Rubbing and pushy behavior to get bridle off faster corrections? And instilling Whoa

[BellaMia]

I have started working my girl again and she has a behavior I want to nip in the bud. She wants to push you, rub you, toss her head, anything hard to get the bridle off faster at the end. At first I made her stand there quietly until I could undo everything and take it off, pushing her head away from me when she tried to rub it off on my chest. It was working but now she just gets more irritated and the behaviors worse when I ask her to wait quietly. Her teeth were last done the end of June, everything fits well. She loves her bit. She does know dinner time comes after working so that can be a motivator for getting it off, but what have you done to correct this?

I am also working on whoa. She knows what it means but will slowly creep into it while on the lunge. In hand she follows my lead. How have you instilled the all four hoof stop and don’t move with one verbal request? This is an OTTB.

[keysfins]

Is she rubbing her face, etc., because she is itchy? I have one who was pushy that way, and now she knows that I will clean and rub her itchies with a cool, damp facecloth after the bridle is off. No more trying to rub her face on her front legs, or on me!

Praise/scritch/treat for quiet waiting after you are done. You can also vary when and how you end any session. Stop, get off, get back on, get off in a different place, be unpredictable.

If the horse is anticipating digging in to dinner, you can use small treats while she is quiet with the bridle on, and after you take it off. Better treats than dinner! You can also mix things up and take the bridle off, put it back on and treat or praise for quiet, calm waiting.

Another possibility is putting the horse in crossties with a halter over the bridle, rub face for itchies, remove the rest of your tack, then remove bridle. She will need to wait until YOU decide it is time to remove the bridle. This is another sequence that you can vary so she never knows what piece is coming off first, and does not anticipate the bridle removal. Saddle, left front boot or wrap, right hind, bridle, left hind, and so on. Be unpredictable. Praise her for patience and standing quietly.

Where do you untack and remove the bridle?

[yellowbritches]

I just out wait my guy and bump or push him away if he knocks into me. Some days it takes one correction. Some days it takes a minute or two. But I’m always able to get it undone and off pretty easily and quickly if I just keep the same rules and wait him out. I DO let him run once it is off (no running AT ALL when bridled…not on me, not on his leg). It’s his reward and I know he’s itchy and he knows what I mean when I say “easy” and “enough.” These types of things usually just take patience and not falling for temper tantrums.

[RugBug]

You just need to be firm and consistent. If you a routine that means food after bridle comes off, upset the routine for a while so she’s not anticipating. If she’s getting anxious to dive and rub on her leg, don’t let it happen. You will need to have good timing and be very consistent, but you can break her of it.

FWIW: Both of mine are just fine with taking the bridle off and I do let them rub…not on me but I get in front of them and do a little head rub with both hands. They’ve both learned exactly what to do (they have to raise their heads up and down). My hands go up the front of their face, over their eyes and back down the sides. When I’m done, they know not to rub anymore. IT gives them a little bit of a treat and they seem to understand the boundaries just fine.

[TownesThatBigChestnu]

Townes does that same thing, rubbing his head all over my back (a little too roughly sometimes) the second I dismount. I never thought it was that he wanted his bridle off, since he has never seemed to mind the.bridle, even takes his own bit in his mouth… I scratch his face but he doesn’t act like that’s what he’s looking for.

As soon as I hit the ground, I loosen his girth ,but he is always half knocking me over rubbing his face on my back. I correct him, but he always seems confused as if he doesn’t know what he is doing wrong. Since he starts as I’m loosening his girth, giving him a pat & praising him for a good ride, I kind of thought he was being enthusiastic "in return’. That’s kind of how he presents it, happily - like way to go, Mom or thanks for undoing my girth.

My barn mates even joke about it.

[RugBug]

I get off and usually give my horses a little face hug (rub the flat of their face…and kiss their eyebrow holes…or whatever those are called), but by golly if they tried to rub on me, they’d learn real quick who is the owner of the space. They do not come into it uninvited. One wears a full cheek snaffle and rubbing can be dangerous in that bit (ask anyone who’s found themselves lifted into the air when a cheek piece caught a shirt or belt)

[BellaMia]

Thanks everyone. I don’t think it is ichy as much as she is done and ready to go on her own as once it is off she moves away in search of what she wants. I just do not appreciate it and don’t want her doing it to someone she will knock down and also won’t appreciate it. She had personal space issues when I got her and slowly those are being turned around so she doesn’t walk all over you or go where she wants pushing or pulling you along the way. I think this has more to do with a respect and control thing given her past. Regardless, I don’t appreciate it and with her becoming worse now instead of better at my making her wait until I can get her undone, I wasn’t sure if I should continue to push forward with the same technique or switch to something new. And now I have a few things including switching up when she eats. I was feeding her as a reward for doing well. You listen, we get done faster and then you get to eat sort of thing. I guess that may be backfiring now.

