Royal Heritage vs. Collegiate vs. used saddles?

[marciemare]

Former H/J rider here, just moved to a new state and have been taking lessons at an eventing barn and am really enjoying it! However, the saddle situation for school horses at this barn is a bit different from what I’ve seen elsewhere: school saddles (mostly Wintecs) are not assigned to individual horses and it’s “first-come, first-serve” on getting a decent-fitting school saddle for both horse and rider.

So, I’m considering getting my own saddle. I don’t have a big budget (<$1000) and am intrigued by the idea of adjustable trees–I’ve done some research and know they don’t “fit every horse” but as an adult rider who will likely continue ride multiple horses in the future, this feature sounds appealing. I have found two in my price range (both retail for $850), but there are some major pros/cons with each:

• Royal Heritage/Royal Highness Arora: I have never heard of this brand before, but my local tack shop has many of their saddles in stock. I sat in a 17.5" size of this model in the store and it was very comfortable and the leather seemed to be of good quality. (I also tried the Eve and Hannah models from this company, but didn’t like them as much.) This saddle is also on sale at another tack shop ~2 hours’ drive away for $200 less and they have both 17" and 17.5" in stock, which is both appealing and a minor red flag!
• Collegiate Honour: My first saddle was a Collegiate Graduate (in the '90s), so I know & trust the brand–but I’ve heard that quality has gone downhill recently and that their adjustable system is challenging to use. I also don’t have a tack shop near me that is a stockist, only Dover (which has about 3 shops that are within a 60-90 minute drive radius from where I live/ride). The 17.5" is in stock, but the 17" size is backordered until July.
• Something used: I live a reasonable drive away from a number of tack shops that specialize in consignment and have a good selection of used saddles (Maryland Saddlery, Rick’s Heritage Saddlery). However, I haven’t seen a used saddle with an adjustable gullet anywhere, and most of the saddles available in my price range (HDR, Crosby, Circuit, etc.) seem to favor narrower/more Thoroughbred-type horses. My last saddle was a Beval Natural that I looooved and originally wanted to get another one used, but they are very hard to find and I doubt it would fit most of the horses at this barn.

A little extra background: I am an experienced adult and have been regularly riding a large pony mare (originally because she was for sale, now to keep her schooled up because she has a young, more inexperienced new owner). This pony is very hard to find a school saddle that fits, and her new owner’s parents won’t let me use her custom County saddle because it is “pony sized” (I measured it and the seat is indeed too small for me). I’ve been rotating between a few school saddles that are a bit too small for me (16"/16.5") because they fit the pony better, usually the only options are choice between those and a wide-tree 18" that is way too big for us both!

[Scribbler]

Go for a used saddle and a shim pad as needed. The changeable gullets aren’t that simple to change, and honestly I’ve been able to use a sheepskin or a gel riser to fill in a slightly too wide wither gullet.

The thing that isn’t adjustable is the curve and drop of the tree as reflected in the panels. A little bit of bridging can be filled by a saddle fitter or a shim but a too curvy saddle that rocks on the horse can’t be fixed.

I would look for a quality used saddle in your price range that fits the pony. By quality I mean one of the Semi custom brands that sell for $4000 and up through brand reps. You can get a perfectly functional older saddle for $500.

The bonus is that a used saddle at that price range tends to keep the value you paid for it. Whereas a new $850 saddle is bargain basement and going to depreciate by 50% as soon as you take it out of the store.

You will need some idea of the shape of the pony’s back to go shopping. But there is no guarantee the bargain tack shop saddles actually are going to fit her back either.
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[Moneypitt]

You might find a nice used Pessoa saddle with the x-change gullet fits a wide variety of horses and ponies. It’s a pretty versatile saddle that can work for various horses. Of course; might not fit them all. No saddle will.

*When shopping used look for the Phillips screw head under the dee ring. Sometimes the billet covers are missing which are stamped x-Change for the changeable gullet. That extra screw denotes the changeable gullet.

I was pleasantly surprised to see how well a little kid size Pessoa Pony saddle fit our big Warmblood horse, with the wide gullet plate in. Horse takes AO2 gullet (extra wide) in their adult saddle. Wide body low withers 17 hands 1500#.

[marciemare]

Thanks for the advice @Scribbler! That is a really good point about resale value–when I was selling my old Beval I was amazed at what the consignment shop recommended selling it for, even though it was 10 years old and had seen heavy use.

