Royal Heritage vs. Collegiate vs. used saddles?

[mmeqcenter]

I always chime in on these threads, where COTHers will always tell you to get a used saddle for your $1000 budget because anything new at that price is trash, to say that I absolutely LOVE my Collegiate Convertible Diploma. I first bought a used one several years ago, it was about 10 years old when I bought it. I was advertised as a 17.5" but it was definitely a 17". I rode in it for a few years, not quite enough knee room for me but man it was such a great saddle. So comfortable, so pretty, so grippy. I got compliments on it all the time, and about a dozen people that came to try a consignment horse I had in a few years ago asked if it was a County. He left and I didn’t have a horse to ride over fences, my mare is dressage right now, so I sold it to a friend who’d been looking for something for over a year. She loves it. I missed it so much, I bought myself a new 18" one when they were on TOTD last summer. It’s just as great as the used one was.

Mine has the Easy-Change Gullet system, I don’t have any experience with the new plate system they’re using. The gullet changing systems that use the plates are never “easy,” per-say, but it’s not too terrible to change the plate.

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter You rock that Collegiate! Thanks for the dissenting opinion on this. Honestly, if I had to get a new saddle tomorrow and knew that it would fit the pony, that is probably the one I would go with. “Under the radar” saddles are my favorite, this whole hunter ideal of everyone having the same brand of saddle just seems bizarre to me! (No, I would not get a CWD even if I could afford one!)

Taking some photos and wither/back tracings after my next lesson on Saturday and heading over to MD Saddlery to try out some saddles afterwards… These are the current top contenders:

• Beval Natural: Okay, mostly for nostalgia’s sake since this guy isn’t in the best condition (and what was the previous owner thinking removing the thigh blocks?), but I can’t resist!
• Dominus: Might not be able to try this since it’s in the Delaware location at the moment, but the medium-wide tree seems promising for roly-pony.
• Pessoa: Moment of truth: do Pessoas and I still not get along?

[marciemare]

@LSBC Good to know! I had an AWFUL time in a new Devoucoux when I was trying saddles in my teens (also the reason for my hatred of back blocks, I think!) but my old barn had a few super-old ones for school saddles and I had to revisit that bias a bit because wow, were they comfy!

Definitely willing to be patient and enjoy the journey on this one–plus, gotta love an excuse to go in tack shops as often as possible!

[tohorse]

For used sadldes I really recommend searching on fb marketplace. You might even find a beval saddle. I found one of my saddles (that with shims ended up fitting my mare - for now) there and it was a deal of a century by every possible measure. It was sitting there listed for a couple of weeks, so I don’t think people look at their local listings frequently enough.
Also, if you can figure out a model that fits your horse I recommend getting a used saddle on ebay (that’s where I got my second saddle from). I spent less than 1k for both saddles combined and I routinely get compliments.

[marciemare]

@tohorse Thanks for the tip! I deleted my Facebook account in the wake of the Cambridge Analytica debacle years ago and honestly haven’t looked back (except for slight FOMO since my current barn has a private FB group). I’d like to avoid getting another account if at all possible, but you’re right that the Marketplace is worth a browse! I’m intrigued by this 17" County Stabilizer–might might be worth the trip and setting up a basic FB account just to message sellers.

I also took a look at TackTrader as it was recommended on another used saddle thread and think I might have found something promising in my area: 17.5 Close Contact Jump Saddle - Adj Tree. The seller might be being clever with the title since it seems like these Classic/Rembrandt saddles have a bit of a cult following (at least in some of the COTH forums!), but the price is right and the saddle looks to be in beautiful condition. Sent the seller a message, hopefully she’ll let me take it out on a trial!

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter

I absolutely LOVE my Collegiate Convertible Diploma. I first bought a used one several years ago, it was about 10 years old when I bought it. I was advertised as a 17.5" but it was definitely a 17". I rode in it for a few years, not quite enough knee room for me but man it was such a great saddle.

@mmeqcenter Well, wouldn’t you know that I took a look at Facebook Marketplace today and there is a 17" Collegiate Diploma for sale in Baltimore! The seller won’t let me do a trial on it, but is willing to negotiate on the price, so I’d like to hear more about your experience with this model, if you could?