[Fig]

This is what I do; as you begin to unbuckle and they toss their head, hang onto it with a firm steady contact, then drop the contact when they quit. It’s all about patience. Also, when you take off the bridle over their ears, don’t just drop the bit out of their mouth, let them chew it out. If they fuss on that part, be prepared to keep the bridle over their head, but wait for his head to quite. This has worked on every horse I’ve used this technique on. It also helps to teach them to lower their head when you touch their poll.

[LookmaNohands]

If they do this as I am taking the bridle off–pushing their head against me, I use my fingernail to push back and stop trying to remove the bridle. Every time they try to push into me I use my finger or finger nail to get them off. I say “hold still.” As soon as they stop pushing I go back to removing the bridle. I want them to learn that the way to get me to take off the bridle is that they hold still.

If you continue taking the bridle off as they are pushing into you, that just rewards them for that behavior.

[Foxglove]

Disagreeing here --head rubbing is a social behavior in horses. The dominant horse rubs on the subordinate horse (or so I’ve read/been told) --never the other way around. Watch your horse in a group --whom does she head rub on? My guess it isn’t the alpha mare (or if she is the alpha, she’s rubbing on everyone else).

It’s a pretty quick fix, and personally, I’d fix it immediately before she rubs harder or becomes more pushy toward you on the ground. I don’t think a horse should touch me unless I invite him/her to do so. Further, I don’t allow horses 'in my space" without an invitation --a lot of this comes from showing in showmanship classes --you do not want your horse being pushy in the ring, or any other time!

OK, my favorite fix from John Lyons -and I think you can find it on Youtube. This works for horses that snap at you when you saddle them, nip, rub their heads or any other “dominant” ground manners issues. We do it in a round pen first, with a halter under the bridle, lead rope over your arm, or over horse’s neck, but out of the way. You ride a bit, dismount. Start your usual unbridling --the second the horse turns and touches you, shout as loud as you can! Boo! No! and depending on your horse, flap your arms, step forward --your goal is to scare her --horses don’t like to be scared! As soon as you’ve done that, (yell) immediately go back to what you were doing --no drama, just back to what you were doing. If the horse does it again, scare her again. Lyons suggests giving them a pretty good scare (end of the world) --and they quit right like that. Of course be careful --you don’t want to send your horse into a panicked rearing, bucking, running away mode --so adjust your frightful yell/motions according to your horse.

There is a second way that might suit you better --nose rubs. It too is John Lyons technique. He says horses really don’t like to have their noses rubbed (you know, hands on either side of the nose, vigorous rubbing like nuggies.) it’s his belief that horses understand it is a non threatening gesture, but really dislike it. The second your horse starts to rub on you, give her a though and firm “nose rub” all the while saying nothing --then go back to what you were doing, no drama.

I know some people think their horse is “itchy” or “showing love” when they rub on you --but it is not acceptable --wait until your grey horse totally trashes your newly cleaned hunt coat with a good head rub right before you enter the ring – my riding buddy actually keeps a towel in her tack box to “do” head rubs since her horse is “so itchy” --I think she’s teaching a bad behavior --but each to their own.

Foxglove

[HicksteadFan]

^ I’m not at all into the natural horsemanship thing and being dominant (that’s not to say I don’t like roundpens). You should never deliberately scare a horse.

I would go along the lines of what most people are saying. Just stand there (take off leg wraps, do some texting, call your mother, whatever you want) and if she tries to rub, get that finger or elbow in her face. If she really tries to go to town, try waving your hands at her eyes. Unless she’s really desensitized to that it should make her move away. When she’s calm, take her bridle off (or start) but as soon as she flings her head up, or moves towards you, put it back on and repeat. Do it until you can get that bridle off without her moving. Do the same every day. Horses learn by repetition so she’ll get there. You seem like a very patient person, a great quality for dealing with horses.

[toady123]

[QUOTE=Foxglove;8384430]
Disagreeing here --head rubbing is a social behavior in horses. The dominant horse rubs on the subordinate horse (or so I’ve read/been told) --never the other way around. Watch your horse in a group --whom does she head rub on? My guess it isn’t the alpha mare (or if she is the alpha, she’s rubbing on everyone else).

Foxglove[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. If you watch a horse in the field they don’t rub on the leader. They rub on the fence post. I AM NOT THE FENCE POST in our relationship!!!