I definitely hear you about the curve and drop of the tree–I’m pretty sure this pony has a flatter back and low withers, which is why she has a reputation as a tricky fit. I’ll take a photo of her back and bring it into a shop when I look for saddles, even though I definitely won’t go without a test ride, either!

I found two used saddles that might be viable options, going to try and drive down to look at them soon:

• Bates Caprilli: People seem to have a love/hate relationship with Bates, mainly because of the CAIR panels–but it looks like this saddle is quite old and may not have those? I’m definitely going to ask–trying to avoid foam if possible, but the price of this I could probably swing a reflocking if necessary. It does have an adjustable tree, which is a bonus, but not sure what size is currently installed (or if it includes all gullets or just one). The price also seems suspiciously cheap to me, what do you all think?
• M. Toulouse Premia: This seems like a nice saddle and has gotten good reviews from what I’ve seen. I didn’t like back blocks when trying saddles in my teens, so I’d probably remove those, but nice to have the option in case I change my mind. I also have a lesson-mate who rides in a Toulouse right now and also may be selling hers due to getting a new horse, so keeping an eye on that as an option as well!

[DollyDoll]

I’ve always gone for used saddles, pretty cheap and if you have a good eye (or someone with a good eye to help you find a good saddle for cheap) you can get amazing saddles others might overlook and you get to actually try the saddle out unlike new saddles. Personally, I just got an Antares saddle for 1,100 with only about three to five rides thanks to my trainer because he saw someone who had just quit the sport and needed their stuff gone.

Pessoa saddles also are great and can fit a ton of different horses, put on a saddle pad and some sort of sheepskin to help the fit and you’re golden.

Since you would be riding lesson horses the Bates seems like a better choice but not sure what others think

[marciemare]

@Moneypitt & @DollyDoll Good to know! I tried a Pessoa A/O back in the day and it didn’t agree too well with me (I prefer saddles with a deep seat), but definitely willing to give them another try! The positive experience with a wide-backed, low-withered horse and a Pessoa is also promising as I think that’s where this pony is at–but for me, having a background with old-school hunter Thoroughbreds in my teens and OTTBs at the last barn I was riding at, fitting a wider, sturdy pony is a new experience!

I haven’t seen a ton of Pessoas on the used market around me that are priced in my price range, but I will definitely keep looking and jump on one if I see it! Also good to know that they are in the adjustable gullet game now, too–definitely a bonus.

[Scribbler]

Don’t count on being able to switch out foam/wool. Foam panels are much thinner than wool panels so if the saddle fits with foam, it won’t fit with wool. I have never heard anything good about air panels at any price point but there is nothing wrong with foam other than you cannot tweak the fit as easily. All the top French jump saddles are foam so it’s not considered a bargain short cut. Voltaire CWD Devoucoux etc etc all foam.

[Renn_aissance]

I totally agree with everything @Scribbler said, particularly given your location- you have access to some very good resources in MD Saddlery and Rick’s Heritage (and if you’re driving distance to those two, you might also consider Middleburg Tack Exchange in VA) to sit in a lot of different saddles and find out what feel you like. The staff will also be able to give you ideas on what might suit the pony based on conformation photos.

In your price range, I would stay away from M. Toulouse- which I don’t think are good quality- and I agree with Scribbler on the value of an average-built saddle and a good shim pad. This is a very legitimate option if you ride a lot of school horses and the route I advised my mother to take in the same situation. Brands that may fall into your price range used include Beval (the Natural is a great saddle if it fits you and readily available used- standard tree may run a bit narrow) and Dover’s Circuit, which I actually really like as a reasonable-quality saddle that rides as higher budget than it actually is. I have no idea what fits your pony and you need, but MD Saddlery currently has a BDH, Dominus, and Jaguar in your price range and all three of those manufacturers are a quite good quality product that flies under the radar (so, lower in price.)

[marciemare]

@Scribbler Very true about French saddles and foam–I think part of the issue is the fitter that works with my new barn is a County rep, so the gospel of wool flocking is preached pretty hard (and air panels are hated on pretty hard–but I have heard that other places as well)! Also, it seems like when I was last looking for saddles, foam was the only option so now having so many more choices is both helpful and more confusing! I was referring to possibly replacing CAIR with wool, which I’ve heard can be done for $300-400.

@Renn_aissance Thanks for the tip on Middleburg Tack Exchange–I’m in central PA so it’s a bit of a hike for me (about 2.5 hours’ drive), but worth keeping an eye on! And I definitely appreciate the honesty about the Toulouse. I rode in some Circuit and Dominus saddles at my old barn and liked them, so the Dominus at MD Saddlery definitely looks promising as well (and I also just noticed that they have a Pessoa available on my price range that I must have missed before, so adding that to my “to-try” list as well!).

