So please clarify: if you had a red bag delivery (let’s say) but the foal’s IgG tested fine, would you still give plasma?
Or adopt a “wait & see” attitude and give the plasma if something developed.
The only time I’ve give plasma to a foal is because they had a low IgG and we missed the "Seramune " window.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5559290]
Very interesting info. Thanks.
But, given the risks of IV plasma, wouldn’t antibiotics be safer over all? I mean, I don’t know the science behind it all, but I would think antibiotics would start immediately, whereas just giving the foals immune system a “boost” would take longer.
Again, I would be very interested in hearing about what ever studies have been done on this.
As for the rodococcus, we don’t have that issue here, so no knowledge of it. It is a bacteria or resistant to antibiotics? Why does it act differently that other “outside pathogens” which the mare, when properly vaccinated, develops a resistance to which she passes on to her foal?
Always something new to learn…:)[/QUOTE]
I would consider IV plasma given slowly by a competent vet to be safer than antibiotics for a newborn. I have used it routinely regardless of IgG status since I had a case of rodococcus in a foal born during a drought a few years ago. My vet does not think I am at high risk for another case since none of the other foals have ever contracted it, but compared to the cost of treating for the disease, the plasma is cheap insurance.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5559290]
Very interesting info. Thanks.
But, given the risks of IV plasma, wouldn’t antibiotics be safer over all? I mean, I don’t know the science behind it all, but I would think antibiotics would start immediately, whereas just giving the foals immune system a “boost” would take longer.
Again, I would be very interested in hearing about what ever studies have been done on this.
As for the rodococcus, we don’t have that issue here, so no knowledge of it. It is a bacteria or resistant to antibiotics? Why does it act differently that other “outside pathogens” which the mare, when properly vaccinated, develops a resistance to which she passes on to her foal?
Always something new to learn…:)[/QUOTE]
Despite what you read on this board, the risk of a severe reaction to plasma are small. In fact, most of the foals that do have problems are those that are not being monitored appropriately. You can NOT give plasma quickly (at least, not to start) and you can NOT leave the foal unattended. With plasma, you start off slowly for the first 5-10 minutes. If you are going to have a reaction you will know it in that time frame. There will be shaking, twitching and even a spike in temperature. If you slow or stop the transfusion at that point, those foals will recover and you can proceed again later. Generally the second try goes without a hitch It is when you blast them with plasma, or leave them unattended, that you get severe problems.
As far as giving a sick foal plasma vs. antibiotics that has never been an either/or choice in our practice. If the foal is ill and it needs both, it gets both. If we are talking only failure of passive transfer then the foal only gets plasma, as it isn’t actually “sick” yet, so no need for antibiotics. If I had a sick foal I wouldn’t use plasma in place of antibiotics. Now, that being said, plasma isn’t just a “boost” to the immune system. It is actually introducing antibodies directly into the foal, which does act quickly. I’ve seen foals with failure of passive transfer who were a little weak, a little lethargic, but no fever or other obvious “symptoms” of illness. After receiving plasma they are almost like a different animal; within a very short time frame (same day) I’ve seen them go from weak to running/playing like maniacs. I think the bottom line is that the immune system is so complicated we may never know all the ifs/whys/hows to why certain things work the way that they do.
Rhodococcus is different. Regular plasma does not have rhod. antibodies. You have to buy separate rhod. hyper-immune plasma. On farms that are known to have rhodococcus problems ALL foals will often receive this plasma at birth. This is not the same plasma that is generally used for FPT. There is no FDA approved vaccine for rhod., so you can’t vaccinate your mares for it. The other problem is that even though the mare may be exposed, adult horses are generally not affected. It is a tricky bug, b/c it is an intracellular bacteria and for reasons unknown mares don’t seem to form antibodies to it that are passed on to the foals. Now, to make hyperimmune plasma obviously the donor horses are receiving some type of exposure that is increasing antibody production to rhod. I know that way back in the early
90s they were doing this by giving adult horses repeated parenteral doses of viable R. equi. However, I don’t know if that is the current protocol and none of those companies provide those types of details very easily 
All I know is that you can’t vaccinate mares for rhod., treatment is difficult and on endemic farms the plasma seems to be the best way to go!
Very good info! And I’m glad that rhoc. is one thing I DON’T have to worry about…
No. It would be wait and see. And I definitely would not give antibiotics for a red bag.
This. :yes:
Hillside, you said it all much better than I did. :yes:
Thought I would check before I posted about this. Newish (reading this) research & announced at a veterinary conference and this is very layman terms is that joint ill is caused by foals that don’t suckle quickly enough and obviously suffer from delayed receipt of colosturm from their mothers. What they do is suckle everything around them before they find the good stuff which is what allows the bacteria into their bodies so even though they eventually get colosturm the bacteria have already started making progress. Anyway without know the stats etc apparently joint ill is significantly reduced by using this protocol.
I was amazed when the vet advised that to protect against joint ill the best method was to give 1 shot a day for the first 3 days. Also it wasn’t necessary to iodine the umbilical stump!! Obviously my foal was in a healthy environment but we didn’t know when she first suckled as no one was around and that wasn’t due to the planning that was in place.
