[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6587389]
Dlee. glad the book has been such a help. I keep referring back to it, too.
I’m now very excited because I’m headed to the post office to get my new ‘7 Clinics with Buck Brannaman’ dvds. Hooray!
.[/QUOTE]
I have been watching (and rewatching) mine… fantastic!. :yes:
It’s almost like he snaps for some reason and says “f–k this s–t!” I know horses are unpredictable animals, but he seems more so this way. And it’s driving me absolutely bonkers to not be able to figure him out and thereby killing my confidence.
I’m going to say that this horse is probably highly motivated and very sensitive. And also, that he has probably had a lot of training in what I like to call, the “Sucks, or Sucks More School of Horsemanship”. In these interactions, the horse is given a ‘choice’ between something he doesn’t want to do (pressure on the horse), or something he REALLY doesn’t want to do (very high pressure on the horse). Horses in this situation WILL choose the less-pressure option, but will NOT be internally happy about it. After being presented with these ‘choices’ often enough, some horses will indeed snap and tell you where to stuff it. Unfortunately, a LOT of self proclaimed ‘natural horsemanship’ people are using Ray Hunt or Tom Dorrance’s ‘techniques’ to put a horse in this situation, and that is NOT how Tom, Ray, Buck, or the above referenced clinicians really use their techniques with a horse.
For example, if a horse is in a round pen with you, and is moving/running around, he ALREADY has pressure on him and doesn’t want to stand with you. You can lightly direct where he goes, and wait for his attention to be movable toward you, but if you drive the horse around this way and that (make him move faster, make him turn back and forth, etc), you are adding MORE pressure. This is where people make the mistake of thinking they are 'Making the wrong thing difficult, and the right thing easy." The ‘wrong’ thing is ALREADY difficult- he’s already uncomfortable and moving his feet. You have to show the horse that the right thing (coming to you) eases his own worries and pressure. As Bill Dorrance says (and in complete agreement with Ray Hunt’s expression), you don’t want ANY part of making things difficult for the horse!
And I think your horse has been trained by having things made difficult for him so he ‘freely chooses’ something he doesn’t like, but doesn’t hate as much as what he has been made to do in its stead.
Some other horses, faced with Sucks vs Sucks More, will chose Sucks, and realize that their (compelled under duress) choice isn’t really all that bad, and go on afterwards just fine. But some horses really deeply resent the ‘training process’ that compels them to do something they didn’t want to do. When he’s being lazy, he’s probably just mentally putting up with what is going on, and since he’s not mentally connected and happy about what is going on, he will at some point tell you where to put it. The unpredictability, and the lazy, will both go away when he feels that he is connected and that he is truly being given the respect he needs. (Not to be confused with getting away with whatever!) Firm is respect. (Aggression in an attempt to be dominant is not respect.)
This is one of the most important concepts to understand about the whole ‘natural horsemanship’ thing- and so many NH types don’t get it at all. I know someone who went to Ray Hunt clinics twice a year for 12 years and never got it, and some people who spent even more time with Ray and Tom (and Bill ) who are successful monetarily as horse gurus, but also never got it-they can get a lot of horses to do a lot of things by using the techniques to get a horse to choose between Sucks and Sucks MOre, but they can’t see that is what they are doing. It is NOT an easy concept to understand, but it is essential for a horse like yours, and it sounds to me like you are looking for it.
I also know some people from the english/dressage/eventing etc side of things, that have figured this out for themselves, and don’t use “NH” on their horses (and have disdain for it, having seen people use it in the Sucks, Sucks More context but not ever as Tom and Ray intended).
Give this a read:
http://www.harrywhitney.com/sg_userfiles/Deconstruction.pdf
Tom Moates wrote it, and I would highly recommend Tom’s three books about Tom’s understanding and learning of Harry Whitney’s teachings- A HOrse’s Thought, Between the Reins, and Further Along the Trail.
Send Tom an email, he may very well know someone in your neck of the woods who can help you.
