Round Penning

[VaqueroToro]

So, I have a rather sticky foot gelding who has never wanted to round pen or lunge – he thinks its a total waste of time – whereas the few times we have been successful at it, he’s definitely more relaxed and in tune (as its supposed to do).

I don’t just run him around – I’m looking for him to play off my voice, consistent gait changes (and extensions/collections within the gait), and the ability to change directions readily, plus nice stops/starts. Well that’s the desire anyway.

My particular problem with him is overcoming his magnetic facing abilities – he will face up and I cannot send him off again. He will continue to yield his hind quarters and face while I’m trying to get at his hip to drive him off again. He will back up; I can literally drive him backwards around the round pen. This can be from the middle of the round pen or right next to him. I have made it incredibly difficult for him to stand there (used the lunge whip on him with increasing strength/speed) but he. just. will. not. move. If he does move, it’s to come towards me which I block by the flagging the other hand and he’ll move back where he was but will not take off again. It’s like he either doesn’t know it’s an option, or knows its an option but would rather get whipped than take it.

So what am I doing to confuse him and/or play into his disrespect? What can I do to get him to quit looking at me and go away? Do I bump his neck with the shaft portion of the lunge whip to get him moving away before driving the hip?

Has anyone ever used two whips to get a horse going (ie one to direct the head and the other to drive the hip)?

[Bluey]

Hard to say without a video and if you have one, you can see by yourself where you are confusing him.

Does your horse longe properly, at the end of a longe line?
If so, go back to it to establish what you want where you have more control of your horse and won’t have to keep escalating and look like a crazy windmill without a tail.:lol:

On the longe line, go very slow and easy and short at first, until your horse relearns to go forward past you, before you let any line, or you will be back to a confused horse, listening to whatever misstep you seem to be falling into, that keeps him facing you.

Why do I say all this?

I have seen that same problem time and again, I would say is the main problem of roundpenning for many horses and owners, the dreaded “can’t get the horse to go!”:yes:

[threedogpack]

this might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qincEZod6mQ

[VaqueroToro]

Thanks for the reply, Bluey.

He gets the same sticky feet on the end of a lunge line. The other problem is that he REALLY wants to be with you – he won’t run you over or shove into you, he just wants to stand really close. That also might be part of the reason why I can’t send him away.

I’ve tried something along the lines of what you’re describing while he’s on a lead rope. I stand off his shoulder and direct the hand with the float from his head down a bit and out. I take the excess of the line and swing it in an up-down overhand fashion (opposite of horizontal like you would a lasso) at his hip. His reaction at this is one of three things – ignore the stimulus completely, take a step towards me with his front feet and yield the hind quarters away, or plant front feet and still yield hind quarters away.

I’ll inch back a bit so now I’m more in line with his girth line or slightly behind it and repeat the whole thing. Same three reactions. I’ve only had him step forward once and I immediately stopped the swinging and praised him.

So I inch back again. At that point, I’m out of lead rope and my lunge line is too unruly for this without being a mess all over the place – I probably need to get a longer lead that’s somewhere between typical lead line and lunge line in length.

In replaying this in my head, maybe I’m blocking him from going forward by NOT facing the direction I want him to go, ie, instead of being at an angle to his shoulder facing his back, I should be at an angle to his shoulder facing his head. He’s pretty good at fitting and showmanship and in that world, standing at an angle to the shoulder facing his back equates to stand still; the handler facing forward again = we’re moving.

Is there anything I can do when turning him loose in the pasture to reinforce the “go on, get” in a calm manner BEFORE experimenting with any of the above again? If I turn him loose away from the gate he will follow me back or if I just circle him around inside to face the gate before I unhook, he’ll keep standing there for several more minutes after I’ve walked away.

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6583886]
this might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qincEZod6mQ[/QUOTE]

Ahh use the rail to reinforce that I want forward, not a yielding of the hind. That might work. Thanks!

[Bluey]

When we used to teach our apprentices how to longe a horse, first we taught is that longing or any you do to move a horse around responding to your body language is like a dance, you have to see where the horse is and move accordingly to get him moving the way you want.

First, you teach close up, then slowly further out and keep correcting the way they apprentice moves and modeling what to do until that is second nature.

