different shoe is used. If they can’t give one, then keep questioning things, or just say “regular shoes have been working fine, let’s stick with that.”