Looks like Buck was not in the Northeast this year- which means he probably will be, next year. Watch his website REALLY closely around Thanksgiving, and the day the schedule gets posted, get on the phone/computer if you want to get into a clinic somewhere within a few hours of your area. If you can’t get into a clinic, at least go watch, and DO ask the organizers who in your area can help you. There is probably more than one person who can, and the good ones don’t seem to be the best self-promoters in the world. So you sometimes have to find them by going to a Buck clinic.
I have seen the first half of the first of the 7 Buck DVDs.
I watched closely at the front end of the horses, and they do have their nose tipped toward the person moving their HQ, but their front legs move slightly forward and AWAY from the person as the HQ move around the front.
And Buck demonstrated the person moving away from a horse’s front end, as the horse moved his FQ toward the person even as the HQ were crossing over- and boy, did that look JUST like how I did it for two years! (Not quite right…)
Oh, and by the way, I think this horse is clearly communicating to you (with his confidence-killing, unpredictability), that he is unhappy with the training methods he is acquainted with, and has not elected you as the leader he can have confidence in, or someone he is willing to fill in for when you don’t know how to help him.
Lucky you! If you can find help, and get the relationship with this horse right, you will learn some amazing, beautiful things about the horse, your own relationships, your own life.
It won’t be easy. At all.
And it will involve giving over the whole ego thing, if that’s what you need to do. (Some people don’t, but I sure did. First thing at my first Buck clinic, but when I was able to give that over, I could be present and learn a lot better.)
I bought a completely inappropriate horse to be a using, ranch horse, and I was in way over my head- I knew I was going to get hurt if I didn’t get help. And again, I honestly could have had this horse at a ‘facility’, ridden him 5 times a week, taken a couple of good clinics and an occasional lesson, and made the same horse into a typical Training Level event horse.
It’s taken me a couple of years, but boy do I have a LOT more skills and abilities than I did if I had bought a nice, broke ranch horse. (Except I still am a sorry roper. If I had bought that nice ranch horse, I might be pretty capable by now!)
You could go get a different horse, like that stallion you got along with so well. But if you can figure out your current horse, that will be a priceless gift.
I can’t find any “show and tell” for the stall exercises, but here’s some of the other exercises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNELls_v8hY (Richard Shrake’s Twelve Steps as taught to me by someone – not the lady in the video – who went through his programs)
Well…I’ll start by saying that the horse looks OK with what is going on, and happy with his person. That’s always a plus. This isn’t some hot mess deserving of a roast. This is a pretty happy horse, there is a pleasant feeling to watching the handler and horse interact. There is obviously a good relationship there!
The horse is also moving his legs properly when asked to move the HQ.
He is, though, kept ‘straight’ while moving the hind across. You can see that he seems to want to tip his nose in, and bend his ribcage- he doesn’t have a lot of braces or resistance. But the handler keeps her arm in his face on the halter, probably trying to keep his body straight by keeping his nose over and away. You want a bend through the ribs, and in the neck.
What I don’t agree with is how close in the handler is, to the horse as she’s asking him to move. If you read some of Bill Dorrance’s True Horsemanship Through Feel book, you’ll hear him talk about how when leading the horse a lot of people are right in the horse’s way. This is a nice example of that. This horse is OK with how he’s being handled, but a lot of horses get frustrated when handled this way (hand right on the leadline snap under the chin) because the horse feels crowded, the person is in the horse’s space and the horse often feels like he can’t move without stepping on the person. Also, when the horse knows what you are trying to do, you can simply show/gesture, rather than pushing and pulling, which tends to make a horse heavier. The use of a chain shank hints that sometimes the horse gets ‘heavy’ by waiting to be physically pushed, and needs to be backed off. This is not a feel, this is pushing/pulling/placing the horse.
At about the 2 minute marker, she asks the horse to move FQ. The horse is moving the front, without shifting weight back- he’s shifting forward and almost sort of walking forward as he moves the FQ- he’s not pulling backwards with his hocks/rear legs. So, on this move, he’s not properly separating FQ from HQ.