We didn’t twirl the longe line, but use a longe whip as an extension of our arm and of course, where to stand and how to move to get the horse moving forward, without fireworks, close enough to be effective, far enough to be safe if the horse gets a wild hair, although we taught that with very quiet, gentle and responsive horses, so the human learns first.

Hard to teach a horse when you don’t quite know what you are doing.

When we start a horse longing, we lead it in a small circle, before we change hands, step back standing straight and send on the still small circle, a head of us.
Most horses, even unhandled yearlings, learn in a few minutes.

Longing skills, while self standing, are part of a whole you teach a horse every time you interact with them, in the way you hold yourself and move around the horse.

If your horse just stands there, make the question about even less, just move over a bit, before asking to go on ahead and avoiding the point where the horse will move wrong, as in backing or getting it’s hindend away from you.

By the way, we didn’t “disengage” the hindend, that was considered bad, as a horse can then use it as an evasion, as it is the contrary of what you want from a horse, that is cool and collected always.
Turns on the front end were that, a clear step over in control around the front end giving to the outside leg, not a disengaging with a scooting away and “disconnect” from the front end to take the “motor” away from a horse.

Today there is more leeway in that, but some times, I wonder, seeing the problems so many get into from that.

We need to be aware of what we teach and why and when to quit or teach to quit also.

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6583937]

Hard to teach a horse when you don’t quite know what you are doing.[/QUOTE]

Agreed! And I don’t, I’m not ashamed to admit that. The answers I get when I ask the locals is “you’re obviously not hitting him hard enough.” That answer doesn’t feel like the right answer to me!

When we start a horse longing, we lead it in a small circle, before we change hands, step back standing straight and send on the still small circle, a head of us.
Most horses, even unhandled yearlings, learn in a few minutes.

Okay I think I got the picture of this in my head and will give it a shot. If I can get him to take a couple of steps past me, we can work on that.

By the way, we didn’t “disengage” the hindend, that was considered bad, as a horse can then use it as an evasion, as it is the contrary of what you want from a horse, that is cool and collected always.

I know it’s an evasion, I’m just not sure how to present it to him to say “hey, all I want is for you to take a step that way.” He came to me this way; it’s not something I created and I’m trying to get him over it. If I can’t have his feet on the ground, I’m probably not going to have his feet in the saddle.

[Fillabeana]

I’m just going on your description here, and I might have a different answer for you if I could see what was going on. But I don’t think you have ‘an evasion’ or ‘disrespect’ at all. I think you’re addressing the wrong end. If he’s facing up, he needs to move his front/shoulders away from you before you ask anything of his hind end. He’s probably been trained to face up, and is trying to do as he’s been trained.

It surprised me, at my first Buck Brannaman clinic, that when my horse was on a lead rope and I wanted the horse to go in a circle around me (as he would on a longe line), I was supposed to have the FRONT end go somewhere first. It took a while before I quit addressing the back end. What can happen when you are asking the back end, is you end up pulling (either from a really hooked on horse, or literally pulling on a rope) the front end toward you, as YOU MOVE YOUR OWN BODY AWAY FROM THE HORSE. Sorry for the YELL, but this is really important- while you think you are asking the horse to yield, your own body language is telling the horse, “See? I move right out of your way when you move your shoulders toward me!” And thus it is pretty confusing to the horse to ask him to yield to you as you are telling him that YOU yield to HIM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZt3ur52wkU

Notice at 0:31 in the video, that Buck asks the horse to go out on a circle, and he asks the shoulders to go out first. Not forward! Shoulders OUT onto the circle.

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6584449]
If he’s facing up, he needs to move his front/shoulders away from you before you ask anything of his hind end. He’s probably been trained to face up, and is trying to do as he’s been trained.[/QUOTE]

Judging by how magnetic he is, I can say I’m very certain he has been. It’s kind of freaky; when he latches on, he latches on. All I have to do is lean side to side and he’s shifting to face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZt3ur52wkU

Notice at 0:31 in the video, that Buck asks the horse to go out on a circle, and he asks the shoulders to go out first. Not forward! Shoulders OUT onto the circle.