Since shim pads have come up a lot, are there certain types/brands that you’d recommend? 4-panel vs. 6-panel? Though looking around the forums it seems like there are a lot of opinions on this topic!

[Jackie_Cochran]

I have been using the BOT/ThinLine Contender II six pocket pad for several years. The BIG advantage of a six pocket pad is that you can shim it up for a sagging horse spine.

I finally found a saddle that I can use on multiple lesson horses, often in combination with the Contender II saddle pad referred to above, to fit most horses adequately. Unfortunately my saddle is beyond your price point, it is the Pegasus Butterfly Claudia jumping saddle, but the front of the saddle seems to fit every horse (the front of the saddle has hinges which lets it adapt to most horses.) It is sort of has flat panels, but with the Contender II saddle pad I was able to successfully fit it to the horse with the most sagging croup high back that I had seen in over 50 years.

I tried, and hated riding in, the GP Wintecs, normal and wide. I tried a treeless saddle (with my balance problems with my Multiple sclerosis I discovered that I NEED a treed saddle.) I was feeling sort of hopeless until I tried the Pegasus Butterfly saddle, and now I use it on EVERY horse I ride, from ponies to draft type horses, shimming the Contender II saddle pad as needed.

Of course there are other six pocket shimmable pads, I just have not tried them. I wanted the BOT to make the horse’s back feel better and the ThinLine shims to help the horse not hurt as bad if I accidentally lose my balance and slam down on the horse’s back,which is why I settled on the Contender II pad.

I no longer own a horse, and now I just ride school horses of all shapes and sizes.

[LSBC]

For context, I am an adult who has never leased (for a long period of time) or owned a horse. I bought a used Devoucoux and had it for about 11 years before I sold it for $1,000 less than I originally paid for it. I think it held its value very well. I found I paid a pretty penny back in 2008, and that I could find a similar saddle for cheaper. I ended up buying a newer (and slightly larger) Devoucoux just recently.

I found that with the right padding, it worked reasonably well on every horse I put it on. I was riding some of the largest warmbloods in the barn and then would get right on to some OTTBs. You could definitely find a nice older model around $1,000 for sure. I found that a very used saddle was so much easier for me to “break in” than the newer Devoucoux I just got.

Mostly, I would say have patience! I tried every saddle in my local tack shop before finding my first Devoucoux on eBay. Once you know what you/the pony likes, you can search in a ton of different places.

[Renn_aissance]

@marciemare

Since shim pads have come up a lot, are there certain types/brands that you’d recommend? 4-panel vs. 6-panel? Though looking around the forums it seems like there are a lot of opinions on this topic!

I have a very defined opinion on this. I strongly prefer the 6-panel shim pads because they are more versatile in supporting a saddle that bridges slightly. However, I prefer that there is only one pocket, rather than 6 individual pockets, so that if you want to use a bridge shim and a back shim, for instance, there is a single smooth plane underneath the saddle rather than shim, divot, seam, divot, shim. I’ve never had problems with shims sliding out or shifting. Personally, I’m a fan of the Thinline Trifecta, but I’m not wedded to a particular brand.

@LSBC brings up a good point (as did @Scribbler above) that older French semicustom saddles can be found in your price range, often on eBay or Facebook Marketplace. However, as a word of caution, make sure you either budget to have the panels replaced (you can get this done in wool, often less expensively than having the brand redo it in foam- ask your local saddler whom they would recommend) or know how to read your preferred brand’s panel codes so you know what the heck you’re buying.

[Scribbler]

There are more 4 pocket shim pads out there than 6 pocket pads. The 6 pocket pads are more useful because they can help with a saddle that bridges or a horse with a sway back.

[marciemare]

@Renn_aissance

However, I prefer that there is only one pocket, rather than 6 individual pockets, so that if you want to use a bridge shim and a back shim, for instance, there is a single smooth plane underneath the saddle rather than shim, divot, seam, divot, shim.

This makes total sense–the creation of divots (and therefore potential pressure/rub points) with the pockets in these pads seemed like a very strange choice to me, too. Sounds like an option that might work would be to get a 6-panel pad to have more flexibility with the shims and then take a seam ripper to the lines of stitching that create the “pockets” in the pad and rely on the shims to keep themselves in place.