I think it’s safe to say that’s a definite, some of which I’ve been accomplice to. He’s been manhandled into compliance before and it’s what I’ve been told to do to keep him in check. It leaves me feeling like I have to have some sort of “weapon” with me at all times whenever I interact with him – I just can’t “be” my normal self. That really does not feel right in any way, shape or form. I’ve been told I’m too passive…but then I watch an 8 yr old lead that stallion I rode – little enough that he could topple her over by just pushing her with his nose – and that makes absolutely no sense either since that little girl is so shy it took her several weeks to reply with more than a smile to my hellos whenever I saw her in the barn!!
Some other horses, faced with Sucks vs Sucks More, will chose Sucks, and realize that their (compelled under duress) choice isn’t really all that bad, and go on afterwards just fine.
I think this is the reasoning why I was told to “make him do xyz and tear his head off if he doesn’t.” Or set him up to make a mistake and rip his head off if he falls into the trap. “Damned if I do, damned if I don’t, so I’ll just check out” is exactly what he’s become. Whenever he goes “somewhere else” that’s when we get into trouble.
Your point about resentment and Dorrance’s/Hunt’s phrase of expression makes a perfect example. His head gets held higher, his lips are tight, domed eyebrows, body stiff, etc. He’s a guitar string. And like Buck’s comment in the video you posted a bit back, the spring keeps getting coiled tighter and tighter and the unpredictability must be his way of releasing it.
Give this a read:
http://www.harrywhitney.com/sg_userfiles/Deconstruction.pdf
I found this one extremely thought provoking too:
http://www.harrywhitney.com/sg_userfiles/Directing_the_Dance.pdf
My horse is definitely checking out mentally and is only there in body, not mind.
Lucky you! If you can find help, and get the relationship with this horse right, you will learn some amazing, beautiful things about the horse, your own relationships, your own life.
It won’t be easy. At all.
And it will involve giving over the whole ego thing, if that’s what you need to do. (Some people don’t, but I sure did. First thing at my first Buck clinic, but when I was able to give that over, I could be present and learn a lot better.)
Hard to have an ego when the only thing I can say with complete confidence about this particular situation is “I have no clue whatsoever.” 
I don’t want a rainbow-farting, sparkling horse with Fabio hair – I just want one I can trust not to knock my block off and one who trusts me not to get him into harms way. If he doesn’t mind getting scrubbed on so I can get my dose of horse aromatherapy, all the better.
What I don’t agree with is how close in the handler is, to the horse as she’s asking him to move. If you read some of Bill Dorrance’s True Horsemanship Through Feel book, you’ll hear him talk about how when leading the horse a lot of people are right in the horse’s way.
And that’s probably how I got myself into trouble with my horse not comfortable with being lead from any distance away. All my interactions when leading have been the way in the video – you do that for fitting and show classes, it’s in the CHA manual as the “proper way to lead”…fairly certain that also applies to Pony Club, etc. It seems like you have more “control” when you’re between ear and withers, but there’s no real choice on the horse’s part with what kind of float he wants to keep.
I ordered two of Moates’ books. Harry Whitney has already intrigued me from reading the other articles in the same directory as the one you linked so if Moates delves into those techniques at greater depth, I’m hoping it’ll give me some insight.
Thank you for the tip about Buck’s website. I’ll definitely start looking for the schedule to see if there’s going to be anything nearby. I’ll also try to screw up the courage to follow your suggestion on emailing Tom Moates to see if he knows anyone around my area, and also to keep checking back in on those other folks you linked to see where they’ll be in the 2013 season.
I’m looking for a glimmer of hope that my horse and I are going to make it together. He is, for the most part, a very gentle guy – never pinned an ear or offered a kick while I’ve been around him so there is that.
I’m looking for a glimmer of hope that my horse and I are going to make it together.
I see your glimmer of hope myself, in your attitude and questioning of what is going on, because you are taking an analysis of training effectiveness that keys in on how the horse really feels about it. Not ‘does the horse DO it right’, but does the horse do it with a good attitude. This isn’t “All warm, fuzzy and cosmic” (as Buck says in the Buck movie), this is he most important part of seeing what is going on within your horse. The horse is the ultimate authority in regards to training methods, theories, techniques- if he feels good about what is going on, you know you are on to something right. If the most authoritative horse guru in the world tells you to do something, and your horse is troubled by it, then something isn’t right.
