Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Roundness: English vs. Western

Western
#21

[QUOTE=froglander;7579018]
Going along with the comments about the behind the vertical the OP mentioned in reiners, do you think it ever has a place, as long as it’s temporary?

Lesson this week on Tuesday, instructor hopped on for 10 min or so just to see how he was doing, and there were moments that Cody was behind the vertical, but she said what she was looking for was softness over the top of the neck? and that moments of btv were okay and could be corrected later?[/QUOTE]

As an opposing thought to what your trainer said, I’ve hear other trainers say (and I think I would agree for what kind of ride I like), I’d rather have a horse above the bit than behind the bit, because once they learn to go behind as an evasion, it is harder to get them up and open. If she’s just accepting it because Cody is trying to figure it all out then that’s one thing. If she is purposely training for it, then I’d say a big no to that.

#22

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7579023]
As an opposing thought to what your trainer said, I’ve hear other trainers say (and I think I would agree for what kind of ride I like), I’d rather have a horse above the bit than behind the bit, because once they learn to go behind as an evasion, it is harder to get them up and open. If she’s just accepting it because Cody is trying to figure it all out then that’s one thing. If she is purposely training for it, then I’d say a big no to that.[/QUOTE]

No, I don’t think she was purposely training for it, it was more moments here and there but she was looking for softness/relaxation in his neck.

I’d heard the same, that it’s harder to get a horse out of the habit of going behind the vertical, sigh.

#23

[QUOTE=froglander;7579186]
No, I don’t think she was purposely training for it, it was more moments here and there but she was looking for softness/relaxation in his neck.

I’d heard the same, that it’s harder to get a horse out of the habit of going behind the vertical, sigh.[/QUOTE]

Is she more of a rollkur believer . . . in terms of softening the neck? Or is she just letting him find his balance?

I do know of people who purposefully train BTV, thinking they can then push the horse forward . . . but IMHO it is just wrong.

I think of a couple things in terms of softening the neck. One is that lateral flexibility comes before longitudinal flexibility. Is she doing lateral work? Flexion exercises in-hand or under saddle? “Untracking” of the hind end and getting him to step over/underneath himself? Softening of the neck doesn’t come from pulling the head down or going BTV . . . or if it does, then you are developing the wrong set of muscles. Softening of the neck comes from behind and is a result of the horse properly stepping underneath his center of gravity, lifting through the ribcage and withers, and lateral flexion.

Just like riding. If you are having a problem with stiffness in your hands or arms, don’t look at those as the solution - look further into the body to the head, neck, and shoulders and softness in the arms and hands will result.

It is time for me to go to bed, I may not be making any sense (and I didn’t even have anything to drink!)

#24

[QUOTE=Wirt;7577944]
This is an opinion, and a bit of a rant.
I am surrounded by western pleasure horses and trainers daily where I train. I see them ridden and trained every day. To compare anything about a wp horse being like a low level dressage or hunter, implies that low level dressage and hunters are just as unnatural and useless as “good WP” horse. Any so called roundness has been forced on these horses, any natural movement has been diminished until the horse is a parody of horse movement. The head is forced down, then the hind end driven up so unnaturally that the horse’s hip has to curl in to accommodate. Of course, this is considered desirable, and the horse over develops the muscles there. This artificial and unnatural process is rewarded in the show ring, and everyone pats themselves on the back on doing such a good job on well trained horses. Most of the horses look miserable, and a majority of them are lame in the front end. All this so middle age women with money who would fall off at any other speed but a crawl can enjoy showing and winning on barbie doll horses with fake tails.
In my opinion, WP is a distortion, and a aberration. What we call a good one, is a horse that just doesn’t care what is done to him, and goes along with it.[/QUOTE]

And this is why the western pleasure class is dying a slow, agonizing death, (except in the hotbed state of Ohio, and the QH Congress). (Recent Colorado show = 10 in WP, 45 in Ranch Pleasure) And, the big aged event purse money is now elsewhere. So you are not seeing the good horsemen on these horses. LOTS of front to back and method training.
Most of the truly good horsemen who used to train for that class have moved to other events like reining, or trail/western riding. The middle-aged woman aspect will remain to keep WP afloat.

#25

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7578860]
The difference is in the dynamics of the competition itself. In Dressage Collection with a big C. the horse enters in collection, stays in collection and goes through a series of highly collected moves, with perhaps a break with a walk, hopefully long and low, but forward, then back to the big C collected work. Both horse and rider are in a state of dynamic tension. [/QUOTE]

What? What about the lengthenings within gaits?

Or do you mean something else by Collection. I know dressage tests don’t ask for a collected version of each gait, all the time.

#26

[QUOTE=mvp;7579275]
What? What about the lengthenings within gaits?

Or do you mean something else by Collection. I know dressage tests don’t ask for a collected version of each gait, all the time.[/QUOTE]

Lengthening within the trot and canter must have collection. In order to produce those lovely extended trots, a horse is collected. Lengthened canter is also very controlled and certainly in no way related to a flat out gallop. In lengthened canter the dressage rider has 48 m to develop, and then collect that lengthening at the canter.

