Routine antibiotic for foal

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=JB;5553919]
There are single-shot antibiotics often used post-surgery for longer-term protection.[/QUOTE]

Yeah…but…(you knew it was coming!)…surgery is somewhat different from being born. Surgery is invasive and potentially exposes internal structures that are not normally exposed to possible bacterial contamination. Being born IS moving from a sterile environment to the real unsterile world BUT is a “normal” event AND the foal is getting colostrum (or should be) that provides antibodies to whatever he’s been exposed to IF his dam has her vaccinations and has been in that environment long enough to develop antibodies to pass to the foal.

[Signature]

Never - unless foal has a specific issue we don’t give them anything.

[Amazone]

Ise and RE no one ever said that there have never ever been any problems, this is a very experienced breeder and I can assure you no old fashioned loon- perhaps you should not judge if you don’t even know who this breeder is, who is by the way also a very well known and respected vet in Holland. No need to get personal and insulting, I was merely interested in hearing different opinions. The world would be a much better place if people could be less judgmental. I really don’t understand why people cannot discuss matters on these BBs in a mature and friendly matter. The idea is to get information, not to bash everyone that does things differently than you do it. Just because it is different, does not necessarily make it wrong.

[RougeEmpire]

[QUOTE=Amazone;5555544]
Ise and RE no one ever said that there have never ever been any problems, this is a very experienced breeder and I can assure you no old fashioned loon- perhaps you should not judge if you don’t even know who this breeder is, who is by the way also a very well known and respected vet in Holland. No need to get personal and insulting, I was merely interested in hearing different opinions. The world would be a much better place if people could be less judgmental. I really don’t understand why people cannot discuss matters on these BBs in a mature and friendly matter. The idea is to get information, not to bash everyone that does things differently than you do it. Just because it is different, does not necessarily make it wrong.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you don’t really care what other people do. Everyone here has said the same thing “NO!”. If all you wanted was for people to agree with you Mr.Respected Holland Horse Breeder then why even ask peoples opinion? Most RESPECTED breeders here do NOT give routine antibiotics. Infact I don’t know a single breeder that does and as we can see by the responses on this board no one HERE gives routine antibiotics and most consider it an unusual proceedure. I would NEVER use a vet that recommends giving new borns antibiotics as matter of “routine” and the fact is I don’t know a single breeder that would do so either. So yea, I would consider this breeder in question to be STRANGE in his methods.

[Sunnydays]

Thanks for your input Hillside. I guess I’ll just keep smiling at my vet and saying “no thanks”.

[ise]

Amazone - CHECK WITH ANY VET SCHOOL HERE IN THE U.S. - they will tell you the same thing - overuse of antibiotics - for minor or no issues is creating major issues when the animals are REALLY ILL and they build up a tolerance to antibiotics. There are articles, papers and bulletins. It’s the same thing that’s happening with humans.

Now we have resistent bacteria that are showing up in human and animal situations.

What some Vet/Breeder does in Holland does mean SQUAT to me. But it does bother me that people here IN THIS COUNTRY start horses on SMZ’s when they don’t even know if they need them. And worse they don’t keep the animals on for the required period of time at the proper dosage.

Now we end up with resistent bugs that can kill our animals. A normal healthy foal DOES NOT NEED MEDICATION. And if they do have issues the specific type of antibiotic should be prescribed by a licensed Veterinarian for that pathogen.

And just for the record we had a yearling react to Penicillin when it was prescribed because she had a serious wound. It was touch and go but fortunately the Vet had medication to administer to minimize the reaction and she came through it.

And Bluehors - if you aren’t a Veterinarian - how are managing all the diagnosis to know which medication to administer WITHOUT DOING BLOODWORK? And as far as a study in Japan - (not exactly the worldwide center for Equine research and Veterinary medicine) - why would I rely on this study instead of solid information from Equine Veterinary schools here in the US?

[Amazone]

Ise- I never said I personally agree with giving antibiotics to every foal, but I do agree with giving it whenever there was anything weird in the pregnancy/birth. I am perfectly aware of the fact that overuse of antibiotics causes resistance etc. I just really think it is immature to call someone a “stone age loon”, (Rouge Empire), just because their opinions are different, or even wrong.