[mmeqcenter]

I always chime in on these threads, where COTHers will always tell you to get a used saddle for your $1000 budget because anything new at that price is trash, to say that I absolutely LOVE my Collegiate Convertible Diploma. I first bought a used one several years ago, it was about 10 years old when I bought it. I was advertised as a 17.5" but it was definitely a 17". I rode in it for a few years, not quite enough knee room for me but man it was such a great saddle. So comfortable, so pretty, so grippy. I got compliments on it all the time, and about a dozen people that came to try a consignment horse I had in a few years ago asked if it was a County. He left and I didn’t have a horse to ride over fences, my mare is dressage right now, so I sold it to a friend who’d been looking for something for over a year. She loves it. I missed it so much, I bought myself a new 18" one when they were on TOTD last summer. It’s just as great as the used one was.

Mine has the Easy-Change Gullet system, I don’t have any experience with the new plate system they’re using. The gullet changing systems that use the plates are never “easy,” per-say, but it’s not too terrible to change the plate.

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter You rock that Collegiate! Thanks for the dissenting opinion on this. Honestly, if I had to get a new saddle tomorrow and knew that it would fit the pony, that is probably the one I would go with. “Under the radar” saddles are my favorite, this whole hunter ideal of everyone having the same brand of saddle just seems bizarre to me! (No, I would not get a CWD even if I could afford one!)

Taking some photos and wither/back tracings after my next lesson on Saturday and heading over to MD Saddlery to try out some saddles afterwards… These are the current top contenders:

• Beval Natural: Okay, mostly for nostalgia’s sake since this guy isn’t in the best condition (and what was the previous owner thinking removing the thigh blocks?), but I can’t resist!
• Dominus: Might not be able to try this since it’s in the Delaware location at the moment, but the medium-wide tree seems promising for roly-pony.
• Pessoa: Moment of truth: do Pessoas and I still not get along?

[marciemare]

@LSBC Good to know! I had an AWFUL time in a new Devoucoux when I was trying saddles in my teens (also the reason for my hatred of back blocks, I think!) but my old barn had a few super-old ones for school saddles and I had to revisit that bias a bit because wow, were they comfy!

Definitely willing to be patient and enjoy the journey on this one–plus, gotta love an excuse to go in tack shops as often as possible!

[tohorse]

For used sadldes I really recommend searching on fb marketplace. You might even find a beval saddle. I found one of my saddles (that with shims ended up fitting my mare - for now) there and it was a deal of a century by every possible measure. It was sitting there listed for a couple of weeks, so I don’t think people look at their local listings frequently enough.
Also, if you can figure out a model that fits your horse I recommend getting a used saddle on ebay (that’s where I got my second saddle from). I spent less than 1k for both saddles combined and I routinely get compliments.

[marciemare]

@tohorse Thanks for the tip! I deleted my Facebook account in the wake of the Cambridge Analytica debacle years ago and honestly haven’t looked back (except for slight FOMO since my current barn has a private FB group). I’d like to avoid getting another account if at all possible, but you’re right that the Marketplace is worth a browse! I’m intrigued by this 17" County Stabilizer–might might be worth the trip and setting up a basic FB account just to message sellers.

I also took a look at TackTrader as it was recommended on another used saddle thread and think I might have found something promising in my area: 17.5 Close Contact Jump Saddle - Adj Tree. The seller might be being clever with the title since it seems like these Classic/Rembrandt saddles have a bit of a cult following (at least in some of the COTH forums!), but the price is right and the saddle looks to be in beautiful condition. Sent the seller a message, hopefully she’ll let me take it out on a trial!

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter

I absolutely LOVE my Collegiate Convertible Diploma. I first bought a used one several years ago, it was about 10 years old when I bought it. I was advertised as a 17.5" but it was definitely a 17". I rode in it for a few years, not quite enough knee room for me but man it was such a great saddle.

@mmeqcenter Well, wouldn’t you know that I took a look at Facebook Marketplace today and there is a 17" Collegiate Diploma for sale in Baltimore! The seller won’t let me do a trial on it, but is willing to negotiate on the price, so I’d like to hear more about your experience with this model, if you could?

When you said your Diploma was a 17.5 but measured more like a 17" and had limited knee room, could you describe that a bit more? I’m 5’3" but have been told I have a long thigh for my height (14" from crotch to kneecap) and “well-developed” glutes, so whether I’m a 17" or a 17.5" seat really depends on the saddle. If the Diplomas do run about a half-size small, that might be a deal-breaker–the seat looks pretty deep as it is, though obviously not as deep as the Wintec All Purpose saddles that I’m riding in now!