#27

I don’t believe so, she wants him to stretch into the contact, but she doesn’t want him to cheat it? She says sometimes the contact will get heavy, but the goal is for it to be light.

I do know of people who purposefully train BTV, thinking they can then push the horse forward . . . but IMHO it is just wrong.

That’s kind of what I thought, which is why I’d asked her about it. But she said for now it is okay. It /was/ a good ride, other than that, I thought. (weather has not let me ride since).

I think of a couple things in terms of softening the neck. One is that lateral flexibility comes before longitudinal flexibility. Is she doing lateral work? Flexion exercises in-hand or under saddle? “Untracking” of the hind end and getting him to step over/underneath himself? Softening of the neck doesn’t come from pulling the head down or going BTV . . . or if it does, then you are developing the wrong set of muscles. Softening of the neck comes from behind and is a result of the horse properly stepping underneath his center of gravity, lifting through the ribcage and withers, and lateral flexion.

Just like riding. If you are having a problem with stiffness in your hands or arms, don’t look at those as the solution - look further into the body to the head, neck, and shoulders and softness in the arms and hands will result.

It is time for me to go to bed, I may not be making any sense (and I didn’t even have anything to drink!)

We were working on him flexing one way and then the other smoothly. He kind of braces when we go from a bend to going in a straight line. We did a lot of random circles to straight lines to more circles and it /was/ better by the end of the ride. She has been trying to have him work the muscles over the top of his neck more rather than the under side.

When I ride by myself I try to ask him to step his hind end under/over often.

I’m still torn as to whether I want to continue with lessons for now or play on my own :frowning:

#28

I’ve ridden Western my entire life but I take English lessons every other week. One can always broaden their horizons. The basic principles are the same. You want your horse driving from behind with their hind end engaged, and the back rounded. In all honestly, I care the least about headset when I’m working with a horse. I am more concerned with what their body is doing. Because if their body is correct, the head/neck will usually take care of itself. You can fine-tune the head/neck later for the specific event you want to do with the horse … to some extent. As I already said, a horse that has a neck that ties in high with the shoulders is not going to physically be able to have a WP headset. Conformation does play a role on how far a horse can go in a specialized event.

Why does the poll have to be the highest point? Dressage is not the only way to ride a horse correctly. (Not to mention that some horses might not have the conformation to have the poll higher, especially if their neck ties in really low. ) I know this is a Hunter horse but then by the dressage “definition” the horse would not be collected because the poll is not the highest point?
Hunter Horse

There are going to be people in this world who will train a horse wrong, just simply so they can WIN. That’s all some people care about; even if they’ve made their horse lame in the process. No matter what discipline or event you look at, there will always be these people who take short-cuts and don’t do things the right way. It is important to surround yourself with horsemen and horsewomen who pride themselves on taking the time to train the horse the correct way and not push a horse into a discipline that they can’t physically succeed at.

Once again: Collection is collection. The horse has no idea its being ridden English or Western or Austrailian or anything in-between. The basic fundamentals to getting a horse to use their body effectively is the same.

#29

Beau, that horse you posted is so far on the forehand it’s not even funny.

#30

[QUOTE=tinah;7579981]
Beau, that horse you posted is so far on the forehand it’s not even funny.[/QUOTE]

I posted the picture for the sole purpose of a picture where the poll is lower than the rest of the body, as a visual.

So then why all the trash talk about Western Pleasure horses when apparently Hunters are doing the same thing as the WP folks?

In my English lessons I take every other week, my instuctor encourages me to “give” rein to my horse so that he reaches forward with his nose to match the bit (if I am explaining in the correct terms), thus putting his poll much lower than the rest of his body as he lengthens his neck. But he’s still driving from behind. And his back is still rounded. I guess I’m challenging the thought that a horse’s poll has to be the highest part of their body in order to be collected.

#31

Beau, that giving of the rein and encouraging the horse to reach for the bit is a precouser to"collection". All that is it’s the horse stretching the back, limbering up so that nothing hurts when you ask a horse to rock back and start pushing from behind. Yes, the poll will always be the highest part of the body when a horse is collected, but that doesn’t mean it will be high. Could be a couple inches about the withers. But any time the highest part of a horses body is 6 inches or a foot behind the poll, somewhere around the crest, a horse is not collected, just tucking it’s nose in.

#32

I love when the subject of collection comes up and you post this picture. It says all that needs to be said, so much better than I can!