[szipi]

Plasma

[QUOTE=Amazone;5553514]
Do you give your foals a routine antibiotic shot after they are born? If no, why not?[/QUOTE]

We have had great success in reducing post-foaling infections and diarrhea by giving a dose of NEP (normal equine plasma) within a day after foaling. We give a dose pf plasma routinely to all foals regardless of success or faliure of passive transfer.

[Home_Again_Farm]

To me it would make much more sense to give plasma in the case of complications, rather than giving an antibiotic before a foal shows signs of an actual illness. Plasma would boost the immune system against likely problems without the danger of overuse of an antibiotic. An antibiotic would IMHO be more or less a shot in the dark against a possible unknown infection. We do not hesitate to use antibiotics if a foal becomes ill (and we always catch anything early, as the farm where my mares foal out is exceptional when it comes to monitoring health closely and jumping on any hint of a problem immediately). For me, plasma and Biosponge are our first choices. Antibiotics are used only when there are specific indications and we always try to use the right antibiotic for the specific problem.

[ise]

I’m beginning to wonder if some people feel antibiotics PREVENT illnesses when they TREAT them. The vaccines given to the mares PREVENT the illnesses and that is past on to the foals.

[RougeEmpire]

[QUOTE=Amazone;5556048]
Ise- I never said I personally agree with giving antibiotics to every foal, but I do agree with giving it whenever there was anything weird in the pregnancy/birth. I am perfectly aware of the fact that overuse of antibiotics causes resistance etc. I just really think it is immature to call someone a “stone age loon”, (Rouge Empire), just because their opinions are different, or even wrong.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the internet.

[Kyzteke]

@Home Again Farm;5557089

To me it would make much more sense to give plasma in the case of complications, rather than giving an antibiotic before a foal shows signs of an actual illness. Plasma would boost the immune system against likely problems without the danger of overuse of an antibiotic. An antibiotic would IMHO be more or less a shot in the dark against a possible unknown infection. We do not hesitate to use antibiotics if a foal becomes ill (and we always catch anything early, as the farm where my mares foal out is exceptional when it comes to monitoring health closely and jumping on any hint of a problem immediately). For me, plasma and Biosponge are our first choices. Antibiotics are used only when there are specific indications and we always try to use the right antibiotic for the specific problem.

I’ve never had a post-foaling infection (lucky me!) and use plain old Pepto for diarrhea with good results. Also, using probiotics on the foal at birth and on Day 3 seems to help reduce the foal heat diarrhea. So I’ve never needed to get fancy. And, as I noted, I would not dream of giving a foal “routine” antibiotics…that’s just stupid. (and ditto for their use in people).

But I’m interested in hearing more about the plasma. Are we talking the IV plasma like what is given for a low IgG?

I know with people, getting a blood transfusion is NOT a minor thing…the reactions can be deadly.

So educate me on this thing…

[alliekat]

Does anyone know more about the Vit. E shot for foals. Know risk?

[Kyzteke]

@alliekat;5557327

Does anyone know more about the Vit. E shot for foals. Know risk?

Well, my vet DOES do the selenium + E shot “routinely” in newborns…you need the E to help absorb the Se+ is my understanding.

She seems to think there is zero risk. BTW, we live in a Se+ deficient area.

[SeeHowSheRuns]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5557252]
But I’m interested in hearing more about the plasma. Are we talking the IV plasma like what is given for a low IgG?

I know with people, getting a blood transfusion is NOT a minor thing…the reactions can be deadly.

So educate me on this thing…[/QUOTE]

Same IV plasma. Not the same as a blood transfusion. Foal should still be monitored for a reaction - increased heart rate, etc. If there is a reaction, stop administering plasma. Wait, and resume at a slower rate.

I have also heard of people tubing a foal with plasma.

[Kyzteke]

@SeeHowSheRuns;5557374

I have also heard of people tubing a foal with plasma.