That makes sense. My guy’s back end is extremely free, but his front end is cemented to the ground in this case. I need to show him how to unstick those front feet and follow. I can drive his eye pretty effortlessly (off side is a bit hesitant, but we’re working on it) so in general his front feet will cross over and move.

I think you and Bluey are mostly on the same page here. I’m going to try to see if he’ll take a couple of steps past me when leading him in a circle to show him he can move away.

I’m curious, did Mr. Brannaman discuss changing the eye at the clinic you went to? I have a feeling that’s going to be another hurdle to work through when thinking about things that my guy has totally flipped his lid over – a good portion of his spooks have been right after he’s passed by and turned from something that was not scary to one eye but an equivalent to a horse eater to the other. It’s a bit terrifying on an extremely athletic 7yr old.

The unfortunate bit about this whole thing is that the more I seem to understand, the more holes I find in his training, and the more completely unequipped I am to fix it.

[Wirt]

Using a round pen was never intended to become something in itself, or specialized training, as in the term “round penning”. If your horse is broke to ride, why bother with a round pen? RIDE HIM! That is what this is supposed to be about, not endless ground work for its own sake. The round is a good tool for starting an unbroke horse. It is a good skill to learn what you are doing in there. But not necessary if you can ride him, unless you are trying to impress someone with tricks. learn to do it on another horse maybe. The more ground bound your horse is, the more you need to ride out in wide open spaces. For pete’s sake get out of the round pen!

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=Wirt;6585012]
Using a round pen was never intended to become something in itself, or specialized training, as in the term “round penning”. If your horse is broke to ride, why bother with a round pen? RIDE HIM! That is what this is supposed to be about, not endless ground work for its own sake. The round is a good tool for starting an unbroke horse. It is a good skill to learn what you are doing in there. But not necessary if you can ride him, unless you are trying to impress someone with tricks. learn to do it on another horse maybe. The more ground bound your horse is, the more you need to ride out in wide open spaces. For pete’s sake get out of the round pen![/QUOTE]

I do ride him. He is also routinely hacked out on the trails by someone whose abilities I trust when I cannot exercise him myself due to schedule conflicts.

Why wouldn’t I want his mind and body limber and in a good place before I throw a leg over him!? He’s a MUCH more pleasing ride after we’ve had five or so minutes on the ground working on him giving me his feet or me seeing how little I can give a signal and get the right response.

I don’t see how getting things to flow correctly in the round pen would harm anything at all; it’s a refresher course for both of us. It isn’t my intent to make it an every day thing; I just would like to get it correct with him a few times and have it as a tool if we get off track. Getting through this blockade might loosen up the general bracey-ness he’s got in other spots too.

If he’s being a jerk or has selective hearing on the ground, he’s going to be the same in the saddle. I’d rather get us on the same page on the ground than make it a battle while I’m on his back.

[Fillabeana]

I think you and Bluey are mostly on the same page here.

Pretty much! I almost always agree with Bluey’s postings.

My guy’s back end is extremely free, but his front end is cemented to the ground in this case.

Plenty of people train a horse to ‘disengage his hind end’ by having him plant his front end and shut down the front legs. The front legs should be essentially walking around in a very small, very minutely forward circle. I don’t agree with the term ‘disengage’ because that isn’t really what is going on- it is a lateral step, and therefore takes energy away from forward, but a horse who is fluent with proper lateral movement of the hind end, is engaging his rear end to get something done. When it feels right, the energy is re-directed rather than shut down.
It sounds like your horse has been trained to plant, rather than adjust with, his front legs when you move the rear end around.
Moving the hindquarters around properly involves the horse shifting his weight forward, moving the forequarters around properly involves the horse shifting his weight back. Watch Buck’s horse again in the video. If your horse is planting the front end, or not moving it, as you ask the HQ to move around, he’s likely got his weight shifted toward his HQ.
So I would take a close look. You might have to get him walking forward in a larger-than-ideal circle with his front end, as he crosses under with his inside rear leg, before he can shift his weight forward and move properly with his front end in a small spot.