This is one of my personal pet peeves. I can’t stand a pushy or rude horse that wants to rub and get in my space. My tactic is sharp “AAAAAT” and a ‘nip’ on the side of the nose (a poke or little pinch with my fingers). I also will not feed treats to a pushy horse until they are willing to respect my space.

Once the respect has been established I will rub or scratch when I get of and/or take off the bridle as I get that they can be sweaty itchy. But NEVER is a horse allowed to use me as their scratching post.

[Cavalo]

I’m assuming you are removing tack in cross-ties and not in her stall?

I’m not sure if it would be enough for this scenario, but anytime a horse tries to rub on me - I step back (after I’ve removed the bridle and reins are still over neck). Since they’re trying to itch, it becomes more of a pushing match to get them to stop, but they can’t itch on something that isn’t pushing against them. Usually they then figure out it’s easier to rub on their own front legs (which I don’t mind) than lean into me. Once she’s done rubbing on her front legs I slip the halter back on.

That might work so long as she’s going to keep coming towards you if you step back (even with verbal discouragement). One can only step back so much while keeping control.

[Lucassb]

One of the worst accidents I ever saw involved a horse that had been allowed to rub on his person. It had gone on for quite a long time and the owner/rider viewed it as a “thank you” to the horse to let him rub on her after a ride. She was told many times it was a bad idea - which it IS - but she persisted.

Anyway, one day she got off, walked the horse into a grooming stall, and was standing at the horse’s neck ready to take the bridle off when she turned her head to look at something down the aisle. The horse swung his head into her in anticipation of his usual rub and caught her in the face, quite hard.

The impact knocked her out, broke her nose, and the full cheek snaffle he was wearing caught her lip and tore it as she fell. She also had a severe concussion from the impact of his head on hers, probably not helped by the contact her head made on the concrete floor when she hit the ground. IIRC, the horse also ended up stepping on her as he jerked back from the impact - the rider basically fell underneath the horse’s hooves as she was knocked back toward his belly. She was unconscious and so could not do anything to avoid being stepped on.

She was (comparatively) lucky that there were two of us in the barn at the time to get her out from underneath that by-then panicked horse, provide some first aid and call the ambulance. Despite quite a lot of plastic surgery, she did have some significant disfigurement afterwards.

I was always a bit of a ground manners evangelist but after that I became pretty hard core about it. It is worth the time and patience needed to teach a horse to be respectful of their person’s space, and to stand quietly for things like grooming, vet/farrier work and being tacked/untacked.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Cavalo;8389477]

I’m not sure if it would be enough for this scenario, but anytime a horse tries to rub on me - I step back (after I’ve removed the bridle and reins are still over neck). Since they’re trying to itch, it becomes more of a pushing match to get them to stop, but they can’t itch on something that isn’t pushing against them. [/QUOTE]

Stepping back is actually showing them that they own the space. It’s positive reinforcement of the bad behaviour. The horse should learn to not swing its head into your space…and they don’t learn that by you stepping back…they learn that by you making THEM move away. You do that by putting pressure on the near eye…as much as they need. If simplly raising your hand isn’t enough pressure, you move your hand back and forth. IF that’s not enough, you should actually start tap, tap, tapping them behind that eye until the move away. If a gentle tap isn’t enough to get them to move away, you increase the strength of the tap until they do. Most will get it with a few determined taps.

You can see some of it in this video:
the first bay horse, Buck uses his rope at the horse’s eye to get the horse to move away.

Later in the video, around 1:29 he moves his dark bay horse (star and snip) away from him by pointing at his face. This is the result of the training I mentioned above and a results of NOT stepping back when the horse moves his head into you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksHSksrz9X4

FWIW: I don’t disagree that not being available to rub is one solution to the issue, but it’s not one that improves a horse’s training and ground manners. It’s avoidance. I’m not trying to pick on you…but this is where a lot of us land when it comes to ground manners. There is a better way that will improve the horse further…

[PNWjumper]

Most of my horses have come to me wanting to rub on me as I take off of the bridle. I smack, poke, or pinch any time they try to rub or push on me at all and that usually stops the behavior. But often they’ll still try to sneak in a scratch as I unbuckle the noseband, and for that I just drop my hands every time they start to push down. Usually only takes once or twice before they stand quietly while I unbuckle and remove the bridle.

Like others, I will often rub their faces on my own terms after a good ride. The rules are that the bridle must be fully removed and the halter all the way on. Then I will rub the sides of the mouth a bit. If the horse tries to step toward me or lean on me in any way I stop and the scratching is done for the day. Now most of mine (especially the smart mares!) will quietly wait while I untack, let me put the halter on, and then stretch out their necks for the nose scratches. I pat when I’m done and they know that’s it.

I don’t let them rub or scratch on me at all at any other time…especially if loose or in the paddock.