I think the ‘warm, fuzzy and cosmic’ comment has a lot more to do with the idea that you MUST be able to ‘get big’ or get very firm when you need to. That ‘Big’ or ‘Firm’ can be easily misconstrued, it can look like a horse just getting beat on. But there is an appropriate, NON emotional way to get firm, that pretty much involves the horse running into pressure himself. The horse finds it, like he’d find an electric fence and get a shock- you don’t pursue him and whack him one. This is not an easy concept to learn, but it’s invaluable. And it can be really, really tied into a person’s emotional landscape in a way that makes it a very difficult lesson to learn.
I also can spend hours on the Harry Whitney site. There are some great articles at the other clinicians’ websites, too.
Another good source of reading is Dr. Deb Bennett’s Q and A forum and articles about ‘Woody’ , “True Collection” and “The Ring of Muscles”.
http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/
http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base_intro/knowledge_base_intro_choicepage.html
Be warned that Dr. Deb’s ‘forum’ is nothing like this one- it is her Online Classroom and she is the Only Authority. Sometimes things get lost in translation and things go…downhill …with communication between askee and asker. But it IS Dr. Deb’s own forum, she can do with it exactly as she chooses.
I have learned a TON about what is going on biomechanically as well as mentally with what we are trying to accomplish through all of these ‘techniques’. Dr. Deb studied also with Tom and Ray, and Buck also holds her in high regard. (In an answer to one of my questions to Buck in a clinic last summer, part of Buck’s response was ‘She’s a genius’ about how a horse works.) After spending a good amount of time reading and asking questions on the forum (and being threatened to be banned), I can see much better what Buck is asking for in his exercises and so his techniques make a LOT more sense to me. (Some of it isn’t really clear to me yet, such as lateral work/half pass, but I know the answers are there when I’m ready to find them.)
I still think you’re lucky to have this horse. I also think (respectfully, no snark intended) that you are in over your head right now.
Your job is going to be more difficult than it would have been if the horse wasn’t troubled by poor handling in the first place, but there is a lot you can overcome if you can get the horse to where he WANTS to be with you.
When you find help, and learn how to get along with this horse, you’ll find something amazing that so many people don’t even know is THERE in a horse/person relationship. You’re lucky because this particular horse isn’t going to just go along and be compliant and cooperative and shut down and tolerate you when you ride or handle him. Like my OTTB, you just aren’t going to ‘make it work’ in a way that is unpleasant for the horse. There are lots of horses out there who have been ‘bred for gentle temperament’ who are basically like Labrador dogs- they’ve been bred to be really, really tolerant of whatever is crappy in life. You get a dog like a Border Collie, or a horse like an Arabian or some Thoroughbreds, and they just won’t go along with it.
There are facilities in Maine, MA, and New Jersey that I found, that sponsor some of these ‘good’ clinicians. And do look Tom Moates up, he doesn’t bite and I’m pretty sure he’d be happy to help you find someone to help you along the way.
The hind end is the motor, yes, but you can’t initiate forward motion until you change gears and give direction. The gear shift and direction come from the head/neck/shoulder area.
So — when it comes to those super sticky types I install a front end yeild (what amounts to a showmanship pivot).
When I do it this way I’m not telling the hind end to move off when starting a lung circle, I’m telling the front end to move away from me. THis results in a horse who has one side (or the other) facing me, instead of facing head-on. Then it’s a failry simple thing of telling the rib cage to “move forward”.
If they forget and turn to face me again I’ll pick up the lunge stick (a lunge whip w/the whip part cut off, makes a very flexible stick thingy) and pop them on the side of their neck in increasing tempo and force til they move the front end away again.
And since they already know the cue to move the front end away, the neck-tap-lunge-stick deal isn’t too dramatic.