Here’s a horse being trained to ‘disengage the hindquarters’, and I must agree- she’s being taught to do ‘lateral work’ without engagement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nES2Lxj6Dtc
At about 4:00, he asks the filly to move her hind end over. Three pretty major problems going on here:
1)He asks her to move her butt over, and gets what he wants when she swings her butt over. But she NEVER takes a step with the inside hind CROSSING OVER IN FRONT OF the outside hind.
2)He asks her to back up as she does this. When she calms down some, she will simply plant the front end, and shuffle over with the hind, rather than engaging herself laterally, stepping across and over behind, and slightly forward in front.
3)He stops teaching the filly something when he gets her feet to do what he wants them to, not when the filly does right with her feet and with a calm attitude. The filly is still tight, a little bothered, a little troubled. If you listen again to Buck’s video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZt3ur52wkU
Buck talks to somebody named Melissa, about going about showing a horse what you want, until the horse does it with a quiet attitude- otherwise, you’re building scoots and ‘flees’ into the horse, ‘just makes the spring a little tighter’ as Buck states. That ‘separation of moving the front end and rear end’ involves the horse shifting his weight forwards or backwards, to move laterally- and THAT is what makes the horse’s focus improve and calm down the horse rather than get things going too fast and dusty (like Bluey’s windmill!)

Now, I don’t want to rag on this fellow training a rescue horse. He’ll get there eventually, as you can see from the videos. And he may very well be able to handle a lot more horse than I can. But if he had a little better technique, he’d get there a lot faster, and he wouldn’t have as many holes in his horses’ training. When you get trust and understanding working between you and a horse, the horse will fill in for you where you haven’t done a great job in training him. (And don’t get me started on ‘desensitizing’- yikes! No greater way to teach a horse to shut down mentally than to teach him that there isn’t anything he can do about you irritating him. Martin Black talks about this, as ‘Learned Helplessness’, the same as you get in a problem human relationship. And ‘Sensitizing’ is usually a great way to make a horse flee from you.)

Buck probably did talk about changing eyes at my first clinic in 2010. I wasn’t quite ready for the information at the time, but he covers it quite well in his groundwork book, and groundwork video.

Once you get the front/hind end properly separated, you and your horse will be able to deal with spooky things on the trail much better. You absolutely want to go through changing eyes on a long rope. But out on the trail, as soon as he sees something that you thing might spook him, don’t get any closer. Move him around, HQ/FrontQ changing direction and shifting his weight, while you are far enough away that the Horse Eating Object (HEO) is going to have his attention, but not freak him out. At this point, you’re changing eyes as well as showing the horse that he can move away, on something OTHER than his favorite bend/side. Sort of like having someone show you that you CAN swat flies away with your left, as well as your right hand, so you dont’ get upset when someone occupies your right hand while you’re trying to swat flies. After he finds out that he can be physically prepared to move away from the HEO from either eye, he’ll be much less worried. If a horse stops his feet, looking at an HEO, that is BAD news. His next move is probably going to be very athletic and evasive. You want to back him out so he’s not so close to the HEO, and demonstrate to him that he can move himself away from the HEO from any angle.

The unfortunate bit about this whole thing is that the more I seem to understand, the more holes I find in his training, and the more completely unequipped I am to fix it.

I know JUST what you mean. I took my OTTB to a Buck clinic in 2010. I could honestly have taken this horse, ridden him 5 times a week in an arena at a good facility, and made a Training Level event horse out of him. But I was in WAY, WAY over my head trying to be able to ride him out, and get things done, without pretty much usually being in a dangerous situation.
The first thing that happened in the clinic was that Buck took my horse away from me, telling me that watching was like fingernails on a chalkboard to him- I was just basically a boat anchor on the end of the lead rope, annoying the horse. I wanted to disappear.
The Buck clinic by itself wasn’t enough- that became obvious when we went home. Luckily, I got help from a fellow who Buck knows from Ray Hunt clinics, and got enough one-on-one time and Q-and-A time that I was able to get this horse to a safe, pleasant place. It took Buck about 20 minutes to get my horse to a good place, my helper about 40 minutes, and me…about 2 years.

