Rule Change making spurs optional in FEI classes; thoughts?

[poltroon]

@Mondo

“Soft contact” on what, pray tell? Contact, in its dressage definition, is contact with the bit. If you don’t have a bit, you can’t have contact. So I ask again, contact with what?

I think of it as a quality of the rein. No question that what is on the other end impacts how it feels. You can’t ride in a curb the same way as a snaffle and even the difference between a pelham and a double is very real. I believe, in our ideal, that the double is meant to be ridden with soft contact on the snaffle and softer contact on the curb, where there may even be a bit of a drape in the curb when the horse is working ideally, but the snaffle should have the lightest contact that doesn’t create a drape.

IME different kinds of snaffles will also impact the contact. Not necessarily in a bad way, it’s also why we find that some horses like different mouthpieces.

Last, I’d just say looking around our sport today, I don’t think we have problems around people using too little rein or too little contact.

[enjoytheride]

I do not know of a single bit less set up that is designed to be ridden on soft contact or contact period. Pressure and contact are not the same.

A flash or figure 8 are in no way the same as a bit less set up. I’m not sure why you’re comparing them, there are not reins attached to them, the function is not even close. I can ride my horse in a bosal or a side pull but I touch release on them to indicate direction and in most circumstances a horse is actually supposed to be"behind" what dressage riders would consider contact.

[Willesdon]

Bits apply pressure on the mouth. Side pulls and hackamores apply pressure on the nose. Which is better? What really makes a difference is the education and skill of the hands applying the pressure.

[Montanas_Girl]

@enjoytheride

I can ride my horse in a bosal or a side pull but I touch release on them to indicate direction and in most circumstances a horse is actually supposed to be"behind" what dressage riders would consider contact.

A bit of a derail, but this is what makes me, as a western rider, twitchy about western dressage. “Contact” in the dressage sense is absolutely antithetical to good western riding, especially in a curb bit.

[enjoytheride]

Right. I have issues w contact on the curb in western dressage. And really, western people start horses in a sniffle but they don’t do contact the way dressage people think of contact.

[Mondo]

@Montanas_Girl

A bit of a derail, but this is what makes me, as a western rider, twitchy about western dressage. “Contact” in the dressage sense is absolutely antithetical to good western riding, especially in a curb bit.

You get “twitchy” precisely because you don’t understand contact. When you take contact on the snaffle, (not the curb, and I always ride with a “drape” or “loop” in the curb rein), your legs are sending the horse forward TO that contact, so that the feel in your hand ends up very light if you’re doing it correctly. There is absolutely NO pulling ever. And that is why so many equestrians in other disciplines often look down on dressage, because they don’t understand contact and how it’s created. I once had a cowboy watch me put the double bridle on my horse and asked, surprised, “You have two bits in there?” I said, “yes.” He said, “I can’t imagine needing that much control.” That’s a direct quote. And I don’t know about you, but I never “control” my horse with the reins.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Mondo

You get “twitchy” precisely because you don’t understand contact.

No. I get twitchy because I understand how western curb bits work and why they should never be ridden on contact. Western riders “control” our horses entirely from our seat and legs, thanks. The bit is just for refined signaling, not control.

I am NOW a western rider. I wasn’t always one. Clearly, I understand dressage significantly better than you understand western riding.

[Mondo]

I started my equestrian life riding Western. I have zero issues with it - in fact, I’m still a fan. I am concerned that you took what I said wrong. Dressage riders control our horses entirely with our seat and legs as well, which I’m sure you know. The control comment was from a guy in a barn I used to work out of. It wasn’t directed at you. I even prefaced my remark with “I don’t know about you…” which meant I assume you don’t either. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

[endlessclimb]

@Montanas_Girl I get twitchy too. The curb length on a western curb is (by and large) FAR longer than on a double’s curb. The purchase generally is too. They are not designed for constant contact. Not even gentle constant contact. Not even educated hands constant contact.

[Montanas_Girl]

@endlessclimb Exactly!

[Montanas_Girl]

@Mondo

I am concerned that you took what I said wrong.

I took what you said wrong? I made a comment about not liking western dressage because dressage-style contact and proper western style riding, especially in a western curb bit, are contradictory. You replied that I didn’t “understand” contact and proceeded to lecture me about the difference between contact and pulling. Which has exactly nothing to do with my point that western curbs should not be ridden on contact.

[skydy]

@Mondo

You have two bits in there?” I said, “yes.” He said, “I can’t imagine needing that much control.” That’s a direct quote. And I don’t know about you, but I never “control” my horse with the reins.