Why would you do THAT for an infection? Plasma doesn’t have any infection-fighting properties.

That (sounds) just as bad as giving antibiotics blind. For antibiotics to be effective you need to know the pathogen and give the right dose for the right amt of time…period.

Plasma would not address any of these issues.

As for putting plasma into the GI tract…boy, that’s a new one. I would think the GI juices would just render it useless.

Any actual science to back any of this up or is this just the newest “thing to do?”

[alliekat]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5557371]
Well, my vet DOES do the selenium + E shot “routinely” in newborns…you need the E to help absorb the Se+ is my understanding.

She seems to think there is zero risk. BTW, we live in a Se+ deficient area.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I supplement all of ours with Vit E as we have zero grass and was wondering if that should be something we should look into for this years foal. Thank you for the info

[Home_Again_Farm]

Hyperimmune IV plasma will boost antibodies for common equine illnesses. In the Ocala area many farms have problems with rhodococcus. It is in the soil and under certain conditions (hot and dry) can crop up and cause problems in youngsters under six months of age. Those farms routinely give plasma at birth as a preventive for that.

My point was that if there was a major problem in a foaling (red bag, poor colostrum, something like that), I would opt for plasma to boost the immune system, rather than starting antibiotics right off the bat. For me, antibiotics are needed to treat an illness, not to prevent a potential illness.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

Plasma can be given orally or IV. However, the quantity that must be given orally for adequate IgG absorption usually is greater than the foals physical capacity. Therefore you would probably have to give it through several separate treatments. There is also the question of when the gut “closes” to this type of treatment. We know that the gut “closes” to antibody absorption before 24 hours of age, which is why we can’t/don’t use colostrum after this point to boost IgG. There is some evidence that plasma given orally after this time would produce the same situation. It is far more efficient to give plasma IV, and a far more “sure thing” in regards to getting the antibodies where they need to go. Of course, there are other oral products on the market, such as Seramune, designed to boost IgG if colostrum isn’t available.

As far as plasma fighting infection, yes, it is used in young foals for this purpose. It is why a veterinarian should check a sick foal’s IgG level, even if it had a good IgG test at birth. In a sick foal if you check the IgG level and the level has crashed, then you know all those antibodies are being used up to fight an infection somewhere. In those cases it is generally the treatment of choice to use IV plasma, just as you would with a failure of passive transfer foal. And I’m talking about foals from a few days to a few weeks old.

[Kyzteke]

@Hillside H Ranch;5557577

Plasma can be given orally or IV. However, the quantity that must be given orally for adequate IgG absorption usually is greater than the foals physical capacity. Therefore you would probably have to give it through several separate treatments. There is also the question of when the gut “closes” to this type of treatment. We know that the gut “closes” to antibody absorption before 24 hours of age, which is why we can’t/don’t use colostrum after this point to boost IgG. There is some evidence that plasma given orally after this time would produce the same situation. It is far more efficient to give plasma IV, and a far more “sure thing” in regards to getting the antibodies where they need to go. Of course, there are other oral products on the market, such as Seramune, designed to boost IgG if colostrum isn’t available.

As far as plasma fighting infection, yes, it is used in young foals for this purpose. It is why a veterinarian should check a sick foal’s IgG level, even if it had a good IgG test at birth. In a sick foal if you check the IgG level and the level has crashed, then you know all those antibodies are being used up to fight an infection somewhere. In those cases it is generally the treatment of choice to use IV plasma, just as you would with a failure of passive transfer foal. And I’m talking about foals from a few days to a few weeks old.

Very interesting info. Thanks.

But, given the risks of IV plasma, wouldn’t antibiotics be safer over all? I mean, I don’t know the science behind it all, but I would think antibiotics would start immediately, whereas just giving the foals immune system a “boost” would take longer.

Again, I would be very interested in hearing about what ever studies have been done on this.

As for the rodococcus, we don’t have that issue here, so no knowledge of it. It is a bacteria or resistant to antibiotics? Why does it act differently that other “outside pathogens” which the mare, when properly vaccinated, develops a resistance to which she passes on to her foal?

Always something new to learn…