I LOVE your attitude. Realizing that you don’t have the knowledge or ability that you need to get something to work, is the first part of acquiring that knowledge or skill. You’ll get it. It might take some time, and some help, but if you keep after it, you’ll get it. I like to say that I have about a half a clue! Keep looking, noticing, trying, and get some good help, a good mentor.

[DLee]

Totally agree with Fillabeana (I am a Buck person too), and wanted to say how much I have come to like a flag. A flag is a great tool in that even after a horse has learned not to be afraid of it, you can still use it with enough impetus to get the feet moving with almost never touching a horse with it, unlike a whip.

[Fillabeana]

Dlee, I now like a flag, too! Glad you are getting along with flags- it is not easy for everyone to learn.
I had a really, really hard time wrapping my head around how to use a flag, and of course Buck and some others who knew what was up, agreed that my horse needed a lot of flag work.
The confusing part for me was that you should use the flag to ask your horse to stand still and deal with something, and also use the flag to bring life up.
A horse has to learn to follow your intent.
If you substitute ‘legs on his sides’ for ‘flag’, most people can agree- the horse should be totally fine with your legs on his sides, just hanging or moving as you adjust your balance, and he should move off when you ask him to go with your leg.

“Even after a horse has learned not to be afraid of it”…very important.

Those who ‘desensitize’ are teaching a horse to not react to something. The horse then has to learn again to get the heck out of Dodge when you want to ‘Sensitize’ the horse to something. (Thus confirming to the horse that he should be afraid of the object you are ‘sensitizing’ to, and setting you up to have to desensitize the horse to the next thing you might harass him with- he can’t know if he’s supposed to ignore it or pay very close attention to it, unless he can follow YOUR lead about it.)

Folks spouting on about ‘desensitizing’ will tell you that you have to do it a lot, and a lot of sensitizing, and then more desensitizing, along the horse’s career. Desensitizing seems to be all about teaching the horse to shut down, and Sensitizing all about getting the horse to pay very close attention, because he’d better get the HECK outta the way (flee) if you want to poke him with something.
If you use the SAME OBJECT, like a rope, to ask the horse to notice, but be ok/quiet with, or move off when you add life to it, you can teach the horse to pay attention to your intent. A horse taught to be with you and read your intent, doesn’t need to be desensitized and sensitized and desensitized ad nauseum for its whole life.

There was a great article about ‘desensitization’ a couple of months ago in Western Horseman magazine. Clinton Anderson’s description and Joe Wolter’s description were so totally different! (And you can see two lovely photos of CA rollkuring a horse, if you’d like to see how hyperflexion is not JUST for the Competitive Dressage Horse!)

[DLee]

Fillabeana, I have definitely had to work at getting better with the flags, I started with them, gave up for a bit, and now have been back for a while and am more confident in the way to use them.
Thank you again for your book recommendation last year, True Horsemanship Through Feel, still reading it, and getting so much out of it!

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=VaqueroToro;6585144]
I do ride him. He is also routinely hacked out on the trails by someone whose abilities I trust when I cannot exercise him myself due to schedule conflicts.

Why wouldn’t I want his mind and body limber and in a good place before I throw a leg over him!? He’s a MUCH more pleasing ride after we’ve had five or so minutes on the ground working on him giving me his feet or me seeing how little I can give a signal and get the right response.

I don’t see how getting things to flow correctly in the round pen would harm anything at all; it’s a refresher course for both of us. It isn’t my intent to make it an every day thing; I just would like to get it correct with him a few times and have it as a tool if we get off track. Getting through this blockade might loosen up the general bracey-ness he’s got in other spots too.

If he’s being a jerk or has selective hearing on the ground, he’s going to be the same in the saddle. I’d rather get us on the same page on the ground than make it a battle while I’m on his back.[/QUOTE]

It may not hurt anything. LIke I said, it’s good to know how to do these things. But it is not necessary to get the things you want. When I start a horse, when I ride out of the round pen I am usually hoping I never have to go back in there. You can work him off your rein or lead rope from the ground before you ride him. Move him around you and get him ready and unstuck. But if you say what you cannot get on the ground you won’t be able to do from the saddle, then the reverse is also true. Because you probably do not know how to get it from the saddle either. If you do not learn what you need to do from his back, all the round pen work in the world is not going to help you. IMO

[VaqueroToro]

@Fillabeana;6585534

It sounds like your horse has been trained to plant, rather than adjust with, his front legs when you move the rear end around.