I was hacking in a full bridle on a dirt road and a man stopped his car, rolled down his window and said " that must be some horse, it takes four reins to hold him!"

I was speechless and just smiled at him. Apparently the bridle was quite the novelty for him and the other people in his car.

[Mondo]

@Montanas_Girl

Which has exactly nothing to do with my point that western curbs should not be ridden on contact.

Yes, I did misunderstand you, sorry. I’m still not sure why you are all worked up about it. You need take no insult. I’m, trying to have a conversation, no snark intended. That said, I have judged quite a bit of Western Dressage. I agree with you that I don’t want to see contact on the curb. But “light contact” is required in Western Dressage, even with a curb bit. The writers of the directives seem more interested in whether or not you are using one hand or two on the reins. I would much rather see a loose rein, ridden correctly, when a rider is using a curb bit and wouldn’t penalize it if there was no “contact.”

[enjoytheride]

Light contact may be required with the curb in western dressage but there are zero other western curb based disciplines that have you using two hands on a curb. I would argue it makes it not even western. "Contact " with a curb is the weight of the rein.

Zero issues w snaffle bits in western dressage.

[Montanas_Girl]

@enjoytheride

Light contact may be required with the curb in western dressage but there are zero other western curb based disciplines that have you using two hands on a curb. I would argue it makes it not even western. "Contact " with a curb is the weight of the rein.

Zero issues w snaffle bits in western dressage.

This. Exactly.

[TwiSedai]

I would LOVE if the dressage associations would allow at the very least no nosebands, but I’d also love if they allowed bitless.

For anyone that thinks you can’t have real contact with a bitless: a few days ago, I was hacking my mare out in the field. I always use my bitless on her when we hack out, it’s basically a noseband with little rings attached the the sides so it’s like a side pull. The weather was pretty drizzly and a bit chilly, and she started getting a bit spooky and tense. To help her relax and get her mind back on me, I put her on the bit, back to front, and started doing some leg yields, shoulder in to renvers, etc. She was responding so beautifully. Later when I got off, I remembered I had the bitless on. She felt exactly the same on the contact and responded at least as well if not better than with a bit so I completely forgot there wasn’t one. It was pretty cool to feel that. I’d 100% be okay with at least lower level tests allowing bitless.

[trubandloki]

@TwiSedai

I would LOVE if the dressage associations would allow at the very least no nosebands

Sincerely curious - why? A noseband can be worn loosely, so why the need for no noseband?

[atlatl]

@TwiSedai

I would LOVE if the dressage associations would allow at the very least no nosebands, but I’d also love if they allowed bitless.

For anyone that thinks you can’t have real contact with a bitless: a few days ago, I was hacking my mare out in the field. I always use my bitless on her when we hack out, it’s basically a noseband with little rings attached the the sides so it’s like a side pull. The weather was pretty drizzly and a bit chilly, and she started getting a bit spooky and tense. To help her relax and get her mind back on me, I put her on the bit, back to front, and started doing some leg yields, shoulder in to renvers, etc. She was responding so beautifully. Later when I got off, I remembered I had the bitless on. She felt exactly the same on the contact and responded at least as well if not better than with a bit so I completely forgot there wasn’t one. It was pretty cool to feel that. I’d 100% be okay with at least lower level tests allowing bitless.

Having spent many moons riding western in a bosal, I’m not getting into the whole “bitless” discussion, however you didn’t put her “on the bit” because you didn’t have a bit.

What you likely did was refocus her attention on you with bending, and that’s still a good thing. When a horse is bending at their axis, they can loosen up the poll so the head drops. But that’s just a guess as to what happened.

[SillyHorse]

@TwiSedai

I would LOVE if the dressage associations would allow at the very least no nosebands, but I’d also love if they allowed bitless.

Why should they? I’m not opposed to bitless riding. People who want to show their horses without bits should do what the western dressage people did: form your own organization and put on your own shows with whatever rules and requirements you want. It’s unreasonable to expect USEF and/or USDF to change its whole definition of dressage for you.

[Mondo]

@TwiSedai

I put her on the bit, back to front, and started doing some leg yields, shoulder in to renvers, etc.

That’s the goal! She wasn’t “on the bit” so much as you created self-carriage with your seat and legs, used lateral work and bend to help maintain it. I think that’s great! But - would you agree that she was trained using a bit and that is why you got the results you did? Because a horse that never had a bit in its mouth would not respond to your aids the way your mare did.