When you said your Diploma was a 17.5 but measured more like a 17" and had limited knee room, could you describe that a bit more? I’m 5’3" but have been told I have a long thigh for my height (14" from crotch to kneecap) and “well-developed” glutes, so whether I’m a 17" or a 17.5" seat really depends on the saddle. If the Diplomas do run about a half-size small, that might be a deal-breaker–the seat looks pretty deep as it is, though obviously not as deep as the Wintec All Purpose saddles that I’m riding in now!

[mmeqcenter]

No, it was advertised by the seller as a 17.5”. When I received it, it was clearly stamped a 17”. I’m 5’7” and need an 18” for my knee to not go over the flap in jump position when my stirrups are at my preferred short length for 3’6”+; I had figured a 17.5” would be doable, and received a 17”.

Neither have run small compared to any other brands, as far as I can tell.

[marciemare]

Ah, good to know! The Diploma I am looking at says 17” in the listing but nothing in the photos verify that. I will ask the seller for photos of the size stamp and/or nail-to-cantle measurement to verify the seat size. Thanks!

[marciemare]

So I took a wither and back tracing of the pony on Saturday:

What do you all think? She’s got a bit more wither than I’d remembered, but I’m mainly concerned about back length and tree width now–her saddle area length measured about 16"-17" (it was hard to feel the last rib curving up to her spine as she is on the chubby side!) which seems pretty short-backed?

Went to MD Saddlery and got some used saddles out to try out this week:

• medium 17" Pessoa (as mentioned in the post above)
• medium-wide 17.5" Dominus (also as mentioned in the post above)
• medium-wide 17.5" Circuit Special Eq (grabbed this on a whim since it’s way flatter than I thought I liked…but unexpectedly, I liked it the best sitting in it in the shop, very interested to see how it rides. Also odd since it seems to be only available in Medium or Wide on Dover’s site, but maybe just a mislabeled Wide?) ETA: looked at the tag again and it’s actually just a Medium after all.
• possibly a medium-wide 17" Jaguar (from eBay, still working out the details with the seller)

The 17" Collegiate Diploma from FB Marketplace is still in the running, got some good photos from the seller but the bad news is it only comes with a medium gullet installed and I’m not sure how to go about getting a medium-wide or wide gullet should I need one. Collegiate lists two gullet types on their site, I’m guessing I would be looking at the Collegiate Gullet Series III listed “for older Collegiate styles” since they do not currently sell the Diploma? These currently do not have either size I might need in stock. Or do the Bates/Wintec gullets work since they’re all owned by the same parent company?

[mmeqcenter]

The seller doesn’t know what gullet system it has? Both of my Diplomas use(d) the Easy Change Gullet System.

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter I’m still waiting to hear from the seller with an answer to that question. I was just a bit confused since the Diploma is no longer sold and I can’t find much information online about what specific gullet system it used. It’s especially confusing as I know Collegiate saddles are currently made by the same company that makes the Bates/Wintec saddles (Weatherbeeta) but they also list their own gullets on their website, and I’m not sure if the Diploma was made before or afterWeatherbeeta was making saddles with the Collegiate name. But I’m probably making it more complex than it really is!

Is the Easy Change system is the same one that the Bates/Wintec saddles use? If so, that is good news since those seem to be the easiest to find online (and since my barn has mostly Wintec saddles, I may even be able to try a wider gullet from a school saddle or buy one off the barn owner, if needed).

[mmeqcenter]

@marciemare

s the Easy Change system is the same one that the Bates/Wintec saddles use?

Yep same one

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter Thanks! I hoped that was the case.

Just heard back from the seller and she says the gullet that is currently installed is black and was included in the saddle when she bought it used 5 years ago. So she thinks it could be Optifit Series III which are all black…but so is the Medium size Easy Change.

[mmeqcenter]

I’m like 99% sure it has the Easy Change system. I can’t remember ever seeing any listings state the Diploma had the Optifit. You could always contact Collegiate, though, and ask if they ever made any Diplomas with the Optifit.

[mmeqcenter]

https://www.collegiatesaddlery.com.au/products/saddle-accessories/opti-fit-gullet-series-3

Says what models it is compatible with. Doesn’t say Diploma.

[marciemare]

@mmeqcenter Thanks for looking into this! Calling Collegiate is a great idea–I agree that you’re probably correct, but since the Optifit only has Narrows and X-wide gullets available, I’d rather be very sure so I don’t end up with a saddle that I can’t get a properly-fitting gullet for!

[marciemare]

Another player on the scene, this “Pessoa XCH saddle” (as described in the listing):

Taking it out on trial this weekend but feeling good about it working for me at least, since the overall styling is giving me strong flashbacks to my late lamented Beval Natural. (I actually went “That’s my old saddle!” when I first saw it.) But trying to stay impartial until I actually sit in the thing!

@DollyDoll @Moneypitt or anyone else know what specific model this is? It uses the X-Change adjustable gullet system and going by the signature on the flap I’m guessing that it is in the Rodrigo Gen-X line, other photos show “banana-style”/pencil knee rolls and the Pessoa logo printed on the sweat flap, if that helps.

[Mander]

@Jackie_Cochran You’ve piqued my interest with the Pegasus Butterfly saddles.

Similarly to you, I’m on a variety of school horses. I’ve always felt a bit trapped between wanting my own saddle to avoid using cheap/uncomfortable school-horse saddles, but also not wanting to invest thousands of dollars into something that may only fit a fraction of the horses I’m on, let alone any horse I buy down the road. Maybe I can find a used one to try out.

[Jackie_Cochran]

These saddles are not completely problem free. I have a horrible sense of balance which caused me problems until I got myself full seat silicon tights/breeches, in fact I heavily recommend that everyone who rides in one of these saddles use the full seat silicon tights/breeches.

You see, unlike most saddles, the shoulder can come under the flap without being blocked by the ends of the saddle tree, and when the top of the shoulder got so far back my seat was literally shoved across the saddle seat. Without much of a sense of balance I just could not tell, it took my riding teacher showing me a picture she took on her phone to realize something was wrong. The full seat silicon breeches fixed this for me.

You will probably have to tighten the girth once you are in the saddle, sometimes more than once, more so than with regular treed saddles.

The horses like this saddle just fine. Even when I was a few inches off center the horse I was riding, who specialized in balking and backing up rapidly without me telling him too, did not get upset at all. Believe me, if he hurt he would have told me emphatically and immediately, he was not a very forgiving horse at that point.

Get a six pocket shimmable saddle pad too. I use the Contender II BOT/ThinLine pad, but any six pocket pad should work. Mine came with an 8 pocket saddle pad from the dealer and I could not get that pad to work at all for the rather saggy backed elderly horses I often end up riding. The panels on the saddle are rather flat and they are foam so the panels cannot be stuffed to fit the back of the horse. That is why you NEED a six pocket shimmable pad, especially when you ride several different horses with different types of backs. Just remember to add or take out shims if that particular horse needs his own configuration. With the six pocket pad I was able to make this saddle work on the horse with the most sway-back/croup high horse I’ve ever ridden. I just take the shims out for horses with “normal” decently muscled backs.

Another plus point for me is the lack of the pommel arch. This REALLY helps when I get up on a horse whose back hurts. I can scoot my seat around an inch further forward and the horses with ouchy backs really, really, really appreciate this!

I hope you can find one. I LOVE this saddle, both for the horses and for me. Plus if I ever am crazy enough to buy another horse (hey, I’m almost 70) I have absolutely no worries about my saddle fitting him (with the six pocket pad, of course.)

[marciemare]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the search is over!

Sadly, the Pessoa Gen-X shown above turned out to actually be marked as a 16” on the billet guards and measured as a 16.5”, so that quickly put it out of the running. I also tried an older, wide tree 17” Pessoa A/O, which fit the pony okay but was a long flap model that was overwhelming for my legs (and I was kind of meh about riding in it).

And then…
I found an almost-new Ovation Competition Show Jump saddle in a 17.5” size on Facebook, took it for a test ride, and loooved it! Super comfy for me, fits the pony nicely in a Wide XCH gullet (though I may have to go up to a X-wide if I want to keep riding with a half pad as that made things a touch snug in the shoulder). Also was well under my budget (negotiated with the seller and ended up at half-off current MSRP, though I think it may be last year’s model—#467064 is the number on the billet guards if anyone knows about these things). Just have to give it a little conditioning love as it seems to only have had an initial oiling and the flaps & billets are still pretty stiff!

(Side note—do newer Pessoa/Ovation saddles “run large” as a general rule? So far I’ve measured two and they both came in at a half inch larger from nail-to-center-of-cantle than was marked on the billet guards. I thought this seemed a little odd—had to check my tape measure to be sure that wasn’t the issue!)

Thanks to everyone in this thread for all the advice (and to @jn4jenny & @PROTACKGUY elsewhere in the forums for their wealth of experience on Pessoa, Ovation, and general saddle company/fitting lore)!