And if that first video is any indication, by Clinton Anderson methods.

1)He asks her to move her butt over, and gets what he wants when she swings her butt over. But she NEVER takes a step with the inside hind CROSSING OVER IN FRONT OF the outside hind.

Maybe one thing working for me is that my guy does step under, not just shuffle over. One of the things I do with him in his pasture/in his stall is something similar to what that guy’s doing but I ask for the nose to follow the rear and give to the pressure to keep slack in the lead, ie, if I’m on the near side I’ll have the the lead in my hands and I face his hip. I walk into his space like Buck does at 1:00 of that video you linked and he moves pretty much like Rebel (I think that’s Rebel, isn’t it) does rolling over in front/stepping under in back. He’s gotta give me both movements (and keep the float) nicely/calmly for about four steps before I stop and do the same on the other side. Perhaps instead of stopping the exercise to reposition, I should ask him to cross over in front of me at that point to do the other direction. I never thought of that before! :eek:

Buck talks to somebody named Melissa, about going about showing a horse what you want, until the horse does it with a quiet attitude- otherwise, you’re building scoots and ‘flees’ into the horse, ‘just makes the spring a little tighter’ as Buck states.

Makes sense in the “building a feel” way – working down to the most minimum signal to get the correct response.

The first thing that happened in the clinic was that Buck took my horse away from me, telling me that watching was like fingernails on a chalkboard to him- I was just basically a boat anchor on the end of the lead rope, annoying the horse.

Ouch! Yeah, that would be me. I’d probably be the first one he’d ever smack up side the head with a flag. :yes:

I LOVE your attitude. Realizing that you don’t have the knowledge or ability that you need to get something to work, is the first part of acquiring that knowledge or skill. You’ll get it. It might take some time, and some help, but if you keep after it, you’ll get it. I like to say that I have about a half a clue! Keep looking, noticing, trying, and get some good help, a good mentor.

I took a year off from riding him so I could get some hardcore time on a packer who took very good care of me and gave me loads of confidence. Now I find that we’re getting on MUCH better when I’m in the saddle due to that gain in confidence, but there’s still something missing on the ground, ie, I’m not the same confident person on the ground as I am on his back.

A horse has to learn to follow your intent.

We get sticky on this too. I’m not sure what sort of stimulus I’m sending that says “I want you to back up” when I move from currying his shoulder to currying his neck. Without fail he does this on his near side. And the freaky thing is, if I’m grooming him loose in his paddock, he doesn’t do this, its only on the cross ties. Horses are so weird!

I also have “True Horsemanship Through Feel” and love the book…I just wish I had someone to demonstrate things for me.

[Fillabeana]

I wrote a long reply, but it’s gone now…
Anyway,

I ask for the nose to follow the rear

My guess is that you’re getting the rear legs to cross over, but you aren’t getting the weight shift forward to only move the rear end over.
The horse has to SEPARATE the front, from the rear quarters. He’ll have to shift weight forward (and bend his ribcage, and also shift weight toward the outside of the bend) to step his HQ across properly. After that, he should shift his weight BACK to move the front across properly.
(Later in training, to do things like half-pass, the horse will have to weight his hind end while he crosses it over. But that’s later!)

If you’re asking him to follow with his nose, he has to also UNWEIGHT the front end so it can step over and follow, so I suspect you’re getting an unseparated, pop-bottle spin, with his weight pretty much not shifting anywhere.

Perhaps instead of stopping the exercise to reposition

If you have to stop to reposition, you’re probably missing something.

I’d really encourage you to go find some one-on-one help.
If you’re telling me about the confidence thing, then you know deep down something is a little hinky, a little not right. I’m convinced that what you’re really looking for is a horse that is really OK with you, and with whatever is going on, and that you know you are totally safe with- a horse that will help you out of a pickle, not a horse that you’ll be FUBAR with should you get in a pickle.