[QUOTE=aktill;7576917]
I posted this a while back:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/OneOfTheseThingsIsNotLikeTheOther.png

There are only meaningful differences between people who train for “an event” rather than training for athletic ability.[/QUOTE]

#33

In my own terms I would say a western or hunter horse has an engaged hind end, a rounded back and the hind feet are stepping under. I think a good way to put it would be working over the back. A collected horse is the same thing but a step further. Lowered hind end and the poll as the highest point. I’m not saying that horses long and low are not working properly. I just don’t call that collected. Like tinah said, long and low and on the bit would come before collection if that’s what you’re working towards. I didn’t say Dressage was the only or the best way to ride I just think collection is a Dressage term and would never call a horse in a hunter frame collected. I’d say 2 twins, one doing long and low western, the other collected dressage, doing the same amount of work would last the same amount of time as ridding horses. Because both are using their bodies properly though in different positions.

froglander I still don’t know about the behind the vertical thing for reining. Rewarding a horse for being soft when it is BTV will still teach it to go BTV. I know a dressage horse ridden hyperflexed and BTV will get under neck muscle, a break in the neck, and get some kind of extra bone growth at the poll. They are ridden like that for and hour (more or less) every day so they have time for that to happen. Does it still affect a reining horse that way when they are only in that position for back ups and maybe spins? It’s not constant for the whole ride.

#34

IMO the discipline doesn’t make a difference it’s the style of riding… A good rider who has his horse from behind will look good in any discipline… I saw Poloplayers this year who collected their horses in a great way…if the horse works over his back he can do any discipline. But sadly you see many horses in any discipline who are not worked correctly… I rode a hunter horse some days ago… It was horrible the horse was like two horses… One in the front and one in the back… After some transitions… I got the horse together to one horse :). And the owner was impressed… Now the horse was able to do this hunter thing a lot better :). And I wasn’t even working on the head position…

#35

There is a difference between behind the vertical and behind the bit. If I have a horse that tends to get hollow, I can ride them a little deep (behind the vertical) and still have them coming over the back and pushing. It can help relieve tension in the horse that is prone to dropping the back, encouraging them to stretch over it. It encourages the back to come up and the hind end to engage more.

When they are behind the vertical, there is no THOROUGHNESS. You can’t funnel the power created by the hind end into you hands. If you put on your leg, you usually just get an increase in speed, not engagement, while feeling no connection. Usually, they are behind the bit, but dropped in the back with the hind end out behind them.

I hate riding a horse that is behind the bit. It is a terrible feeling. And I agree that it is NOT something you want to encourage. But you need to evaluate your trainer’s ride by the position of the back and hind end, not just the head.

#36

[QUOTE=froglander;7579727]

We were working on him flexing one way and then the other smoothly. He kind of braces when we go from a bend to going in a straight line. We did a lot of random circles to straight lines to more circles and it /was/ better by the end of the ride. She has been trying to have him work the muscles over the top of his neck more rather than the under side.

When I ride by myself I try to ask him to step his hind end under/over often.

I’m still torn as to whether I want to continue with lessons for now or play on my own :([/QUOTE]

Do you do any groundwork before you ride? I swear that had a huge impact on Mac’s softness under saddle. From the ground I’ll do all sorts of things (and I still do groundwork before every ride - not because I think he’ll misbehave if I don’t, but I found that it does help him warm up and be softer and mentally get us on the same page) like W-H-W transitions, W-T-W transitions, cavaletti at the walk and/or trot, shoulder in, haunches in, Buck’s walking half-circle exercise, a figure-8 exercise where I draw him to me (those two I think help with the tension in going from one side to the other), flexions, backing, backing in a circle, etc. I don’t do all of those every day, but I’ll do a few of them and they do help.

#37

No, I haven’t been doing any groundwork before getting on for a long while now, although day before yesterday was a play on the ground day, was also having fun ground-driving him around the arena and around cones and step over a flower box and stuff like that. (Someday I wanna learn to drive and teach Cody, lol).

I’ll try adding a bit of that before I ride and see how it goes :slight_smile:

#38

[QUOTE=froglander;7580826]
No, I haven’t been doing any groundwork before getting on for a long while now, although day before yesterday was a play on the ground day, was also having fun ground-driving him around the arena and around cones and step over a flower box and stuff like that. (Someday I wanna learn to drive and teach Cody, lol).

I’ll try adding a bit of that before I ride and see how it goes :)[/QUOTE]

I think if you do that ahead of time it will be a big help. It may also help you with your own sense of feel and timing because from the ground you can see how your horse moves, how/when it is possible for him to take a certain step, how he tends to carry his body in any habitual patterns, and find how and when your influence makes a positive vs. negative impact.

Sometimes I do trot circles around the arena (imagine a dressage arena with letters and I’ll do a trot circle at each letter and then straight between letters) and I watch for Mac when he relaxes and stretches his head and neck down. Once he does that, then he’s ready for me to get on.

If you have the 7 Clinics videos, watch them for ideas on what you can do. Pick out a couple exercises and work on mastering them. I really think it will help you help Cody! :yes:

#39

Thanks Pocket Pony :slight_smile:

#40

I’ve been following Brendan Wise since I attended his seminar at the Maryland Horse Expo. He is reiner who trained under the Lyons group (John and Josh Lyons) and then trained under Phillipe Karl. As a result he has the best of both worlds as reiner. I can tell from the way he rides, and how he now understands and teaches roundness that he has taken the best from both teachers. This is some video from the last day of his seminar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Hedm1qPKE

I like him alot. I’d attend a clinic with him any time. He’s approachable and generally a neat guy IMO.

Paula

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse