Rotspon x pony

[Pohney]

Hi all,

I’ve been lurking and done some searching, but I wanted to get any input if anyone was familiar with a Rotspon x [welsh crossbred] pony mare cross? I am considering light-built stallions for a large hunter pony mare. She has previously been bred and I’m delighted with her foal, who should [hopefully] finish top-of-the-line large. However, I’m looking to breed for just above pony size this go 'round. I’m not looking for big and it doesn’t need to end up the most marketable size, as this would be breeding for a keeper. Rotspon seems to consistently improve the areas that I feel are my mare’s weaknesses, and he offers some similar strengths that will be an excellent compliment. However, I’ve heard - primarily through the COTH forums - that the size he throws is highly variable. However, I’m wondering if anyone has any experience with this type of cross / size & build of foals and considerations for breeding down in mare size?

[VirginiaBred]

He’s 16.2. That’s mighty large even for a large pony mare.

[Pohney]

That was some of the input I was hoping for. I’ve heard mixed opinions on that - vet doesn’t think it’d be an issue, and I’ve certainly seen examples of similar size discrepant crosses (for example - Encredible by Escapade and out of a large pony mare) - but I also know there are some very wise breeders out there who advise against it. I’m not the world’s most experienced breeder, so I seek out other’s opinions - I’ve worked on breeding farms and this would not be my first foal, but I don’t have the wealth of knowledge and experience as some on here.

[clint]

Have you considered Ridley? He is a Rotspon stallion out of a Weltmeyer bred mare who is 15 hh. I know the studies say you can breed a large stallion to a small mare and all will be well, but when it comes to breeding one of my mares, I’m not sure I would do it.

[Didi]

I think one of the most important things to consider is that you can get some really weird proportions doing that. For example, you could get a large body on short legs or vice versa, and so on. IMO, I wouldn’t breed a vastly larger horse to my pony mare.

[Blume_Farm]

How big is your mare? What do you want to do with the offspring? Dressage? hunters?

My riding mare is by Rotspon and although she is not too tall (16.2h) she is very big bodied. I have seen huge variation in Rotspon offspring up to 17+h, but all were quite large bodied (ie; not refined, light body type). Although I love Rotspon, I am not sure he would be my stallion choice for breeding to a pony mare. A pony usually needs a longer leg, a lighter type. I think there are most likely better options.

What did you want to improve on your pony mare?

[arlosmine]

I own a pony X warmblood, my third pony/horse cross. He did not end up a frankenhorse, but there is that possibility (I also owned one of those, who was my best school horse).

If I were breeding myself, I’d stay with a safer cross from the standpoint of predictability. Since I bought mine already on the ground, I felt safe that his proportions were good, but I myself would probably not chanced the cross for a potential keeper.

There are some very nice GRP stallions who,are at the top of their size limit and who are known to throw size. They are bred to small mares to produce a predictable large pony. One of those would be less likely to make a weirdly tall offspring, or a frankenhorse.

A Lighter bodied stallion, smaller who throws those qualities would be how I’d go. FWIW, I’ve seen very large size differences on Rotspon offspring. He seems to throw across the board in terms of size, with some huge and some small.

[clint]

One of the things that always gives me pause about breeding to Rotspon is that he has no consistency at all in the type and conformation he throws, and this is according to the evaluation of his offspring published in the Jahrbuch Hengst. He has negative figures for hind legs and correctness, among others. His good scores come from movement. With no consistency even when bred to mares of similar type and size, I would worry about breeding to a pony for the reasons mentioned above.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=clint;8154277]
Have you considered Ridley? He is a Rotspon stallion out of a Weltmeyer bred mare who is 15 hh. I know the studies say you can breed a large stallion to a small mare and all will be well, but when it comes to breeding one of my mares, I’m not sure I would do it.[/QUOTE]

Ridley is by Rotspon out of the Walt Disney mare Wiccan. Rotspon is known to throw small and this mare was also known to throw small. If I wanted to produce a pony from a Welsh mare, I would go to Ridley rather than Rotspon.

The owner of Ridley, Chris Rush, is terrific. I think she has crossed Ridley with pony mares with some success. You should contact her.