This stuff is pretty much impossible to teach over the internet, or over the phone. You can sure get things cleared up, questions answered via computer or video, but it’s only really going to work if you have help in person a few times a year, at least. It’s really, truly worth the ‘big money’ to spend on a clinic a few times a year, than spend money on lessons with someone who isn’t really a whole lot of help.

Go look up Buck’s clinic schedule, and Bryan Neubert’s clinic schedule. Call or email the clinic organizers that are close, within a ‘monthly clinic’ distance of you, and ask the organizers who might be able to help you.
Other good sources of great help are
Harry Whitney http://www.harrywhitney.com/
Josh Nichol http://www.joshnichol.com/
Tom Curtin http://www.tomcurtin.net/
Joe Wolter http://www.joewolter.com/
Ricky Quinn http://www.rickyquinnclinics.com/
Charley Snell http://charleysnell.wordpress.com/
Peter Campbell http://www.petercampbellhorsemanship.com/horseman/node/1
Martin Black http://www.martinblack.net/

There are a few others that will teach you to get control, respect, peace, and such without driving the horse endlessly around a round pen, ‘desensitizing’ , and teaching a horse to flee.

[Fillabeana]

Dlee. glad the book has been such a help. I keep referring back to it, too.
I’m now very excited because I’m headed to the post office to get my new ‘7 Clinics with Buck Brannaman’ dvds. Hooray!

And VQ,

Makes sense in the “building a feel” way – working down to the most minimum signal to get the correct response.

You have to get to where the horse is totally at peace with what you are asking him to do, doing it with a good attitude. It takes a minimum signal because the horse is untroubled by, and understanding well, what you are asking of him.

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6587386]

If you’re asking him to follow with his nose, he has to also UNWEIGHT the front end so it can step over and follow, so I suspect you’re getting an unseparated, pop-bottle spin, with his weight pretty much not shifting anywhere.[/QUOTE]

I do other exercises that single out the HQ from the FQ and vice versa, but they’re more along the line of pivot moves. Those do involve a shifting a weight either forward or backwards, but I’m not sure if its long the same lines of what you’re talking about.

If you have to stop to reposition, you’re probably missing something.

I just never thought of NOT stopping the exercise and physically moving myself to the other side of the horse instead of asking him to reposition himself so I could exercise the other side. I see what you mean about the bottle spin and yes, that’s an apt description.

I can’t find any “show and tell” for the stall exercises, but here’s some of the other exercises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNELls_v8hY (Richard Shrake’s Twelve Steps as taught to me by someone – not the lady in the video – who went through his programs)

I’d really encourage you to go find some one-on-one help.
If you’re telling me about the confidence thing, then you know deep down something is a little hinky, a little not right. I’m convinced that what you’re really looking for is a horse that is really OK with you, and with whatever is going on, and that you know you are totally safe with- a horse that will help you out of a pickle, not a horse that you’ll be FUBAR with should you get in a pickle.

The confidence thing is this horse in particular because he’s just…unpredictable. He’s a tester – I’m lucky he’s lazy too or I’d probably be dead. The packer I rode was a stallion and I get on great with him – he’s a therapy horse and frequently packs around 8 yr olds too – he’s not an old plow horse by any means though! We had issues for sure when I started riding him but at no point did I ever feel unsafe even when leading him back to his paddock past another one full of mares in heat. With my guy, I’ll lead him back with no issues 99 times, but on the 100th he’ll decide it would be the perfect opportunity to take off sideways from me at mach 6. Or sucking back in the cross ties after months of standing calmly in them (when nothing, including myself, is even near him, and he was standing calmly for the 10 minutes leading up to it). Insert other “fine for a very long time, then BAM!” behaviors here.

It’s almost like he snaps for some reason and says “f–k this s–t!” I know horses are unpredictable animals, but he seems more so this way. And it’s driving me absolutely bonkers to not be able to figure him out and thereby killing my confidence.

/vent mode off. Sorry.

Thanks for the starter list for clinicians. Unfortunately it might be hard to find someone who frequently comes to NY, but I do want to save up to possibly head out west for one.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6587389]
I’m now very excited because I’m headed to the post office to get my new ‘7 Clinics with Buck Brannaman’ dvds. Hooray![/QUOTE]

If you have the time/opportunity, please give us a review of them!