I haven’t read all the replies, but my thought would be to get two lunge lines one on each side, in the round pen, and drive him round the circle. If he starts turning in keep the outside line tighter. This will teach him to do what you want, when you want. Tis can be done outside of the round pen as well… Walk behind him in a field as well, basically driving,… Then have him form a circle and keep his head whee you want it… My 2 cents.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6590716]
Another good source of reading is Dr. Deb Bennett’s Q and A forum… [/QUOTE]
I just gotta tell you, Fillabeana, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! :yes:
I think I’ve had more insight in the past couple of days poking through her forum than I ever have before. What I knew all along about my horse having a person problem instead of me having a horse problem has been solidified in my heart and head.
So now I just need to find my horse the help he needs with his person problem.
I just gotta tell you, Fillabeana, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
I think I’ve had more insight in the past couple of days poking through her forum than I ever have before. What I knew all along about my horse having a person problem instead of me having a horse problem has been solidified in my heart and head.
So now I just need to find my horse the help he needs with his person problem.
V.T., you made me cry.
I read and post here and there on COTH, there are a lot of people who could really USE the help that is out there. I myself only have about half a clue (if that), but the legacy of Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorrance and Ray Hunt is out there, going strong, and there are plenty of capable horsemen out there to share it. (Buck being the best known.)
But…so many people don’t know that kind of horse/human relationship is out there. Exposure to ‘Big Time’ clinicians on TV and DVD and special clubs is huge- there are marketing machines out there promoting “Almost” Tom and Ray’s wisdom, and it is obvious from the train-wreck threads on COTH that those Big Time clinicians don’t have the ‘best’ answers from the point of view of quite a lot of horses.
And another But…there are plenty of people who are looking to Pay for the Right Answer, rather than look within themselves. A person has to get past this expectation to really get deep into Tom and Ray’s legacy, and it can be pretty hard.
So, in a nutshell, there are lots of folks who are here asking for a technique, but they aren’t asking for help in this deeper way. That’s ok. I just hope there are some people like you, whom I can help to point in the right direction ( because I probably can’t help a whole lot, directly) if they DO want this kind of help.
There are people who have been riding for years, with the best of the ‘real deal’ going out there, who have a LOT of great techniques down but not the most important one- the part where you take responsibility for your own learning, a humility and an ability to ask questions and learn for yourself.
At the last Buck clinic I went to, Buck asked the 25 or so riders to walk along on a loose rein.
Then he asked again.
Then, he told all (riders and spectators), that there were three riders who were NOT on a loose rein. And asked all riders to trot (and work hard). And then walk. And then trot. And then Buck told the audience, something like ‘I keep this up long enough, and these riders will start to ask themselves if they are possibly one of the riders not on a loose rein’.
He did this rather than saying, “John, Mary, Joe, I need a LOOSE rein, you still have contact”.
Telling the riders directly would have sped things along, but it would not have broken loose a self-assessment in the riders, which was way more important in the long run.
So many times, in a Buck clinic, riders go out at the end thinking, well, I know I was doing that right- Buck didn’t tell me I was doing anything wrong, but I don’t know if I learned anything except how to do a short serpentine, I already KNOW the one rein stop, the turn on the forehand, etc…
And those riders don’t get a ton from a Buck clinic, because they are waiting for someone else to correct them, get it right FOR them, puppet them along. Once you begin asking deeper questions about yourself, you get so busy in a Buck clinic that you feel like you’re NEVER going to get it all.
You’ll see riders excited about riding in a Buck clinic, along with the ‘lowest’ level participants, who are hugely talented clinicians themselves. They are getting a lot out of the clinic, and not because they already know how to do a one rein stop!
Personally, if I never hear the phrase, “one rein stop”, again, it would be too soon.
Sorry!! But I’m glad (hope?) its in a good way instead of “pound head on desk” sort of way. :winkgrin:
And another But…there are plenty of people who are looking to Pay for the Right Answer, rather than look within themselves. A person has to get past this expectation to really get deep into Tom and Ray’s legacy, and it can be pretty hard.