[ahf]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8154449]
Ridley is by Rotspon out of the Walt Disney mare Wiccan. Rotspon is known to throw small and this mare was also known to throw small. If I wanted to produce a pony from a Welsh mare, I would go to Ridley rather than Rotspon.

The owner of Ridley, Chris Rush, is terrific. I think she has crossed Ridley with pony mares with some success. You should contact her.[/QUOTE]

I am a third (or fourth) vote for Ridley. I think he has pretty much produced as hoped when bred to pony mares. I think that consistency comes from Wiccan, who was pretty much incapable of throwing any kind of height. But she was, in a word, exquisite.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=clint;8154396]
One of the things that always gives me pause about breeding to Rotspon is that he has no consistency at all in the type and conformation he throws, and this is according to the evaluation of his offspring published in the Jahrbuch Hengst. He has negative figures for hind legs and correctness, among others. His good scores come from movement. With no consistency even when bred to mares of similar type and size, I would worry about breeding to a pony for the reasons mentioned above.[/QUOTE]

^^^^This.

One of the reasons I’ve never used Rotspon (despite loving the R line) is that he is so inconsistent.

I know from looking at the info from Germany he has thrown some very nice horses, but the 3 foals I’ve seen here in America were not impressive at all.

Not to mention they were all very short – most didn’t break 16 hh, although their dams were all much taller.

But I agree with what others have said: there are much more reliable stallions to choose from that will bring the same qualities to the table as Rotspon but more consistently.

And that would include height.

[Pohney]

Hi all -

I am really appreciative of all the feedback. I had looked at and briefly considered Ridley, but I kind of wanted to see what I could potentially explore in terms of taller stallions. I’ve seen him alternately listed as 14.3 and 15.0 hands, and I’m hoping there might be a way for her to have a baby with the potential to break the 15.0 hand barrier. I’m interested in using the horse as my own personal hunter or jumper - I’m aware that this (low 15-hands) is not a desirable size for the hunter market.

Her first foal is likely to finish top-of-the-line large, sired by a 14.3 hand stallion. I haven’t personally seen any of the franken- or committee honies referenced here. Is there any thought to whether that is more of a risk with this direction of a cross (shorter mare to taller stallion)? I know breeders who regularly breed small & medium ponies to tall mares without running into that result.

It sounds like I need to go back to the drawing board and look for a lighter, more modern built stallion - perhaps in the 15.2-15.3 hand range? Does that seem more reasonable? I’m looking to improve this mare’s neck - she’s a touch short and ties in a touch low. She’s also a touch straight through the stifle, so hearing comments about the more mixed results [than I’d seen] of Rotspon for producing strong hind ends makes me wary.

[arlosmine]

Have you considered Top Cat? He’s a large. British Riding Pony and quite refined. Stands in Canada.

Or that fabulous chestnut Dutch pony on the east coast…darn it, I cant remember his name right now.

[stoicfish]

Putting aside the discussion if breeding a pony mare to a Wb stallion is a good idea (you can look up that discussion, it has papers cited and many opinions), I would like to point out that the size of the sire, even in cattle that do not have a mechanism to control the size of the calf like a mare has, is not as important as the size of the newborns. In other words you can have a huge bull that throws a smaller calf and vice versa. And the shape is always as important as the size.

So if you found a stallion that is more refined and 16h, it could be as easy on your mare as a stallion that is 15h but is very stocky and has stocky foals.

[Pohney]

Empire’s Power? If so, her first baby is sired by him.

The problem is - I am seeking something where there is a good chance her baby will end up in the horse heights, ideally 15h or better.

[VirginiaBred]

There is HUGE market for a small TB stallion (ideally 15 hands) but finding one is like looking for a needle in a hay stack.

[Pohney]

I was gathering that! I’ve done a lot of looking over the past 1-2 years, and finally thought I may be getting some decent ideas… I’ll definitely touch base with Ridley’s owner, but if anyone knows any small horse sporthorse type stallions (dressage or hunter) - let me know!

[candico]

Pablo might be a consideration. Have seen a few honys by him, aside from my own. Nice hunter types usually with enough scope for jumpers. My biggest problem conformationally with mine are lack of withers making saddle fit tricky. She has a refined look, without sacrificing circumference of leg and has excellent feet.