Rule Change making spurs optional in FEI classes; thoughts?

[enjoytheride]

How so? While I don’t think that bitless should be allowed in dressage because it is not the same outcome and you should not have contact, the same movements can indeed be performed by a horse who has never had a bit.

This is reining, but this horse has never even worn a bridle and performs collected movements while “round.” Note the head carriage during these movements despite never wearing a bridle, although it is obviously not “on the bit” and missing that component of what makes competitive dressage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQlS0MntNg&ab_channel=LukeGingerich

[SillyHorse]

@enjoytheride

This is reining, but this horse has never even worn a bridle

Gingerich says, “I have still not used any headgear during her training since I started riding her,” which is not the same as “since she’s been ridden.” Do you know whether this mare had any training prior to Gingerich having her?

[enjoytheride]

He backed the horse himself, no training beforehand. He does liberty so that transfered over well. This video is ride 7 and 8. Using these videos to show a horse can perform similar movements without a bit, not to say bit less should be legal in competitive dressage.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/woBpZAfo2MshtfNg/?mibextid=jmPrMh

[Cowboy_Girl]

That is what the 2 rein stage and the bosalita is for. There is NEVER contact with the curb.

[SillyHorse]

Thanks for that info.

[Mondo]

@enjoytheride

This is reining, but this horse has never even worn a bridle and performs collected movements while “round.” Note the head carriage during these movements despite never wearing a bridle, although it is obviously not “on the bit” and missing that component of what makes competitive dressage.

It kind of proves my point: The horse is trained. They don’t start out knowing how to carry a rider that well.

[enjoytheride]

You said that a horse who hasn’t had a bit in its mouth wouldn’t respond in the same way. This horse had been trained to respond without a bit.

[TwiSedai]

@Mondo

That’s the goal! She wasn’t “on the bit” so much as you created self-carriage with your seat and legs, used lateral work and bend to help maintain it. I think that’s great! But - would you agree that she was trained using a bit and that is why you got the results you did? Because a horse that never had a bit in its mouth would not respond to your aids the way your mare did.

Oh I agree. I used the term “on the bit” because I forgot she didn’t have a bit in, so in my head that’s what I was doing. Realized later there wasn’t one, but thought it was cool the feeling was still there. Sorry if that wasn’t clear, everyone! But yes, she was trained with a bit, and I do think that’s an important step in the process.

As for nosebands, absolutely they can be loose. I’m more thinking of horses that have sensory things there that are just more relaxed without a noseband. I’m not going to be fussed or refuse to show because we have to use bits and a noseband, by any means. I just would be fine if they weren’t required. As in, I’d be thrilled if I could take the noseband off because I don’t think my current horse particularly likes any of the ones I’ve tried on him, but it’s not such a big deal that I’ll cry about having to use one. Hope that makes sense.

[TwiSedai]

Oh Luke is just a whole other level, anyways. The things he’s done with that mare with nothing on her are incredible, I’ve been following them since he got her and started her. She was a completely blank slate, has turned into quite a nice horse. Her “dressage” work i wouldn’t call particularly correct, but it’s pretty close and still impressive. He’s married to an eventer now and is learning more about the English world, too.

[pluvinel]

@endlessclimb

The problem with the bitless bridles is when the horse is “on contact” the noseband will be tighter than what’s allowed.

Huh???

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

I agree, and I think that the folks championing bitless dressage should form their own organization with their own rules and shows.

Why???..It would seem that riding bitless would comply with ALL the DR101 Object and General Principles of Dressage that state

1. The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education.
   As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
2. These qualities are demonstrated by:
   a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
   b. The harmony, lightness, and ease of the movements;
   c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
   d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance <<<< YOU DON’T NEED A BIT FOR SUBMISSIVENESS
3. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider,

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

@SillyHorse

I agree, and I think that the folks championing bitless dressage should form their own organization with their own rules and shows.

Why???..It would seem that riding bitless would comply with the DR101 Object and General Principles of Dressage that state

1. The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education.
   As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
2. These qualities are demonstrated by:
   a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
   b. The harmony, lightness, and ease of the movements;
   c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
   d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance.
3. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider,

Why? Because, as I stated before, it’s unreasonable to expect USEF to change its definition of dressage to make a small group happy. I’ll say it again: bitless proponents should quit whining about USEF and form their own org, just like the western people have done. The western dressage people now have what they want. That’s why.

No one is stopping anyone from riding bitless. No one is forcing anyone to go to a horse show, with or without a bit. If g-you want to ride bitless at a horse show, make your own horse show.

[trubandloki]

@pluvinel

@SillyHorse

I agree, and I think that the folks championing bitless dressage should form their own organization with their own rules and shows.

Why???..It would seem that riding bitless would comply with ALL the DR101 Object and General Principles of Dressage that state

1. The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education.
   As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
2. These qualities are demonstrated by:
   a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
   b. The harmony, lightness, and ease of the movements;
   c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
   d. The acceptance of the bit, with [u]submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance**.[/u]**<<<< YOU DON’T NEED A BIT FOR SUBMISSIVENESS
3. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider,

Why not?

Why not just make your own riding organization?

I think that is a better question.

You (general) want to do dressage with out a bit. The governing body has said for a very long time now - sorry, bit is required.
Time to believe the governing body that they think a bit is required and just make your own governing body for your own organization that allows bitless.

The example of Western dressage is so very perfect. The people who wanted to dressage in western tack stopped complaining it was not allowed and moved forward with their own rules to make a great experience for all those that wanted to do western dressage. It has grown and now is available almost everywhere.

The more time you (also general) stomp your feet and insist this organization must do it because you want it, is time wasted in getting a new organization up and running and popular and taking over the whole dressage scene.

Time to stop demanding they do it, and just do it and prove to them that you were right all along.

[endlessclimb]

Unless it’s just a cavesson with rings, or a bosal, or a sidepull, most bitless bridles have some sort of mechanism that tightens the noseband or a jaw strap when a rein is pulled.

Take the Dr Cooks, as a “most common” example. If a horse is being ridden on contact in that set up, the jaw straps will not allow for 2 fingers to be inserted. If a horse gets heavy in that set up, those straps are WAY tighter than allowed.

[pluvinel]

@trubandloki

The governing body has said for a very long time now - sorry, bit is required.

We are what we were…when Baron DeCoubertain started the Modern Olympics, the only people who could ride in equestrian competitions were cavalry officers…eg., military men who used horses to go to war.

The horse cavalry is now obsolete. If the General Directives apply, why not allow a rider to demonstrate the directives in all their subtlety and elegance by riding with minimal equipment?

[trubandloki]

@pluvinel

why not allow a rider to demonstrate the directives in all their subtlety and elegance by riding with minimal equipment?

Why not start your own organization that this is the goal?

[pluvinel]

@endlessclimb

If a horse is being ridden on contact

Which begs the question of what is “contact?” The weight of the reins? Or the weight of a cinder block.

[trubandloki]

@pluvinel

@endlessclimb

If a horse is being ridden on contact

Which begs the question of what is “contact?” The weight of the reins? Or the weight of a cinder block.

You can define it anyway you want in your own organization. See how great this is?

[pluvinel]

@trubandloki

Why not start your own organization that this is the goal?

The directives are already in the USEF Rule Book for dressage…so why the need to start a new organization.

[pluvinel]

@trubandloki

You can define it anyway you want in your own organization. See how great this is?

The existing rulebook already requires contact with the current use of a bit. I am just asking, “what is contact?”