The book’s at home so I can’t give a direct quote, but the paragraphs in “True Horsemanship by Feel” where Bill describes learners and different reasons why either they do want to learn or are too frightened to kind of applies towards that too. I think he described it perfectly.
At the last Buck clinic I went to, Buck asked the 25 or so riders to walk along on a loose rein… And then Buck told the audience, something like ‘I keep this up long enough, and these riders will start to ask themselves if they are possibly one of the riders not on a loose rein’.
Fascinating application and makes a world of sense to have the riders reach that conclusion themselves! I wonder how long it went on that way till the exercise needed to be stopped to move onto something else.
Well, looks like I’m in luck. There’s a Leslie Desmond clinic near to me mid-November. It’s reasonably priced for auditors so I’m going to try my best to check it out and get my feet wet.
Yes, you made me cry in a good way. I forgot to say, You are welcome.
I wonder how long it went on that way till the exercise needed to be stopped to move onto something else.
It went on until John, Mary and Joe let go and let their horses walk on a loose rein It was really only about 5 minutes, and it got quite a few folks (though certainly NOT everyone!) out of their own little world where they were always doing things exactly as Buck wanted them to.
I’m pretty sure that it is Leslie Desmond describing the different attitudes toward learning in the intro to True Horsemanship Through Feel book, and not Bill Dorrance.
I also like to read Bryan Neubert’s account of finally getting help from Ray Hunt with a difficult horse. Ray pretty much wouldn’t interfere until Bryan Neubert was at the end of his rope, because Ray knew that he had already GIVEN his advice, but it wasn’t getting through:
http://www.bryanneubert.com/HTML/stories.htm
I keyed in on Bryan Neubert, saying ,“How many times had I heard Ray explain the importance of settling for the slightest try. I thought I had been doing that but I was not recognizing and rewarding his smallest efforts.” (bolding mine)
Settling for the smallest try, was the ‘help’ or the ‘answer’ Bryan Neubert needed. But he could already parrot that phrase back to anyone, still missing the fact that he was indeed NOT recognizing the smallest try- as his broncy horse attested.
In my view, Bryan Neubert’s story reflects how a great clinician can get YOU thinking, and taking responsibility for thinking, about the horse and how to apply any appropriate techniques. After he really WAS ready for Ray’s help, he was able to see just how important this ‘smallest try’ really was, and that followed him well beyond that particular horse.
A simply good clinician will help you apply the technique, substitute HIS timing for yours, and get the ‘right technique’ working. And then you often can’t get things going right at home. This applies, by the way, to about any good clinician- dressage, jumpers, reining, ‘natural horsemanship’, etc. People get sort of addicted to having their trainer ‘puppet’ them into the right moves, and having things work for them and their horse. But it builds a dependency on the trainer. (Some trainers view this as job security.) Sometimes, it IS the right thing to do, it shows the person that something really DOES work with their particular horse, and that they need to work to find the right timing. But a lot of times, it is just paying someone else to have your horse perform, by proxy.
The ironic part of all of this, is that we can ride away from a ‘good’ clinic thinking, WOW, I learned a lot! And ride away from a great clinician, where we were not ready to face some things about ourselves, thinking, “I didn’t really learn anything, that was a waste of time”.
Myself, I want to thank Buck next time I see him (might be a couple of years) for taking my horse at the start of my first clinic. That sure helped my horse, (and helped ME see that this approach was, according to my horse, what he really needed). But now I see the big benefit, is that it got me immediately into a good frame of mind to really learn and pay attention- to give over the ego and the self-consciousness. At my second clinic two years later, I felt none of the stage fright or worries about what everyone else thought (except of course for Buck), and was really able to participate and pay attention in a deeper way.
Thank you Fillabeana, for the time you took writing such inspirational posts.
You’re welcome, re-runs. I am so appreciative that someone out there is inspired! I want to ‘pay it forward’, and give back what others have given to me, if anyone out there sincerely wants this kind of help.
(and I really need to get back to my video editing project, I’m a fabulous procrastinator!!)
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