BTW when I crossed question the vet they advised that after 25 years of ensuring stumps were iodined they were also stunned (which really isn’t quite the right word for the sentiment expressed as their family also owns a very well respected stud so that is allot of stumps:winkgrin:) to find out that it didn’t protect against joint ill. Apparently many Australian TB farms now follow this protocol.
I give my foals colostrum by bottle within a minute or two of birth for this reason. I may give it anywhere from two to four times depending upon how long it takes the foal to get up.
A reproductive specialist vet I used about 25 years ago for foaling ALWAYS gave antibiotics to new borns. I don’t know if he still does. I don’t do this, for the reasons posted here already. But I always figured he did this IN CASE the foal did not get the antibody transfer from the colostrum/did not get enough colostrum, or did not get enough colostrum in time. If, after testing the blood after the 24 hour period, the antibody level was low, one would be happy that the antibiotic treatment had already started earlier, while getting the plasma transfusion ready. If the blood test showed full transfer, then the antibiotic injection was needless.
About the umbilical stump dip question, well, a lot of foals born ferally or at pasture don’t get it, and survive without it fine. Horses bred and foaled out for millenia without it, successfully for the most part. But I don’t think it does any harm, and might help. It’s easy enough, and cheap.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;5957492]
I give my foals colostrum by bottle within a minute or two of birth for this reason. I may give it anywhere from two to four times depending upon how long it takes the foal to get up.[/QUOTE]
Exactly what I do as well. 
And I dip the umbilical stump in iodine.
So far so good. :yes: My only problem foal was one that didn’t get colostrum fast enough… and thereafter was unable to get up unassisted due to severely contracted tendons… AKA; not your standard foal. :sadsmile:
My old time vet used to give routine antibiotics at birth and admitted that he did it to make the owners feel better rather than thinking it was particularly useful.
With all the antibiotic resistance these days, we stopped doing it a decade ago and have had no problems. We also did not like the idea of killing all the good bugs with the bad at birth either.
Due to worries about rhodococcus, we have started routinely giving plasma and that seems to be the best of all worlds. Expensive, but cheaper in the long run.
Why do I read horse forums! Thanks for the info on Rhodococcus.
But if you’re doing an IgG check at about 12 hours, you still have time to either stuff some colostrum in and check again shortly, and if that’s still low, then do plasma. Sure, the antibiotics would be cheaper, but isn’t it better to leave them for when they’re really needed?
About the umbilical stump dip question, well, a lot of foals born ferally or at pasture don’t get it, and survive without it fine. Horses bred and foaled out for millenia without it, successfully for the most part. But I don’t think it does any harm, and might help. It’s easy enough, and cheap.
Many foals die out in the wild. More than I think you think 
Those who survive do so in spite of the lack of modern care.
[QUOTE=Amazone;5553514]
Do you give your foals a routine antibiotic shot after they are born? If no, why not?[/QUOTE]
no. that is what they have an immune system for. Abx kill the good flora in the intestine and un needed abx use is an excellent way to hurry along abx resistant diseases.
[QUOTE=JB;5971598]
But if you’re doing an IgG check at about 12 hours, you still have time to either stuff some colostrum in and check again shortly, and if that’s still low, then do plasma. Sure, the antibiotics would be cheaper, but isn’t it better to leave them for when they’re really needed?
Many foals die out in the wild. More than I think you think Those who survive do so in spite of the lack of modern care.[/QUOTE]
I agree JB, in both cases. Which is why I do not give antibiotics to newborns, and do dip buttons. The point of my post was that some do differently, and perhaps some of their reasoning why. I have a neighbour who foals her mares out in the field, and notices at some point, a few days later perhaps, if a foal has arrived. No button dipping. No rhino shots, no tetnus shots on mares. Hasn’t lost one in years. Go figure.
I know, I know someone who breeds many mares a year and they all foal out on their own on 100+ acres - they see the mares with the foals coming up several days later, as you said. She says she’s never lost one - guess I’ll have to believe her LOL
I can see not giving rhino if the herd is isolated, but one day that luck of not having problems with tetanus will run out on her
sigh amazes me (and frustrates me to no end LOL) that those who give so little care seem to have the fewest problems, and those of us who strive to do it all by the book end up with horses who rupture tendons running in the pasture :rolleyes:
Actually if the foal has drunk milk then it has colostrum in it. 24hrs I’ve been told before you will get an accurate test and really if the foal is drinking heaps and did so early what is the point. Not trying to be controversial but a summary of my vets opinion.
Drinking milk doesn’t have anything to do with whether the milk has (sufficient) colostrum.
If vets think just drinking early and often and enough is all it takes, then they are going to be the cause of sick or dead foals if they pass that “info” on to their clients and tell them it’s not necessary to check the IgG :no:
I’m not shooting the messenger, really, but the vets you have talked to are dreadfully wrong on this. If this is your vet’s opinion, then that’s just a shame - this is not about opinion, this is about provable, testable facts.
[QUOTE=JB;5976686]
Drinking milk doesn’t have anything to do with whether the milk has (sufficient) colostrum. [/QUOTE]
or if the foal was able to absorb the antibodies.
ALWAYS, 1st properly vaccinate the mare and make sure she is in the environment at least 30 days before foaling if possible. Then test the colostrum, (with the antifreeze tester) then the foal’s IgG.
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